#78 F. Herder ABR Sohn, 5/8. Picked it up, curious to history, probable age etc.

Hi everybody,

I recently picked up a straight razor from an antique shop and I am curious as to how old the blade might be. It is a 5/8 Full Hollow razor, with the following inscriptions:

TANG, Side 1:
F HERDER ABR SOHN
SOLINGEN *Ace of Spades insignia*

TANG, Side 2:
*Two Keys insignia*

It came with what seems to be the original box, on which the following is imprinted:
F HERDER A Sn
Solingen

While looking around through SRP I did find some information on F. Herder, it however states nothing on the possible age of my #78 blade. ((SRP page on F. Herder, SRP forum post on a 6/8 F Herder, Page about a #78, 5/8 F. Herder. I can't deduct anything about the actual age of the blade from these posts.

http://i.imgur.com/TrdvJcrl.jpg
The case

http://i.imgur.com/6XlvC2dl.jpg
Two Key insignia

http://i.imgur.com/Q1QMlqRl.jpg
F HERDER ABR SOHN
SOLINGEN

http://i.imgur.com/XlcOVXyl.jpg
Front view.

I sincerely hope somebody from here would be able to tell me more about the blade (and perhaps F. Herder Abraham Sohn). Thanks in advance.

PS. The scales broke about a week after I had it, while trying to unpin them to look at the blade. I am going to make new scales from oak and try and restore the blade. It will be my first restoration and I'm quite excited about the whole idea.

Welcome to SRP Luco, seems like you allready found much about the history behind your razor, but furthermore by looking at the razor its shape, and materials used for scales, i would date this razor to 1880-1890, good luck in your venture to restore, keep us posted on your progress.

By the way, properly hone you will find that Herder's are fine shavers.

The lack of country of origins make the razor pryor to 1891 and in 1915 the name change to F. Herder and Sohn.

The company was established in 1727 by Peter Herder - this is when the ace of spades was registered - the oldest trademark in Germany.
1762 - company owned by Abraham Herder and Johann Peter Herder after death of Peter Herder.
When Abraham Herder's son Johann Herder (b 1761) joined the company, Abraham named it to Joh Abr. Herder & Sne.
1839 - Abraham's grandson Friedrich Herder taken on as partner.
1841 - company re-named to Friedrich Herder Abr. Sohn.
1848 - crossed keys trademark.

There were no more Herders, so the company name did not change.

1887 - Company taken over by Gustav Weyersberg.
1908 - Gustav's son Carl Weyersberg takes over company with Hermann Bick.
1927 - 'Constant' trademark for stainless steel knives.
1931 - 'Don Carlos' mark for pro knives and high carbon scissors.
1993 - company goes bankrupt with the Weyersberg and Bick families still as main shareholders.

Regarding the change of name in 1915 to "Friedrich Herder and Son' I have only seen this in one reference book on german bayonets and daggers. I have seen posts about people talking of F Herder and Son bayonets, knives, razors, etc, but when pics are supplied with the relevant posts they all have Friedrich Herder Abr. Sohn on them.

Perhaps there is an alternative mark - but why? There were no Herders in the company at that time, only Weyersbergs and Bicks. I have seen a narrow bladed dagger with 'F. Herder. A. S.' on it - perhaps someone mistook the 'A.S.' as 'and son' whereas it would more likely be 'u. S.' - 'und Sohn' or '& S' - clearly space was short on the dagger and 'A. S.' means 'Abr. Sohn'.

I'm happy to be proven wrong, though! but by pictures, not reproductions of pages from knife and sword and bayonet collectors that are merely printed. In my support here is the front page of a Herder catalogue from 1938:

Attachment 130714

The blade looks to me like it could be from the early half of the 1900s. The fact that 'Germany' is not on it does not matter - hardly any of the makers that made edged weapons for the Third Reich in WW2 appended 'Germany' - just Solingen, as witness the 'F Herder A. S.' mark from that era:

Attachment 130713

Regards,
Neil

http://straightrazorpalace.com/razor...tml#post859908

I have already read that - all it does is repeat info from other sources, it doesn't give the answer.

Regards,
Neil

That thread stirred me in the wrong direction, looking at all the trademark for F. Herder Abr. Sohn all of them are registered to Friedrich Herder Abr. Sohn, none of them for Herder & sohn. But Gustav Weyersberg and Hermann Bick were part of the Herder family, Gustav was the son of F. Herder daughter Emilie and Hermann Bick was the son of the second marriage with Emilie Herder.
Attachment 130716

Gentlemen, would Rich. Herder be a part of this family?

Yes.
http://straightrazorpalace.com/razor...tml#post879678

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Neil Miller

repeat info from other sources,

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I don't know about what sources you speak.:)
That info from my books, including Sword and Bayonet makers of Imperial Germany.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by manah

I don't know about what sources you speak.:)
That info from my books, including Sword and Bayonet makers of Imperial Germany.

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Exactly. I have the same book.

It just states what you reproduced, with nothing to substantiate it. A single line - not even a full line - of print. No examples, no reproductions of the mark, no citations. Just because it is in print doesn't mean that it is so.

Regards,
Neil

Quote:

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Just because it is in print doesn't mean that it is so.

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Possibly. But if several different sources have the similar info, it's possible to get the information near the true.

At the beginning of the thread, the razor is #78.
Here is the scan from Friedrich Herder catalog from about 1920s with #118, #13, #55.

http://manah.strazors.com/herder_cat.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by manah

Possibly. But if several different sources have the similar info, it's possible to get the information near the true.

At the beginning of the thread, the razor is #78.
Here is the scan from Friedrich Herder catalog from about 1920s with #118, #13, #55.

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I believed that Neil is talking about the name change in 1915 to F.Herder & Sohn. From the catalog page you posted from 1920 and the trademark registration from 1927 that i posted on post # 6 on this thread, seems evident that the name didnt change since both have the Friedr, Herder Abr. Sohn as the company name.

Phew - that was hard work! Thanks Martin, that's exactly what I was talking about.

Regards,
Neil

Quote:

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about the name change in 1915 to F.Herder & Sohn

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Possibly, there is a problem with translation from German - Joh. Abr. Herder & Sne. (But this company name was in the first part of 19th century).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by manah

Possibly, there is a problem with translation from German - Joh. Abr. Herder & Sne.

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There is no 'possibly' about it - that is what I was alluding to - I don't think I could make it clearer.

As for F Herder & Sohn being mistaken for Joh. Abr. Herder & Sne, that's stretching credulity to it's limits. I think only a blind person typing in braille who had never used a braille typewriter could make that sort of mistake! :)

Quite apart from that, there is the small matter of time difference too - Joh. Abr. Herder & Sne was before Friedrich changed the name in 1841. What we are talking about is a name change in 1915 -as you have now realised, since you added to your post after I quoted it.

Regards,
Neil

Quote:

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only a blind person typing in braille who had never used a braille typewriter could make that sort of mistake!

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I don't know what type of the mistake it was.
It's difficult to ask somebody, the book was published in 1973.:)
Possibly, translation.

Well, we are getting somewhere. At least we have dismissed the ridiculous proposition that it was anything to do with Joh. Abr. Herder. I really cannot see it as being a mistranslation - J does not look like an F and the & character cannot just magically appear out of the ether. I guess that a person translated what needed translating and that person would necessarily be fluent in both languages. On top of which there would have been proof reading and the authors final edit.

No, I dont buy mistranslation. Even babelfish could not make such an abysmal mistake as that!

Either the author knew something we do not (eg why a company with no one called Herder in it should change the name in this way), or he fell into the vernacular without bothering to check.

Whatever the reason, all the tang marks and all the company literature we have seen to date do not bear out a change of name in 1915.

I would be happy to be corrected, but like Dragnets Joe Friday would have said - "just give me the facts..."

Regards
Neil

It's probably my fault! :p The 70's were a bit blurry. I cannot recall how I substantiated what I wrote either!!:rofl2:

I have a Daniel Herder straight. How does this figure in? Thought there were no more Herders.

Attachment 130791

We were discussing a certain company, that there were no more Herders in that particular company does not mean that there were no more Herders left in the world!

Regards,
Neil

Affirmative, I went out today on my bicycle to get a bag of coffee beans and I'm pretty sure I saw a Herder. So there is partial confirmation of a Herder in Rockville, Maryland U.S.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Neil Miller

We were discussing a certain company, that there were no more Herders in that particular company does not mean that there were no more Herders left in the world!

Regards,
Neil

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Does anyone know anything about Daniel Herder and a date range? I read somewhere that both Ohligs and Solingen being on the tang dates it before 1920 or thereabouts .

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cezzna

Does anyone know anything about Daniel Herder and a date range? I read somewhere that both Ohligs and Solingen being on the tang dates it before 1920 or thereabouts .

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I borrowed this from a knife forum. Best I could find yet:


Attachment 130817



" The above link shows a Daniel Herder advertisement, published in Solingen in 1896.
It states the year 1810 for foundation and reads in English language:
Factory of table knives, forks. bread-, butchers’, vegetable, pocket knives, scissors etc., also for export.

It is reported that Daniel Herder ( 1770 – 1843 ) established his firm in 1810 under his own name as successor of Clemens Herder company (founded in 1770), followed by Gebrüder Herder company [Herder Broth.], who re-named his business in 1794.

Solingen directories are listing Daniel Herder as cutlery manufacturer still in1929 with the owners Alfred, Rudolph, Richard and Walter Herder at Walderstr. 34. I did not yet research for the following years.

The blade marking Ohligs should date the knife prior 1929, when this Solingen suburb merged with Solingen. Post 1929 made knives usually were marked Solingen or Solingen-Ohligs.
I assume that the knife was crafted even prior to 1929, as Daniel Herder company registered “DAHERO” as brandname for cutlery in 1925 or 1926.
The trademark of the “crown topped with a cross” has a special rank (?) in regards to the “German” 1800s trademark laws, as it was one of “public marks”.

Your link to German archieves is listing several Herder names along with the Daniel Herder one. It shows up, that some records of Daniel Herder cutler are on file for 1905 through 1958 period. In particular it says that the records are including documentation in regards to legal disputes concerning the use of the name Herder. There must have been a lot of legal disputes concerning various Herder companies. "





Regards,
Tom