Told to 'not even bother' with my Zwilling Friodur?

A while ago I got myself a Zwilling Friodur straight razor. Stainless steel and a beautiful, dark wooden handle with the word 'Friodur' and the Zwilling logo inlaid in it. I love it. Today, I wanted to get it sharpened, seeing as I don't really posses the know-how or equipment. I went to a store in Antwerp that sells all kinds of knives, razors and shaving equipment. He'll also hone and strop your razor for free. 'Marvelous', I thought. I gave him my razor, he looked at it and though he was very friendly and eager and willing to help, I immediately noticed some light disdain or contempt for the razor on his part. When I inquired as to why he gave such a reaction, he prompted that Zwilling now produces its wares in China and just isn't quality material anymore. He got to work and started honing and stropping the blade, but failed at getting it sharp. Tried again several times, but it was no good. He inspected it under the microscope and informed me that the shaving edge was in a very peculiar angle. He tried getting the angle right again, and he did, but the blade still wouldn't sharpen much. After about an hour of trying, he told me to 'not even bother, even if it does get sharp, it's going to be a crappy razor anyway'. I took his advice and not having enough money at the moment for a new straight and getting over the disappointment, I opted for a nice Merkur safety razor and some Feather razorblades.

Still, it does seem odd. I have seen almost nothing but good reviews of the Zwilling Friodur razors.. And at the cost of a €160, I think it's very pricey for a blade that 'isn't even halfway decent'. What are your opinions on this?

Honestly, I don't know anything about the new Friodurs. My "old" one is a great shaver and always take an excellent edge (in fact it has only taken 3 edges over the years since it is quite durable).

In the absence of any other data, I would suggest getting it honed by someone who specialises in honing straight razors. I'm not saying your guy is wrong, but a second opinion from a specialist is always a good idea.

There are quite a few people in Europe who specialise in honing straights - Birnando in Norway, Neil Miller in the UK, for example. Take a look at the member services honing section to see who's available in your neck of the woods. If you don't mind sending it way overseas, Lynn Abrams, Gssixgun, Maximillian, etc are all experts too (just to name a few). I'd be more than happy to look at it for you also, but I am in Australia and the postage and time may make it prohibitive.

Good luck and I hope it works out for you.

James.

Yes, Henckels do have knives manufactured in places other than Germany. The other countries that come to mind are China and Spain currently and at one time Brazil. I do not believe that Current Henckels straight razors are made anywhere else than in Germany. The country of origin must be marked on the blade. The kitchen knife I bought was clearly marked Spain. Does your razor say Germany, I'll bet it does?

I have an older Friodur that takes and holds a very good edge. I don't want to be too blunt but I agree with Jimbo that you should if possible get somebody who specializes in SR honing to do the job.

Bob

Friodurs are among my best shaving razors. I have 5 vintage Friodurs, two of them are from the vintage 7/8 blanks that were ground and scaled fairly recently. All mine take a long lasting edge, are not difficult to strop and hone, and they shave well for me.

Perhaps more information will surface if you can provide pictures and information about your razor's markings and source of your Friodur. Is it marked made in China? All mine are marked Zwillingwerk Solingen.

I also suggest a second opinion from an experienced honemeister who has honed Friodurs as they are popular mid priced razors on the resale market and hold their value well.

HTH

I have heard the new ones are not quite as good as the old, but they are still decent razors. We are talking good instead of really good. Get someone else to hone it.

I took another look at the blade, and it clearly says 'Germany' and 'Germany Solingen' on it, both sides. I also noticed that the shaving edge, the little strip you see lighting up when held under a lamp, of the blade goes from thin to wider on both sides, with the narrow side down on one side and up on the other side. Yet again something I find very weird.

I think I will look for a second opinion, yes. The uneven shaving edge is only there since I've gotten it honed this afternoon. The shopowner did seem to know what he was doing though. Even organizes workshops about taking care of your straight razor. Really, I don't want the judge the man too harshly, he did try his best for about an hour long and even gave me a discount on the DE razor and the Feather blades, just because he thought it was a shame about my razor. He didn't have to since I didn't buy the Zwilling from him.

I don't think there are any issues with the razor. The issue is with the alleged honer.

is your Friodur new production or vintage?
I have heard the new ones are not that great. The vintage Friodurs are top notch razors, however.

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

I don't think there are any issues with the razor. The issue is with the alleged honer.

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This was my feeling reading the thread, though, to be fair, we need some pictures. It just doesn't seem that I've read any real complaints about the new products, and the reputation of the vintage is top-notch.

I never heard of any problems with them new or old, he may have had a bad honing day and blamed the razor.
Guess we all have those days, tho I try to keep from blaming my hones and razors.

Any pics of it, maybe some close ups of the edge?
We all love pics!

It sounds like you never really shaved with this razor. I'd say the jury is still out on it. Could be good, could be problematic, could be slightly warped, could be it was too challenging for that particular sharpening guy.
I'd say, like everybody else suggested, your best option is to find somebody else with a lot of experience restoring and honing razors (those have much more severe problems than new ones) and try again.
As far as the stamp on the razor, my understanding is that these days the requirements are not what they used to be. I have somewhere a modern made razor shaped object with a stamp solingen, germany and you can find plenty of them on ebay all the time.

But frankly, the point of these big companies is that they should get out consistent quality regardless of where the production happens. I am absolutely certain that if they wish, Henckels can produce the exact same quality of cutlery in pakistan as they can in solingen. But that doesn't mean it would be profitable to do so.

There's another big razor company in Solingen with the abbreviation GF - you don't read much about their current production razors for a reason. But their vintage stuff is simply great solingen steel. So, things definitely can change.

I just honed one of these this week. Yes there was a slight warp which was obvious in uneven bevels & yes it took some work to get a good edge on it. Note I didn't say a great edge, like the vintage ones but unless you've shaved with both the sensation is hard to quantify. What I'm saying is it didn't simply hone up easily without some lateral thinking & a change to normal routine.
I don't know your razor is beyond hope but a second opinion is always worth a try. Sending it to one of the gentlemen already mentioned would be a good next step.
In defence of your Antwerp honer I might also have given up if I was doing it for free. ;)

Well the Antwerp honer said it was made in China. Is the razor stamped 'Solingen' on the tang, etched as such on the blade ? At one time it was a seal of good craftsmanship. I'm not sure what the status is nowadays. :gl:

All I can say is that I really feel bad about your predicament. I have two Friodurs and they are both exceptional razors. One was honed by a pro (thank you Stefan) the other by me. They both took great edges and shave really well. But I'm sure that this does you no good to hear how well I'm getting along with MY razors. Give it another go with someone who is known to be good at honing razors. You don't want to give up too soon and find out later that it could have been saved.

Hey everyone! A massive thanks for the help I'm getting!

Gugi: true, I only shaved with it a couple of times. But since it didn't get any stropping, it lost its edge and I didn't use it much anymore. That was about 4 years ago. I didn't know where to go with it to get it honed and stropped. Went to various hairdressers and barbers, but they uniformly used the Dovo Shavette. So I kind of gave up and kept on using crappy cartridges. Yeah, I know, shame on me.

I got the razor from my 94-year-old great-aunt who's like a grandmother to me. She gave it to me for my eighteenth birthday as part of 'becoming a man'. I didn't use it much, but it does have a large sentimental value to me. Hence why I was so very disappointed when the shopowner told me the razor was basically useless. As far as I know, she bought it directly from Demeyere, a factory that produces and sells high-quality cooking wares and works together with Zwilling. They are the distributors for Zwilling in Belgium. She specifically bought Zwilling because that's what the men in our family used in past generations, knowing the excellent quality of the razors.

I took some pictures and hope this helps you guys out.

http://i40.tinypic.com/2iu6la1.jpg
http://i40.tinypic.com/19y3b8.jpg
http://i39.tinypic.com/28t2bl.jpg
http://i42.tinypic.com/b4vvpy.jpg
http://i43.tinypic.com/3fzub.jpg
http://i44.tinypic.com/2yljlue.jpg
http://i41.tinypic.com/33dcc9u.jpg

If more pictures are needed of other details, just let me know.

Oh, and I did make a slight translational error: the logo and the word aren't inlaid, it's just painted on.

My guess is that the stainless used in the razor is pretty hard and the honer didn't understand how much work is sometimes required to hone a stainless steel razor.

Hi,

I happen to know the store & owner you're talking about. With all due respect, but he's not the greatest specialist out there as far as honing is concerned. I'm certain he'd have trouble honing some of the Dovo's he's selling as well.

Personally I don't think that razor was made in China. There could be issues with the edge, but it should be possible to get it shave-ready. So you have to get it to someone who can help you out. Now, I'm out of that game because I just don't have the time anymore. 1Barber in Jodoigne has a honing service (and Gregory, the owner, does know how to hone). Alternatively, maybe Bart from coticule.be still does free honings. This would require you to make yourself a member of coticule.be and apply for the one-time free honing. Browse the benelux section, maybe you'll find other adresses there.

Now, it is true that the current production is not of the same quality as vintage. Therefore it would have been better to buy a vintage Henckels Friodur.

And 160 EUR is way too expensive for that razor !

Where are you exactly from, by the way ?

Cheers,
Wim

It is etched Solingen, which used to be a sure sign of quality. As gugi said, maybe not as much now as it was. Anyway, I would bet a really good honer could bring it up to speed. Hard to tell from photos because reflections can distort the apparent image, but looking at that spine and bevel I'd say the honing was sub par. See if there is a knowledgeable SRP honer in your neck of the woods, or close enough to send it out.

Thankyou for the pictures, they are very helpful. The razor shown is different from any of my Friodurs. On my vintage factory stock razors, the scales are a textured ivory colored plastic with the Friodur and twin logo made of a thin metal inlayed into the plastic. The blades have the shank trade mark information deeply impressed into the metal.

Your photos show a razor with the twin logo and Friodur painted onto wooden scales and the blade trade mark information lightly etched onto the shank surface. I have no information about Friodurs made like your razor, perhaps other members will know this razor.

I have attached an image obtained from the web of a typical vintage Friodur showing the common scales with inlays and the shank trade mark impression. Please note that Friodurs are made in different blade widths, point styles, and shoulder styles. Many Friodurs have no red paint in the shank trade mark impressions, and the exact words and style (single twins verses double twins) chosen by Henckels for their trade mark impressions do vary somewhat.

If you would like to shave with your razor, I still recommend a second opinion consult with a person experienced honing Friodurs, especially given the sentimental value associated with this blade.

HTH

Decraew: I looked up some information about the razor, and €150-160 does seem to be the price they ask in most places. Right now I'm thinking about asking the people at 1Barber in Jodoigne to try and touch it up.

I'm from Grobbendonk, a village near Herentals. :)

Ah, close to me then ! There's another member, Geut/Dieter who lives in Retie. You may want to check with him if you want to visit 1Barber.

Actually, I was talking about vintage Friodurs. They are better qualitatively and can be bought in Germany at really good prices if you're patient and keep on the look-out, meaning less than 50 EUR for a 5/8". I've seen the prices for new Zwillings and imho, they're not worth it. I paid less than 160 EUR for this one here, which is a blade of top quality:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-9...fAust00.41.jpg

See you around, neighbour !
Wim

I too believe the honer did not have much experience in honing a stainless steel razor. It is not like honing a carbon steel razor.
I have some Henckels Friodur and, like the other gentlemen said, they absolutely are top notch razors. Very durable edge and excellent shavers.

Decraew: No, Duffel and Retie aren't far away at all! It's a small world after all, eh?

I think I'll keep on the look-out then. Seeing how honing and stropping the blade is €25, maybe some shipping costs as well.. just waiting it out until I have saved up some cash and find a neat deal seems like a better idea. In the mean time, I'm very much enjoying the Merkur DE razor as well, so there isn't really any hurry. :)

Razorguy: so honing the blade on a relatively coarse stone for about an hour, doing about 20 passes at a time isnt't that uncommon? He gave because he thought it was taking way, way too long.

Hi Satyr,

you got pm.

Greetings
Dimitry

The time it takes depends on many things - for example how coarse the coarse stone is. You could conceivably spend several hours on some razors if your coarse stone is only 4K, for example. And of course it depends on where the edge is as well.

Sometimes, on difficult razors, it's worth coming back to it and redoing some of the honing as well. I've done that on a few - did an initial honing, test shaved the edge, and then went back to the stones to try again. Often that little break in proceedings, coupled with the information you get from testing it, is enough to tip the scales in your favour. Sometimes honing can be "trial and error".

But in any event, it sounds as though you've got a plan so good luck to you!

James.

Can somebody please send me one of these "Difficult, Different, Hard to Hone" Stainless Steel razors so I too can experience what all the hubbub is about with SS..
I have yet to experience this tremendous difference between Carbon and Stainless, I have read about it but haven't seen it :shrug:

I honestly haven't honed enough of the New Friodurs to form an opinion really, maybe 3-4 since they came out.. Don't remember anything especially good or bad during honing them...

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Originally Posted by Satyr

Razorguy: so honing the blade on a relatively coarse stone for about an hour, doing about 20 passes at a time isnt't that uncommon? He gave because he thought it was taking way, way too long.

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According to my experience, one hour honing in a relatively coarse stone means excessively flattening both the spine and the edge.
I personally honed my Friodurs and in two of them I also had to reset the bevel. I guess it took me about one hour to get the job done. Of course, it depends on the condition of the blade and of the bevel. And by looking at the pictures you posted, your Friodur does not seem to be in bad conditions.
I however started with a 3k stone and after that used a 8k. Finish was done with chromium oxide. In case the bevel is in a truly bad condition, I guess you could use a 1k stone and however not for an hour!
In my experience, carbon steel is easier to hone than stainless steel, the latter taking longer, but however not more difficult than carbon steel. I use the very same technique.
As for keeping the edge, I find very useful for stainless steel blades to use a Chinese stone from time to time when it starts to pull.
Mastro Livi recently told me the best way to keep the edge of a stainless steel blade is to strop it with chromium oxide as soon as it starts to pull.

Satyr,

Take a look at the second to last picture - there is pitting on the edge, so we're talking restoration, not just honing. Then the honewear on the spine is quite bad - on one side it's heavy at the front and the bevel there is very narrow, on the other side it's heavy at the back and the bevel there is narrow.

Regardless of how this state happened - warped razor or uneven honing (less likely) it will be challenging to get the razor properly honed. It's doesn't seem impossible but it needs a person with experience (see my previous post - now that we have the pictures that's spot on).

I bet the issues with the razor are not in the steel, but in that terrible geometry.

The blade looks similar to one I have. Mine came with black plastic scales but overall same razor.

I've tried sharpening this razor and it was average at best. I've had a few other people try to sharpen it also but no real luck.

I've tried to figure out what the problem was but all I can really come up with is bad steel quality.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by basil

The blade looks similar to one I have. Mine came with black plastic scales but overall same razor.

I've tried sharpening this razor and it was average at best. I've had a few other people try to sharpen it also but no real luck.

I've tried to figure out what the problem was but all I can really come up with is bad steel quality.

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I found 20 rather than 5-10 stokes on .5 diamond spray/felt turned the tide for me on the one I did the other day. I would normally not do that much but you have to think outside the box at times.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Can somebody please send me one of these "Difficult, Different, Hard to Hone" Stainless Steel razors so I too can experience what all the hubbub is about with SS..
I have yet to experience this tremendous difference between Carbon and Stainless, I have read about it but haven't seen it :shrug:

I honestly haven't honed enough of the New Friodurs to form an opinion really, maybe 3-4 since they came out.. Don't remember anything especially good or bad during honing them...

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I've spent way more time on some hard to hone carbon razors than any stainless razor.