Another "date this Wade and Butcher" thread

I just got this in the mail and I was hoping someone could help me with the date. I know it's a pre 1890's as it only has the Sheffield stamp without the England following. The only markings are on the tang stamp which reads "Manufactured by Wade and Butcher Sheffield." Outside of that there isn't any other kind of identiftying marks. If I remember correctly, W&B started getting big on hollow blades around the 1870's. I figured it might be earlier than that since it isn't anywhere near a hollow. So, anyone have an idea on this?

Attachment 132473Attachment 132474Attachment 132475

Thanks a bunch.

Cheers

They continued producing meaty wedges well after 1900, actually.

However, those large washers on the scales are a slightly better indicator. Unfortunately, the whole span from about 1850 to 1880 is very hard to get precise with. In the absence of some other stamp or etching that can help pinpoint (like with razors made for a particular store or person), a guess is as good as you can do, and 1870 is a good guess.

From what im seeing i agree with +- 1870 a picture of the tail might yield different results.

As embarassing as this sounds, I didn't look at the blade with a very careful eye and missed that there is an etching. It is incredibly faint and I can make out a shield, and what looks like some lettering going around the top of the blade. Nothing else shows up well on the camera. Does this help at all?

Attachment 132487

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jonah

As embarassing as this sounds, I didn't look at the blade with a very careful eye and missed that there is an etching. It is incredibly faint and I can make out a shield, and what looks like some lettering going around the top of the blade. Nothing else shows up well on the camera. Does this help at all?

Attachment 132487

---

I agree, it looks like a crest of some kind with writing around it, but it's not legible to me.

You might take a piece of 1000 or 2000 grit sandpaper, wrap it around a broom handle and use that to lightly sand the surface. Go slow and gentle and you might make the design pop out a little more.

This is a rough sketch of what the etching looks like Attachment 132488

The lettering above the left shield/crest looks like it spell "George" but it is hard to tell. I'll probably do as Voidmonster suggested but I'll start on the heel and see if that clears anything up. I'm mighty curious as to what it could be.

I never use sandpaper for stuff like that. I prefer 000 or 0000 synthetic steel wool with MAAS. It will get of the black stuff (with patience) but won't remove metal. But, then again, I am overly cautious with many things.

I have some 000 steel wool as well as Mothers. I thought about going over it with the Mothers but I wasn't sure if it would remove the etching. I haven't done anything to the blade yet and I'm definitely still open for suggestions.

Robert A Doyle's book says that etching of that type began around 1830 and became popular. George might be Washington ....... they made a lot of razors with USA attractive etchings since they imported many of their razors. Not sure when they slowed up on full blade (belly) etchings ?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Robert A Doyle's book says that etching of that type began around 1830 and became popular. George might be Washington ....... they made a lot of razors with USA attractive etchings since they imported many of their razors. Not sure when they slowed up on full blade (belly) etchings ?

---

I'm pretty sure that etching was this one:

Attachment 132499

It's a bit hard to make out (I nabbed it from an auction archive site), but you can sort of see that it's a sideways portrait of Washington. There aren't any coat of arms on it.

It's be a great pity to get rid of the patination on that, in my opinion. I'd also ensure I used tape on the spine when I honed it. It looks like you may need to remove a little bit from the edge as it appears quite uneven. The steel on older razors can be quite soft...

Jonah, in my opinion, the etching looks a lot like the shield from the royal arms of Great Britain i.e. the UK. In the left bottom quarter you can just make out the Irish harp and the top left and bottom right quarters bear the 3 lions of England. I'm willing to bet that the top right quarter has the lion rampant of Scotland. So, what does this mean - that it was made for the royal family? Not a chance, it's just a manufacturer claiming the royal warrant. USAans may not be familiar with the words "by appointment to his (her) majesty" and other variants such as the "Prince of Wales" etc. Us Aussies and Canadians will all have seen this on anything from biscuit tins to hair brushes. i would not be at all surprised if an old and respected firm like W&B didn't score at least one royal warrant in their long history. You could try researching to find when the right to use the royal arms was granted to the company - that could give the earliest date the razor could have been made.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Maladroit

Jonah, in my opinion, the etching looks a lot like the shield from the royal arms of Great Britain i.e. the UK.

---

You are absolutely right about that. Attachment 132523

This is the best picture I could (and probably can) get.


Attachment 132524

The red arrow marks the crest for the royal coat of arms, though it is just the shield itself. The blue arrow points to another shield, though it looks like it just has vertical lines running on it. The green arrow points to what looks like a man, but that's just my opinion. I circled in purple on the top left where it looks like George is written. I am dying to know what the whole blade looks like. This seems to be a case for the Hardy Boys.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that the second shield is that of the United States. It should have 13 alternating vertical stripes of red and white - the red being represented in engraving (etching in this case) by closely ruled lines. What we seem to have is an image of the arms of the two countries on crossed flagpoles or lances (with furled flags) surmounted by an eagle or other winged creature. The figure in the centre is probably meant to be bearing the flags. I don't think it means W&B were claiming royal endorsement, just the kinship of the two great English speaking nations - or something along those lines.

I hope you can do a sympathetic restoration that keeps the etch and the scales. It's a great razor!

Not that I'm complaining under any stretch, but I had no idea what I was getting into when I bought the razor. I'm kind of torn as far as what to do with it. The scales...or scale I should say is not salvageable. The washers aren't perfect but can most likely be saved. As carlmalo pointed out, the blade is a little rough towards the heel. Then of course, the biggest matter is what to do with the face of the blade. Part of me does want to keep the patina on, and the other part of me wants to get it off to show the etching. Even if I only used some Mother's, there is no guarantee the etching would be intact. The good news is I don't need to make a decision just yet :gl:

After debating what the best course of action is, I'm thinking I will probably sell this razor as is. I don't know that I would call it a historical piece per se, but I am confident in saying it is pretty rare. I feel that sharpening it for my own sake and removing the (shot to hell and back) scales would be doing a disservice to the razor. The opportunity cost of me holding onto it is not letting it go to a person who can truly appreciate all the razor is. I know that ebay isn't necessarily the most noble of ways to sell the razor, but I think it will get the most exposure there. So, it will most likely end up where I got it.

Thank you everyone for the advice and offerings, I really appreciate it.

Cheers

Jonah a possible find for the etching on your razor. The etching on this one reads "Commerce, Freedom & Strenght United"

Attachment 132968


Actually im pretty positive this is it.

Attachment 132970

Yep! Nail on the head, Martin! :tu


Attachment 132971

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Martin103

"Commerce, Freedom & Strenght United"

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sharptonn

Yep! Nail on the head, Martin! :tu


Attachment 132971

---

Mighty find detective work, gentleman. For sake of keeping the character of the razor, I don't think I'm going to do anything to it. Almost a shame, that etching is reaaaaalllll purdy. Does that etching help narrow down the production date?

Well, it is proclaiming a partnership with the U.S. and England. I suspect things like this go with centennials. I would guess the 1880's at latest.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sharptonn

Yep! Nail on the head, Martin! :tu

---

You had one all this time! :banghead: :gaah: :rant:

Pretty neat stuff! The idea of a partnership/unity sounds like a novel idea. I lived in the UK for six months, and current day Brits aren't overly fond of Americans :boohoo:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Martin103

You had one all this time! :banghead: :gaah: :rant:

---

I thought the same thing :ziplip:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jonah

I thought the same thing :ziplip:

---

Yeah really i havent slept a wink since the original post trying to figure out this etch and Tom was home probably shaving with his.:aargh:



Goodnight.... Attachment 132972

Bet he was laughing all the way to the bank :w

Ha! Not necessarily to the bank! Pretty common etch, there is one in the "butcher shop" club which is frosted on.
It kept nagging me until Martin hit it. "Hey! I have that!" :)

Is it really that common? Most of us were left scratching our heads and the view counter was looking pretty hefty.

For anyone interested in acquring this blade, I posted listed the razor on the bay. It can be viewed here - Wade and Butcher Straight Razor RARE Etching Pre 1890 | eBay

Thank you everyone who contributed in this thread, I really appreciate all the time/effort/sleepless nights.

Cheers

Know this is an old, really old thread, but thanks guys, I just bought a W&B off of eBay and it has those markings. It is a 7/8 wedge. It is very light but you can still make out some of the words and the eagle is still visible. So 1880's is the time frame????