Noobie in trouble!

I must be going wrong somewhere along the line with using the safety razor, and i'm not sure what it is. Firstly, I wash my face with hot water for 5 minutes and then I use the proraso pre-shave cream, and then hot water again for a few minutes. I then lather the soap up until I have small peaks on the brush, and lather my face for 1 minute. Next I shave with the grain all over (trying to keep a 30 degree angle), and then washing the soap off and re-lather. I then go from my ear in wards across the face, and do the same on the neck etc. I might then go outwards towards my ear. The last pass is against the grain (by this stage the brush bristle irritate my skin a little), should I shave against the grain? If I don't then I still have loads of stubble left. And looking at my face now I can see what looks like stubble, but running my finger of it and it feels smooth. I'm at a bit of a loss :| Is it just the case i'm unlucky enough to have dark hair that still shows ?

Couple of things to think about as well as try. Remember you need to use light pressure and it sounds like you need to stretch your skin more.

It takes time to get proficient with a DE or a straight and as your technique gets better so will your shaves. From the sound of your post I would be inclined to think your not stretching your skin effectively. From The SRP WIKI "Stretching the skin with the direction of the hair growth, causes the whiskers to lay down more. Stretching the skin against the direction of the hair growth, causes the whiskers to stand up more." This makes a huge difference shaving with any type of razor.

Also angles are more of a guide with time you will learn the right angle for each area of your face, and what works for your particular beard pattern. Don't go crazy with angles as this can be dangerous but in time you will learn to feel if your at the right angle during your stroke.

If it where me I would learn to get a good 2 pass shave before I went to the three pass. Learn how to use angels and stretch the skin with a two pass shave, when you get to the point of no irritation from a two pass shave then go ahead and add in the third pass. Of course thats just my feelings.

One other items with a DE is the blades themselves, there are many different blades and some work better for some then others. You may need to find a blade that feels right for your beard.


Take your time and enjoy the shaves in time you will get that DFS you are searching for.

What is your skin type? Perhaps you are over doing the hot water and lather a bit. I personally love prorasso pre shave, but I do find that the menthol will burn my face and irritate if I use it more than once in my shave routine. The excessive time spent washing your face in hot water could be a cause for irritation as well, I don't think washing any part of your body for 5 minutes is any good for your skin. 1 minute of working in lather into your face also seems long to me. I personally had an issue where I gave
My entire face a chemical burn from over working the lather into my face. Do not push the bristles too hard into your face, just enough pressure to open the bristles and release the lather is what I find best. And lastly is pressure and skin stretching. Lightest pressure possible will bring the best results. If you feel you have to fight the razor through the stubble it's time to change blades or re-assess your angle of approach. Like aircoder said, there are a lot of factors at play here. But firstly I would limit the hot water usage and lather to a minimum.

+1 to the hot water. Try a cold shave. I have a very stubborn and ingrown hair prone beard with sensitive skin. When I was learning to use a straight and DE I had loads of issues with stubble. Try using ice cold, or as cold as you can, water. It tends to stand that stubble up. Also I read in an old barbers manual (there is a link on here somewhere) that a splash of Bay Rum can help stand whiskers up and strip off their oil making them supposedly easier to cut. YMMV but thats what I would do. Oh ya and really pay attention to stretching your skin. Also you may want to do a beard map so you can make a better plan of attack.

Good luck and have fun !!

Thanks guys!If I limit it to a 2 pass shave its going to look like I have not shaved, but will give that a go. I may have over exaggerated the hot water time but use it as thats what everyone suggests, will try less tomorrow and abit of cold water too. My skin is super sensitive, with very suborn stubble from the Greek side of my family! I have some Derby blades that I have yet to try so they will be next.

Light pressure and correct angle are everything with a safety razor and as others have said, try stretching and if you have an adjustable razor step it up one click more aggressive. Also as others have said your pre shave prep might be overly aggressive, try wash and rinse with hot water and a hot towel for a minute or so.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AledJ

If I don't then I still have loads of stubble left. And looking at my face now I can see what looks like stubble, but running my finger of it and it feels smooth. I'm at a bit of a loss :| Is it just the case i'm unlucky enough to have dark hair that still shows ?

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Does "what looks like stubble, but [...] feels smooth" look the same right after the shave or 20-30 minutes after the shave?

My understanding (and personal experience) is that the use of warmth (water, towel...) makes your facial hair more visible, more out, more exposed... (I'm not sure how to say it); which is of course one objective: so that you can shave even closer. But then, as your face cools (with cold water and with time), your facial hair get less visible, less out, less exposed...

So that what may look like a so-so shave right after finishing the shave, may actually be a really good-looking shave 20-30 minutes after...


I think my point is that: if you only care about looking closely shaved (for work for example), then, even now at your skill level, you may not need to do so many passes... In my case, when I started, I was doing 5 passes a shave, because I wanted to look perfectly shaved at the end of the shave. But soon after I realized, I could go with only 1 or 2 passes, and look perfectly shaved when I arrive at work...


cheers

Quote:

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Originally Posted by christophe

Does "what looks like stubble, but [...] feels smooth" look the same right after the shave or 20-30 minutes after the shave?

My understanding (and personal experience) is that the use of warmth (water, towel...) makes your facial hair more visible, more out, more exposed... (I'm not sure how to say it); which is of course one objective: so that you can shave even closer. But then, as your face cools (with cold water and with time), your facial hair get less visible, less out, less exposed...

So that what may look like a so-so shave right after finishing the shave, may actually be a really good-looking shave 20-30 minutes after...


I think my point is that: if you only care about looking closely shaved (for work for example), then, even now at your skill level, you may not need to do so many passes... In my case, when I started, I was doing 5 passes a shave, because I wanted to look perfectly shaved at the end of the shave. But soon after I realized, I could go with only 1 or 2 passes, and look perfectly shaved when I arrive at work...


cheers

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I understand what your saying you hit the nail on the head! Looked at my face a few moments ago using a 8x mirror, and it does not look as bad as I thought it did. Although I have some what looks like stubble where I normal don't. The good thing about today's shave is I had two small nicks, which is an improvement over the nasty nick I had yesterday.

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Originally Posted by AledJ

I must be going wrong somewhere along the line with using the safety razor, and i'm not sure what it is. Firstly, I wash my face with hot water for 5 minutes and then I use the proraso pre-shave cream, and then hot water again for a few minutes. I then lather the soap up until I have small peaks on the brush, and lather my face for 1 minute. Next I shave with the grain all over (trying to keep a 30 degree angle), and then washing the soap off and re-lather. I then go from my ear in wards across the face, and do the same on the neck etc. I might then go outwards towards my ear. The last pass is against the grain (by this stage the brush bristle irritate my skin a little), should I shave against the grain? If I don't then I still have loads of stubble left. And looking at my face now I can see what looks like stubble, but running my finger of it and it feels smooth. I'm at a bit of a loss :| Is it just the case i'm unlucky enough to have dark hair that still shows ?

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Does not sound like trouble to me.
Whiskers grow from deep down in the skin. If you have light
skin and dark whiskers a shadow is normal. In 40 years your
whiskers will be white like mine so this will not be an issue forever. :dropjaw:

Or get a good tan... :idea: the sun bleaches hair and browns skin.

I would lighten up on the hot water wash and shave prep.
Hot water causes skin to swell and get thicker. Think wrinkled
pruned fingers after swimming or soaking for a while.

There are two parts -- skin, whiskers.
You want to soak the whiskers to soften them but
not over soak the skin. But they are joined... so it
is a timing and balancing act.

Try a quick 20 second face lather followed by a good rinse
with cold/cool water. For the next 1-3 min build a thick
and deluxe lather in a bowl. Then paint that lather on
your face and shave. For me I like my skin to almost dry
then I lather. The base of the whiskers dry slowest (I think)
so the skin drys while the whiskers soften. I said 1-3 min
so try 1 then 2 then three min and see what works.

First pass will nick whiskers if it does not chop them off.
A second lather will continue to soften whiskers for a second
pass.

You are not alone.... this is why the multiple blade monsters
are so popular. But those monsters are the cause of discomfort
for some of us.

If you have thick, dark whiskers and fair skin, there will be a shadow. Unless you've used other shaving methods and had better results, I doubt that it is anything you are doing wrong. Plenty of guys have a light shadow (myself included), even when well shaved. That said, you could *try* a sharper blade, a second ATG pass, etc and see if it helps a bit. Also, try a softer brush (sounds like you are using boar, which I personally like, but which isn't as soft as a horse or a higher end synthetic or badger) Some guys get brush burn from scritchy brushes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by niftyshaving

Does not sound like trouble to me.
Whiskers grow from deep down in the skin. If you have light
skin and dark whiskers a shadow is normal. In 40 years your
whiskers will be white like mine so this will not be an issue forever. :dropjaw:

Or get a good tan... :idea: the sun bleaches hair and browns skin.

I would lighten up on the hot water wash and shave prep.
Hot water causes skin to swell and get thicker. Think wrinkled
pruned fingers after swimming or soaking for a while.

There are two parts -- skin, whiskers.
You want to soak the whiskers to soften them but
not over soak the skin. But they are joined... so it
is a timing and balancing act.

Try a quick 20 second face lather followed by a good rinse
with cold/cool water. For the next 1-3 min build a thick
and deluxe lather in a bowl. Then paint that lather on
your face and shave. For me I like my skin to almost dry
then I lather. The base of the whiskers dry slowest (I think)
so the skin drys while the whiskers soften. I said 1-3 min
so try 1 then 2 then three min and see what works.

First pass will nick whiskers if it does not chop them off.
A second lather will continue to soften whiskers for a second
pass.

You are not alone.... this is why the multiple blade monsters
are so popular. But those monsters are the cause of discomfort
for some of us.

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I will try a different pre-shave as you and other have suggested to see if it helps! When I have shaved I can see some the in grown hair, and it looks like it grows side ways under the skin.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sargon

If you have thick, dark whiskers and fair skin, there will be a shadow. Unless you've used other shaving methods and had better results, I doubt that it is anything you are doing wrong. Plenty of guys have a light shadow (myself included), even when well shaved. That said, you could *try* a sharper blade, a second ATG pass, etc and see if it helps a bit. Also, try a softer brush (sounds like you are using boar, which I personally like, but which isn't as soft as a horse or a higher end synthetic or badger) Some guys get brush burn from scritchy brushes.

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I have a real badge hair brush but may look other at ones. If I don't do a ATG pass then there's plenty of hair left (may angle issue?), if I do then I tend to get razor bumps/burn. When I shave today I'll slow my shave right down as I may making too many passes. Will see if I can limit the shave to 3 passes.

One last question- If my hair grows at an angle on my neck on one side, what is the best way to shave it?

Well today's shave was not that much better! I tried to do just two passes but still had bits that were missed, and having trouble getting a 30 degree angle on the neck. Can't really judge it :| And the badger brush started to irritate my skin a little after the 3rd time of applying it.

Im sorry to hear that! What products where you using before you started your new routine? May I suggest you go back to the old products for a shave and see if that makes a difference. May be a allergic reaction to one of the new products you are using. You can always rule that out then find out which product it is by elimination. If that turns out to be the case there are tons of other product to choose from. But I would try and go back to what you know works to find out if thats the case. So use just your old shaving cream for 1 shave and see how that goes.

Just a thought.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AledJ

Well today's shave was not that much better! I tried to do just two passes but still had bits that were missed, and having trouble getting a 30 degree angle on the neck. Can't really judge it :| And the badger brush started to irritate my skin a little after the 3rd time of applying it.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by aircoder

Im sorry to hear that! What products where you using before you started your new routine? May I suggest you go back to the old products for a shave and see if that makes a difference. May be a allergic reaction to one of the new products you are using. You can always rule that out then find out which product it is by elimination. If that turns out to be the case there are tons of other product to choose from. But I would try and go back to what you know works to find out if thats the case. So use just your old shaving cream for 1 shave and see how that goes.

Just a thought.

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I have been using Taylor of Old Bond Street Sandalwood Shaving Cream, but will try the Proraso cream and Derby blade again. Not sur how good my shave was before but will go back to the other products, and then see what happens.

edit: Although I still have a little razor burn I seem to have had a better shave looking at it now! I'm not sure what I can do about the in-grown hair, maybe a chemical peal....... I don't know. Or maybe i'm unfortunate to have light screen, and very dark hair :|

I don't know about the ingrown hairs since I don't experience those but I do have light colored sensitive skin, dark hair, and my beard grows very flat. I've been DE shaving for about 1.5 months now. I have learned I have to make extra sure to stretch my skin good each pass to get an evenly cut beard. Then I do 3 passes being VERY careful to not use pressure on my razor. I do one WTG pass and two XTG in opposite directions. If you HAVE to use any pressure then you need to work on angle, skin stretching, or blade choice. If I want a BBS shave then I will sometimes brave an ATG pass but I am sure to get irritation.

Angle just takes practice and you will eventually be able to feel the right angle, even on your neck. Be sure to stretch the skin in the opposite direction from where the hair grows. And some people's hair grows in various directions in different spots on their beard so if your hair grows in a bunch of different directions this may be a bit of a problem. As for blade choice, get a sampler pack and try a bunch of different blades. There's really no other way to choose a blade than trial and error.

Finally, I have recently been on a buying spree on ebay and at the local antique and thrift stores. I found that for me personally the Gillette Super Speed gives me the best balance of irritation free shave and efficient hair removal. The Gillette Tech is a very mild razor and coupled with a sharp blade did a decent job with no irritation but I had to do an ATG pass to get there. The SS gave me a good shave with only 3 passes (1 WTG and 2 XTG in opposite directions).

The razors I have tried and my impressions:

Merkur HD: My first DE razor - moderate aggressiveness, easy to get bad irritation by pressing too hard. Also, as long as I remember not to apply pressure, the weight of this razor cuts really good. Fairly easy to find the right angle.

Gillette NEW open comb: A little more aggressive than my Merkur HD. I tried it once and was scared to try it again. I will try it again some day with a duller blade like a Derby.

Gillette Tech: Very mild razor. I tried it with a Crystal blade and it didn't want to even cut ATG. I had to use a sharper blade for this one to work for me. It is ok with an Astra but I have to do an ATG pass to get as close as I want. That added a touch of irritation and some extra time. Angle is closer to perpendicular than the Merkur HD or the Super Speed.

Gillette Super Speed (early model with the taller head): moderate aggressiveness, will leave weepers if I'm not careful. Very smooth and comfortable feeling while shaving though. Even though it is aggressive and will leave weepers I don't get as much irritation as I get with my Merkur, it just feels more refined. I didn't have to touch up as much either. The angle is similar to my Merkur. This is my new FAVORITE. I will try it with a duller blade next (maybe a derby) to see if I can get less weepers and totally irritation free.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AledJ

Well today's shave was not that much better! I tried to do just two passes but still had bits that were missed, and having trouble getting a 30 degree angle on the neck. Can't really judge it :| And the badger brush started to irritate my skin a little after the 3rd time of applying it.

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It is possible your face is telling you to lather in a bowl and paint the lather on your wet face.
I use a one pint plastic rubbermaid kitchen storage thing. Three for four bucks... round, red lid
smooth on the inside slight ribs on the outside.

Just face lather enough to clean your face... leave the scrubbing for a wash cloth unless you
happen to like a scrubbing like I do at times. I find that my old $7 VDH boar brush gives me a good scrub.

If your whiskers grow near flat ATG will be a problem. Get them from the side.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by niftyshaving

...It is possible your face is telling you to lather in a bowl and paint the lather on your wet face.

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Exactly! I was just going to say that.

My face can't take a lot of face lathering. I like to paint on a thick, velvety, lemon meringue type lather. I'd also recommend NOT washing the Proroso pre-shave after after applying it; put the lather right on top. Maybe also try just a WTG and then a true ATG. I say 'true' as I found I had got a but lazy, and just started going N to S and W to E and E to W without REALLY following the changing grain...

I would add plain soap to the first application of hot water. This will remove the oil from the hair and allow the water to start softening your beard sooner.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by carlmaloschneider

Exactly! I was just going to say that.

My face can't take a lot of face lathering. I like to paint on a thick, velvety, lemon meringue type lather. I'd also recommend NOT washing the Proroso pre-shave after after applying it; put the lather right on top. Maybe also try just a WTG and then a true ATG. I say 'true' as I found I had got a but lazy, and just started going N to S and W to E and E to W without REALLY following the changing grain...

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With the grain, against the grain are only two points on a clock.
If ATG causes problems as it does for me when using a Feather blade
skip the direct attack and get at it from the side.

If 6:00 is ATG try 4:00 and 7:00 or even 3:00 and 9:00

BTW: My WTG is more a 11:00 and 1:00 many days.

SUMMARY:
No one angle of attack will work for all of us and
all the parts of our face. So adjust as needed.

I hear you saying WTG, XTG and ATG, but have you really mapped out what the growth pattern is of the various parts of the face? You may find the parts that are not well shaven after 2 passes are a result of the direction the hair grows in that area is different.

I have this on my neck which grows from the middle out to my ears, so 1 pass down and 1 pass up is really two XTG passes.

My beard grows down from my right ear and makes a turn going across my neck and turns again going up toward my left ear at an angle. ATG is nigh impossible for me to achieve on my throat with a straight

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nuntits

My beard grows down from my right ear and makes a turn going across my neck and turns again going up toward my left ear at an angle. ATG is nigh impossible for me to achieve on my throat with a straight

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Impossible??!! No, I would rather think you just have not found the right mix of angle, technique and testicular fortitude to get it yet, but it will come.

Lol I know you are right, but please don't question my testicular fortitude! My beard is truly a finicky one! :p

Thanks for all the comments!

But again today even after change a few things I have the same result- razor bumps, a little razor burn, stubble look in areas which is under the skin. I have tried to take my time to make sure the angle is right etc Might try the first razor a i bought again. And I hate to say it I may have to go back to the dreaded multi-blade. As although I had some stubble look I did not have the razor burn or bumps. I will getting a straight razor shave middle of next week, and will ask them foe some tips too.

Just don't give up! You will just have to find your happy medium

I don't want to give up but I can't keep getting razor burn and bumps after I shave, its taken maybe 2hrs for the razor burn to really die down. And I still have red razor bumps. I'll try one more shave with the Weishi 9306-E and see what happens. Looking to laser hair removal, but this will be a last resort option.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AledJ

Thanks for all the comments!

But again today even after change a few things I have the same result- razor bumps, a little razor burn, stubble look in areas which is under the skin. I have tried to take my time to make sure the angle is right etc Might try the first razor a i bought again. And I hate to say it I may have to go back to the dreaded multi-blade. As although I had some stubble look I did not have the razor burn or bumps. I will getting a straight razor shave middle of next week, and will ask them foe some tips too.

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PMFJI --

If you run your hand over a part of your face, and it feels smooth, don't take another pass over that part. If there's no hair sticking up, the edge will just be scraping skin -- razor burn!

If you still have shadow in that area, there's nothing a razor can do about it.

b) Given a choice between a dull blade and pressure, or a really sharp blade and no pressure, I'll take the sharp blade every time.

If you haven't tried it, put a Feather blade into the Weishi. It's a very mild razor. But even so, use no pressure on the razor, especially going ATG. With a delicate touch, you ought to get smooth skin, and no razor burn.

c) I agree with a previous post -- develop your lather in a bowl, and paint it on your face. There's no reason to scrub your face with bristles. And add a little bit of glycerin or Astroglide to the lather; it will lubricate your skin, and smooth out the shave.

Charles

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cpcohen1945

PMFJI --

If you run your hand over a part of your face, and it feels smooth, don't take another pass over that part. If there's no hair sticking up, the edge will just be scraping skin -- razor burn!

If you still have shadow in that area, there's nothing a razor can do about it.

b) Given a choice between a dull blade and pressure, or a really sharp blade and no pressure, I'll take the sharp blade every time.

If you haven't tried it, put a Feather blade into the Weishi. It's a very mild razor. But even so, use no pressure on the razor, especially going ATG. With a delicate touch, you ought to get smooth skin, and no razor burn.

c) I agree with a previous post -- develop your lather in a bowl, and paint it on your face. There's no reason to scrub your face with bristles. And add a little bit of glycerin or Astroglide to the lather; it will lubricate your skin, and smooth out the shave.

Charles

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I have just tried to practice the angle of the razor in the mirror, and I can't keep the same angle nor can I tell if i'm scraping or cutting. Should I be shaving every day as today I had about 3 days of hair growth, and also is the ATG passes causing the bumps and burn? As I think it could be but don't know another way to remove those hairs which grow flat to the skin. Could it be my current razor is too aggressive for me ?

edit: if i look in a mirror close up I can see a bit of stubble but stand a bit further back and I look like I have a clean shave!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AledJ

I have just tried to practice the angle of the razor in the mirror, and I can't keep the same angle nor can I tell if i'm scraping or cutting. Should I be shaving every day as today I had about 3 days of hair growth, and also is the ATG passes causing the bumps and burn? As I think it could be but don't know another way to remove those hairs which grow flat to the skin. Could it be my current razor is too aggressive for me ?

edit: if i look in a mirror close up I can see a bit of stubble but stand a bit further back and I look like I have a clean shave!

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The ATG pass has the most potential to cause irritation.

Have you experimented with stretching your skin as you make a pass? Stretch it in different directions and see if a direction makes the hairs stick up more (feel rougher). If you can find that then stretch and try a XTG pass and skip the ATG. It should reduce your irritation.

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Originally Posted by Crotalus

The ATG pass has the most potential to cause irritation.

Have you experimented with stretching your skin as you make a pass? Stretch it in different directions and see if a direction makes the hairs stick up more (feel rougher). If you can find that then stretch and try a XTG pass and skip the ATG. It should reduce your irritation.

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XTG mean across the grain?

I have tried stretching but end up removing shaving cream. Will try and upload some pics! I may be being very picky as standing at a normal distance from a mirror (not with the mirror right in my face), its looks ok bit red in places but ok and clean. Its when I look closer that I see the stubble look.

Not the best camera to really show it off:

http://straightrazorpalace.com/membe...9-dscf2795.jpg

http://straightrazorpalace.com/membe...8-dscf2789.jpg

http://straightrazorpalace.com/membe...7-dscf2788.jpg

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Originally Posted by AledJ

XTG mean across the grain?

I have tried stretching but end up removing shaving cream. Will try and upload some pics! I may be being very picky as standing at a normal distance from a mirror (not with the mirror right in my face), its looks ok bit red in places but ok and clean. Its when I look closer that I see the stubble look.

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Yes, XTG is across the grain. If the first XTG pass doesn't get it all then do one in the opposite XTG direction too.

Don't give up on skin stretching. It is the single biggest thing that made my shaves closer and better. Practice grabbing that skin in different places and stretch it. When you pull the skin from the direction opposite of the hair growth direction it makes the hair stand up and get cut at a more perpendicular angle. Otherwise your hair is laying flat and it gets cut at a long diagonal, thus leaving the hair longer, albeit pointy and thinner. If I don't stretch my skin I find it a lot harder to feel when the angle is right and the blade is cutting properly. Plus because the skin is not taught the razor won't glide as smoothly which causes irritation or even nicks.

An ATG (Against the grain) pass will make up for bad skin stretching but causes a lot more irritation because the hair pushes the razor down into the skin. Good stretching might make an ATG pass tolerable for you too if it makes the hair stand up straight enough. But I think you should wait on trying the ATG until you can consistently get no irritation and a good shave on the other passes.

Try not to be too much of a perfectionist until you are consistently getting no irritation. Nobody is going to be examining your beard up close except maybe your significant other. I like to have BBS in all directions but I have to accept that I will get a little irritation doing that and I can't do it every day. Fortunately my wife only feels in the downward direction on my cheeks and she is happy.