A No ‘pulling and tugging’ razor?

I often read about fellows saying that their shave was great with no ‘pulling or tugging.’ I’ve been using a straight for about two years now, and no matter what, I always get pulling and tugging. I recently got one of my razors, a ⅝” Dovo Blackstar, sharpened by a professional from this forum, and he did a wonderful job. It came back sharper and in better shape than ever, but I still got pulling and tugging. I have come to expect this out of my razors, and thought it was normal. Until today, that is…


I shaved with an inexpensive, ‘Made in India,’ shavette today, and was pretty amazed. It was just like what I often read about - a great shave with no pulling and tugging. I had used this shavette a few times when I first started out, but I had a problem with cutting myself, mainly by the sharp, pointy corners of the blade. So when I used the shavette today, I slightly rounded the corners by running them over a sharpening stone. Rounding the corners, along with using a very light touch, gave me a great shave, with no pulling and tugging whatsoever. BTW, the shavette, with its broken-in-half razor blade, is the only razor I have that passes the HHT. When I try the HHT with my straights, even after being sharpened by an expert, they always fail.


So the problems is, how do I get the same shave with my straights? I know that a straight razor is probably never going to be as sharp as a razor blade (from what I’ve read), but as I said, people are getting great shaves with no pulling and tugging, so, do they just have better razors? Razors that take and hold a better edge? If so, any suggestions for a razor that will work better? A razor that will shave with little, if any, pulling and tugging?


I don’t figure it’s my technique that is the cause of my problems. As I stated above, I got a great shave, with the same technique, using a cheap shavette. I’m equally sure it’s not the keenness of the blade, because I had it sharpened (my Dovo) by a true expert. The pulling and tugging I’m experiencing is significant, not mild or barely existent. So all I’m coming up with is that my razor doesn’t get as sharp as some other razors can. Hence, my quest for a new razor begins. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Could be a number of things, but something like a Feather razor blade is about as sharp as it gets...but at a price. I don't get as smooth a shave out of a Feather. Have you ever met another veteran straight shaver? Have you ever made a razor meet? I ask simple questions like this because a poor shave (tugging and pulling) can be from the beginning of a shave all the way through.

I have some really tough whiskers around my goatee area & even with a perfectly honed razor I can feel a bit of resistance with a lighter full hollow blade. This is why my method of shaving is "beard reduction". I shave with the grain 1-2 passes, across the grain once, and against the grain once. My WTG pass is the determining factor if I need another pass WTG as if I do, my face wasn't hydrated enough...which almost perfectly coincides with me taking a quick shower.

Lastly, if you have been shaving with a straight...why haven't you experimented with different ways until you found a way that works for you? If you had only been at this a few months, I could understand. I really recommend making a razor meet and or finding a "mentor". They don't have to be a "badged" mentor from here, just another veteran straight razor user like yourself. Get together, strop, hone, shave, and of course shoot the bull together...it's always a lot of fun.

My number 1 son complains about pulling and tugging with full hollows. He has an extra thick and extra wiry beard. He has discovered that wedges don't do that in his beard, perhaps you should get a heavier grind and take that for a spin.

Coti and escher edge may well be too soft or dull for you. 20k suehiro edge followed by cbn on hard wool will produce a feather blade sharpness ime. Hard jnats can also . It all depends on the honer though. You can have the best stone but dont know how to use it.

Pulling and Tugging is sort of subjective. What Shooter said about the Feather blade is spot on. BTW, if you have a thick beard you will notice some P&T with a Feather blade on your first pass easily. You don't want your SR to get 'too' sharp. A SR allows you to reach the perfect compromise of sharp and smooth. When it is there you will have 'some' more P&T as compared to a Feather blade but it will provide you with a smooth irritation free shave. Because it's so smooth you can go over the trouble spots with an additional pass and end up with just as close of a shave but without the irritation penalty. Now when a SR truly needs to be re-honed or even touched up then the P&T is actually dramatic. That very noticeable stage is what we mean to say by pulling and tugging.

I like super sharp. So when I hone them I push the limit on it. Everybody has their own opinion but I had the same issues you did regardling blades honed by others that were shave ready yet.dullish. I dont find a highly refined edge whether synthetic or jnat to be harsh at all. The harshness to me was from the tugging. But ymmv as always. I would love to give ypur blade a once over for postage. I think I can get it the way you want it as I like em very sharp as well.

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Originally Posted by bill3152

Coti and escher edge may well be too soft or dull for you. 20k suehiro edge followed by cbn on hard wool will produce a feather blade sharpness ime. Hard jnats can also . It all depends on the honer though. You can have the best stone but dont know how to use it.

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Please explain this statement on coti & escher edges before you are flogged like a grasshopper who jumped into a chicken coop. The sharpness comes at the lower "grits" of the bevel setter and pre-polishers. I'm wondering if you are talking about slurry dulling, otherwise this statement about coti's and escher's is incorrect to say the least. I have some of the finest stones around and know how to use them...an Escher edge is on over 50% of my edges.

As mentioned above, maybe the OP needs to try out a heavier grind razor for that "squeegee" like shave. Have you tried a heavier razor?

Tugging and pulling are sometimes subjective. One must properly soak and do the proper prep. If you are one that has a really course beard then you will have to soften your beard more than someone that only has a very light beard, of course.

That said, the amount of tugging and pulling is really a subjective thing. A straight will never compare to a DE or a blade that has a Teflon, or other, coating on the blade's bevel. A coating will always make the blade cut easier. No way to get around that. There are things to mitigate that difference, however. I have an extremely heavy and course beard and my demands on a razor are almost extreme.

My first N->S pass is a very light pass in which I just kinda lightly, and without much detail, thin the herd as it were. My second pass is another N->S pass but this time things will be a lot smoother and it is a detailed pass using all the tricks like major stretching and scything. For me, this pass is the foundation of the rest of your shave.

The rest of my passes are XTG from center out, ATG from S->N, and XTG from ears to center. I do a final touch up on two difficult areas that always need a touch up to get BBS.

The closeness of the shave is superior to any that I have ever had from a DE, disposable or any other razor that I have used. I concur with the sentiment that a 1/4 grind can make things easier on your face if you have a heavy beard. It is not that a full hollow will not do the job but it tends to take a bit more technique to do the job.

Later,
Richard

I meant that a great stone wouldn't benefit anybody if they didn't know how to use it. I was not talking about anybody in particular. Regarding the sharpness, I agree that the bulk of the sharpness is reached when the bevel is set. But there is further refinement as the swarf on the stone indicated metal is being removed. I think that Jnats are capable of a keener edge than cotis and eschers as well. No scientific proof, my observation and there are some circles that agree with that. Im sure there are many variations as every stone is different. As well as the hands that use them.

All I will say is assuming your technique is sound if you are getting tugging and pulling you razor isn't sharp enough.

Always wondered about the "no tugging or pulling" comments myself having never experienced an SR shave without feeling some slight resistance especially on the first WTG pass. I can, OTH, believe that comment with a good DE/blade combo. Could it be that people coming from using solely multi blade cart razors feel the difference more?

Bob

:hmmm:

I am still wondering where the OP said Coti or Escher ??? that took this off on such a tangent..

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Originally Posted by bill3152

I like super sharp. So when I hone them I push the limit on it. Everybody has their own opinion but I had the same issues you did regardling blades honed by others that were shave ready yet.dullish. I dont find a highly refined edge whether synthetic or jnat to be harsh at all. The harshness to me was from the tugging. But ymmv as always. I would love to give ypur blade a once over for postage. I think I can get it the way you want it as I like em very sharp as well.

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Thanks for your kind, generous offer, Bill. Look for a PM from me.

Other than getting the blade I have sharper, I think the next move is to look into a ¼ grind razor or even heavier, as others have suggested. I’m looking at the Ralf Aust razors on SRD. Can anyone tell me what grind they have?

Thanks again for the help and the offer. You, and others like you make this a really great forum. Thanks again.

Bruseth

Kenny

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Originally Posted by bruseth

I’m looking at the Ralf Aust razors on SRD. Can anyone tell me what grind they have?

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I have the 5/8, 6/8, and 7/8. They're full hollow. :)

With a perfect prep and a great edge I occasionally can't tell if hairs are being cut because the razor is gliding so easily. But on another part of my face I encounter some more resistance. It winds up being about the same sensations I feel when shaving with a de. I wouldn't describe the light feeling of resistance as pulling though. If I feel that the I would try to hone it.

Michael

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Originally Posted by mjsorkin

With a perfect prep and a great edge I occasionally can't tell if hairs are being cut because the razor is gliding so easily. But on another part of my face I encounter some more resistance. It winds up being about the same sensations I feel when shaving with a de. I wouldn't describe the light feeling of resistance as pulling though. If I feel that the I would try to hone it.

Michael

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Thanks Michael. That’s exactly how it felt yesterday, when I shaved with the shavette. I actually didn’t think the whiskers were being cut - the razor just glided along, resistance-free. I was very surprised after making my WTG pass to find that not only were the hairs cut, but I was closer shaven than I usually am after 2 passes with my straight. That’s when I realized something was wrong. My technique, the products I used, virtually everything was exactly the same. The only difference was the shavette instead of my straight. I thought to myself that I hadn’t needed to put up with all the pulling and tugging, I probably needed a different razor. Some have posted saying that maybe a different grind might suit me better. I think they’re right, and intend to get a ¼ grind or more straight razor as soon as I can.
Thanks for your observations, Michael. I appreciate the help.

With a Shavette the surface area of the cutting edge is far diff than a straight,the resitance will be far less.

It is good of Bill3152 to offer you a honing for postage. If you take him up on it, you might ask him to shave with it first so that you can get other feedback on how the edge is & compare notes...do it by phone, more questions & answers come up that way.

Have you looked into the SRP razor if you are considering purchasing a new razor? It's got a heavier grind, is made by a pro & one of the few razors that can handle a 30K stone (this means it's got great steel and heat treated to get the best the steel can offer). Down side is that it would take a while from the time you order it to the time you receive it as each razor is custom made by hand.

Some other alternatives are some of the heavier vintage razors. I personally recommend staying away from a full wedge as they are a complete PITA to hone and some are even tough to strop if your strop has much draw.

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Originally Posted by shooter74743

It is good of Bill3152 to offer you a honing for postage. If you take him up on it, you might ask him to shave with it first so that you can get other feedback on how the edge is & compare notes...do it by phone, more questions & answers come up that way.

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It was very kind of Bill, wasn’t it? And yes, I am taking him up on it.

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Originally Posted by shooter74743

Have you looked into the SRP razor if you are considering purchasing a new razor? It's got a heavier grind, is made by a pro & one of the few razors that can handle a 30K stone (this means it's got great steel and heat treated to get the best the steel can offer). Down side is that it would take a while from the time you order it to the time you receive it as each razor is custom made by hand.

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I didn’t know they were still available. I’ll definitely look into them.

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Originally Posted by shooter74743

Some other alternatives are some of the heavier vintage razors. I personally recommend staying away from a full wedge as they are a complete PITA to hone and some are even tough to strop if your strop has much draw.
it.

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I’ve heard that about wedges. I’ll stay away from them for now.

Thanks for the comments and the help. It’s much appreciated.


Bruseth

Kenny

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Originally Posted by shooter74743

Have you looked into the SRP razor if you are considering purchasing a new razor? .

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Where does one find said gem??

My experience is very close to the OP's. Coarse whiskers, dense beard, tough time using a straight so far. Everyone says the blade will feel dull at first because of your technique. I completely believe that. I've been working at it a couple times a week for several months and I just can't help thinking I need a little more sharpness. I know a sharp blade will cut my whiskers pretty comfortably. I can get a good close comfortable shave with a shavette. I'm determined though. I'm going to keep trying some new things until I get where I want to be.

The comments on different grinds is interesting but all the new razors I've seen are full hollow. Is it just custom makers that offer other grinds these days?

The BST here is great to find other grinds. Here is an example of a page where you can find 1/2 hollow grinds.

7/8 razors

It is not that I am recommending them but just an example of what you can find when you get into it!

Take care,
Richard

It is often difficult to decipher the different grinds on the new straights. When I have it figured out I'll let you know. In the mean time I have just emailed suppliers and said I'm looking for a 1/2hollow what do you recommend. The customs are often heavier grinds but I'm not a big consumer of those I'm just going by what I see in the newly acquired page. There are tons of very nice 1/4 and near wedge vintage that are everywhere from mint to beat. If you are just looking for something to try that isn't pretty Whipped Dog is an option and I'm sure I'm not the only one that has a less than pretty razor you could get on loan.

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Originally Posted by RezDog

It is often difficult to decipher the different grinds on the new straights. When I have it figured out I'll let you know. In the mean time I have just emailed suppliers and said I'm looking for a 1/2hollow what do you recommend. The customs are often heavier grinds but I'm not a big consumer of those I'm just going by what I see in the newly acquired page. There are tons of very nice 1/4 and near wedge vintage that are everywhere from mint to beat. If you are just looking for something to try that isn't pretty Whipped Dog is an option and I'm sure I'm not the only one that has a less than pretty razor you could get on loan.

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I also have a tough beard and believed that a full hollow Joseph Rogers I have would never work on me. I twice took it back to the Belgian blue then coticule and it is fine now. I would also recommend that you strop a little more than others recommend 70/80 laps or more. I have not shaved with a shavette so can't compare (must try one) but try change technique a little at a time. Try lifting the blade a little, try slanting the blade a little (one new thing at a time) keep with it, when you get it right it is really worth the effort.

I get pulling and tugging with my brand new full hollow dovo. I don't get it with my vintage half hollow "diamond king" razor. Both honed by me, so it's not a difference in edge. If anything, the diamond king is not as sharp because it has a slightly smiling blade that I have not perfected sharpening yet. (Not that I've perfected honing on any razor)

The whole notion you need to tailor a blade to the beard is poppycock and is debunked by the fact barbers mostly used 5/8s and 6/8s hollow ground blades as their working razors and they were able to shave everyone who came into the shop. If you have issues with your beard you need more attention to your razor.

Also, you need to distinguish if a razor is just working through your beard or truly pulling. With some razors you can really feel them working.

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

The whole notion you need to tailor a blade to the beard is poppycock and is debunked by the fact barbers mostly used 5/8s and 6/8s hollow ground blades as their working razors and they were able to shave everyone who came into the shop. If you have issues with your beard you need more attention to your razor.

Also, you need to distinguish if a razor is just working through your beard or truly pulling. With some razors you can really feel them working.

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Right. And nearly everyone in the country who shaves now uses a Gillette Fusion so no reason it shouldn't work for everyone. Man I really felt those 5 bladed carts working when I used them too :)

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Originally Posted by bruseth

I don’t figure it’s my technique that is the cause of my problems. As I stated above, I got a great shave, with the same technique, using a cheap shavette. I’m equally sure it’s not the keenness of the blade, because I had it sharpened (my Dovo) by a true expert.

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A couple of thoughts.
If you're sure of the honing quality are you sure of your stropping quality ?
If your technique works for a shavette does a straight require a different angle ?
Don't worry about better razors as Dovos can take a good enough edge. Worry about why yours isn't doing the job.

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

A couple of thoughts.
If you're sure of the honing quality are you sure of your stropping quality ?
If your technique works for a shavette does a straight require a different angle ?.

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These are the same two things I was thinking as I read the original post.

I started with a shavette and shaved with it for awhile. It taught me a lot. Including technique and pressure control while shaving. However the biggest thing I found when switching to a traditional straight was that I needed to change my angles. I found that I could have a much steeper angle with a shavette then with a traditional straight. I would suggest starting over on your angles and start with blade almost flat against the skin and concentrate and keeping that angle throughout the shave.

If this doesn't help I would reexamine your stropping.

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Originally Posted by Ru4scuba

Where does one find said gem??

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Sorry, was on vacation for a while. You can find the beginning of the thread at: http://straightrazorpalace.com/conte...ght-razor-644/

I definitely notice more "feedback" and sometimes pulling with full hollows (not all razors though, just a few) this is probably partially due to my still learning how to hone. Some razors just take edges easier and I'm still learning quite a bit.

The more and more I shave with wedge style and less hollow grinds however, the more I like them because they just cut through whiskers like butter. I don't have an extremely heavy beard though either. I do still like shaving with some of my full hollows, but after about a year of shaving now, I'm starting to appreciate the less hollow grinds (probably because I actually have some variety to chose from now)!

Now let the OP commend on full hollows, half hollows, and framebacks that are TRULY shave ready.

Grinds are a preference thing, a shave ready razor of good steel will do the job no matter...comfortably.

Like "uncle Si" would say: That's a fact Jack!

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Originally Posted by shooter74743

Now let the OP commend on full hollows, half hollows, and framebacks that are TRULY shave ready.

Grinds are a preference thing, a shave ready razor of good steel will do the job no matter...comfortably.

Like "uncle Si" would say: That's a fact Jack!

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Tis true, tis true - Big Time! Thanks to Scott’s (Shooter74743) generosity and thoughtfulness, I had the opportunity to try out 3 wonderful razors - His very own razors that he was kind enough to lend to me! One razor is a frameback (a Joseph Elliot), one a half hollow, and the third is a full hollow (a Schlinco Weyer). The Le Grelot is a ½ hollow ground razor. They’ve all been honed by Scott, and I have to say that they are incredibly sharp. Sharper than I’ve ever experienced. Sharper than I thought it was possible to hone a razor. After they arrived in the mail, I wiped the oil off of the blades. I then passed them over my forearm, about mid-hair length, and all three razors cut arm hair; easily and profusely. Beautiful razors, each and every one.
I used the Le Grelot first. It just plowed through my beard, effortlessly, with absolutely no pulling or tugging. It was the best shave I’ve ever had, no exaggeration. My first thought was that it worked so well because it was a ½ grind. But after thinking some more, I had another thought. Seeing that all three razors were super-sharp, sharper than any of my three razors, could it have something to do with the sharpness, rather than solely being about the grind? So the next razor I tried was the Schlinco Weyer, a full hollow ground razor, just like my Dovo. And lo and behold, it glided through the whiskers, again with no pulling and tugging! So, what was I able to conclude about all this? Well, I think that different grinds on razors do indeed change the nature of the shave somewhat, but ultimately it’s the sharpness of the razor that matters most. I think that my Dovo, even being a full hollow, will work just fine as long as it is as sharp as it can possibly get. A bit beyond being merely shave ready. And soon, due to another member’s kindness (thanks bill3152), I'll be able to check that theory out. He has offered to hone my Dovo, free of charge. As soon as I send it to Bill, and I get it back, I'll let you all know if that’s indeed the case. I’m quite sure it will be.
Thanks to everybody for their comments and suggestions. This is a wonderful group of people we have on this forum. I feel privileged to be part of it.
Thanks again Bill and Scott, and everyone else. Have a good one.

Ahh... It warms the heart! A lifer! Good going!

R

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

The whole notion you need to tailor a blade to the beard is poppycock and is debunked by the fact barbers mostly used 5/8s and 6/8s hollow ground blades as their working razors and they were able to shave everyone who came into the shop. If you have issues with your beard you need more attention to your razor.

Also, you need to distinguish if a razor is just working through your beard or truly pulling. With some razors you can really feel them working.

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With most of my blades I can feel and hear them working. As a result of this, when I had a razor that wasn't properly honed, it set off alarm bells right away on the first pass. Unfortunately, by that time, I had a little cut on my face.

Some razors feel a bit harsh, but a few shaves and some stropping on the linen etc.. usually mellows them out.

Having said that, I agree, there is a difference between the razor working through your beard and pulling...I can tell usually immediately if a razor pulls and thus needs to be put down and another used. For me, the key is recognizing it right away and stopping the shave before blood makes an appearance!!