Shaving is horrible after professional sharpening

Hi guys, this is my first post here so please bear with me. First of all, I've been shaving with a straight razor for nearly 20 years; I learned from books and archaic 90s websites. Over time I learned how to shave and maintain my razor quite sufficiently. A couple of months ago I dropped my razor while stropping and completely ruined the blade. I couldn't hone it back into submission so I had to go to a professional straight razor sharpener (these people didn't exist in the 90s or were few and far between at least). I took my razors to a highly-regarded sharpener (name withheld) and he was able to fix my blade and, indeed, make it sharper than it had ever been (he also sharpened another razor that I could never get sharp enough).

The strange thing is, yes, it is sharper than it has ever been and initially shaves well but then gives-out halfway through the shave. I have to re-strop it to get anything out of it. My old edge didn't have this problem even though it was duller.

My suspicion is that the edge is now so sharp that it can easily warp and needs to be straightened (stropped) back to finish the job.

Has anyone else had this problem? Any remedies? Do I need to re-examine my stropping technique?

cheers,

dq

Have you tried contacting the professional and explaining the issue?

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Originally Posted by monkeypuzzlebeefeater

Have you tried contacting the professional and explaining the issue?

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Contact the honer first is what I would do as well, they would probably correct the issue for no charge (unless it's been a considerable amount of time).

Does the razor have excessive hone wear? If so maybe the bevel angle is too shallow after the honing.

Post pictures if possible

I haven't contacted him as I wanted to get some others' opinions first (maybe there's something obvious I'm missing).

This problems affects both razors and there's no hone wear. Both razors were brand-new and one of them was only used a few times before I had it professionally honed.

I'll try and take pics tonight...

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Originally Posted by quixada

This problems affects both razors and there's no hone wear. Both razors were brand-new and one of them was only used a few times before I had it professionally honed.

I'll try and take pics tonight...

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Sounds like a honing issue, definitely contact the honer.

What was the damage when it fell?

Hello and welcome to SRP. A few things that might be a problem, bevel angle is one, previously mentioned of your honer changed the angle to the point where yes it is very sharp but also thin and fragile it wont last and you may have to strop excessively to keep it straight. Another possibility is wire edge formation or false edge whereby the edge also appears to be sharp but breaks down quickly during the shave and you need to go to the strop to finish mid shave multiple times. Tough to say what happened to your razor without some detailed photos of the blade using some magnification. There are some tests for wire edge that involve running a pin starting from the spine with pin head pointed at the edge and seeing if it catches at the edge on either side indicating a burr. Do this on both sides along the blade and see if the pin head catches it should just glide off if honed properly. I am curious how you have been honing and maintaining your razors for the last 20 years? What do you use for hones and methods? try to document as much as you can about this experience i'm sure it will be educational for you and everybody else.

Could be he's not that reputable a honer, maybe just a knife sharpener who put your razor on a grinder or belt instead of using the correct hones and really increased the angle or messed with the temper, lots could go wrong, tc

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Originally Posted by tcrideshd

Could be he's not that reputable a honer, maybe just a knife sharpener who put your razor on a grinder or belt instead of using the correct hones and really increased the angle or messed with the temper, lots could go wrong, tc

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If the honer was like the above DON"T send it back! We've seen pictures and read horror stories about knife sharpeners and grinding wheels

Welcome to SRP. From your first post I gather that you honed and maintained your razors up until the accident when you dropped it. IME when I've gotten a razor uncomfortably sharp on a high grit finisher I've dropped down to a coticule, or if you don't have one, down a step in the grit ladder. Usually that has taken care of the harshness.

Now in your case it seems that the edge may be overhoned, falling apart from the sound of it. Check it with an eye loupe, or other magnification, and see if there is any indication. Anyway, since you honed them in the past you ought to be able to bring it back now that the pro honer has corrected (we hope) the damage caused when it was dropped. :gl:

I agree. Now that it's "fixed", you will hopefully be able to hone it back to the way you liked it.

Before I was just using a 6000 grit Japanese natural waterstone every few months and stropping linen+leather before every shave. He said that it wasn't fine enough so I bought a 10,000 grit synthetic and a CrOx balsawood board. He also looked at my strop and said it was a bit dry and suggested that I lightly sand it down with 400 grit sand paper and treat it with an oil. I did this and found some neatsfoot oil from my local hardware store. The strop is much more supple making it less slippery which affects the way I'm used to stropping-- so maybe I'm not stropping it properly?

I don't think the guy did butchered the blades or anything. He specializes in sharpening straight razors and I seem to recall that he said he didn't need to use a wheel because the damage wasn't that severe. He also said that the razor blade quality was decent so it can't be that either. I have a loupe so I'll take some pics...

One thing he did say which contradicted what I originally learned (I think from Arthur Boon's original site) was that the shaving edge should be mirror finish. This contradicted what I read when I was learning which Boon said that it should be a dull finish. I remember Boon's site also cautioning overhoning too.

dq

Yea… so the first question to ask a Straight Razor honer is, do you shave with a straight razor?

If the answer is no, look elsewhere.

The second question is how do you hone razors? The answer should be, by hand, on stones. Anything else, look elsewhere.

It sounds like it might be a combination of issues, the honing and your strop. First contact the Honer and see what he says and does. Do not send it back to him, if he is primarily a knife sharpener or does not shave with a straight.

And what does the edge look like under magnification when you got it back and now? A 6k edge is pretty rough, what stone are you using?

Photos of the razors, stones and strop would help. Hate to trash the honer without knowing more…

A 6000 grit natural Japanese waterstone is a contradiction in terms. Is it a natural stone? If so, then it has no accurate grit designation. If you were shaving just fine with this for years, then you probably did not need anything else. If you are not satisfied with the edges you have been maintaining all along, then your new synthetic hone may help.

Ok here are images through my loupe. There are two razors:

Fromm:
Attachment 230973
Attachment 230979
Attachment 230980

Mehaz:
Attachment 230981
Attachment 230982
Attachment 230978
Attachment 230983

Also here is my 6000 grit hone:
Attachment 230984

dq

The issue you have could be either foil edge, which is extremely rare occurrence, or the bevel is not quite set. The images provided look good but do not provide enough magnification for me to see the condition of the edge. What hone progression did the honer use?

Really hard to comment much on the edges of the two razors, from the photos, other than they have been honed without tape and the Fromm needs some heel re-shaping.

The Mehaz is of questionable quality as you well know.

Your stone appears to not have been lapped. Lapping may improve the edges it will produce, but still is not fine enough to produce a smooth shaving edge. You really need at least a good 8k stone to shave comfortably off of.

You might take a damp white paper towel and wipe your strop and see if any grit became imbedded in the strop from sanding.

Whoever did this to a razor , has no idea what they are doing when it comes to razor honing. I don't know anyone associated with this site, SRP, that hones, who would do this to a customer's razor.

Attachment 230987

Other than the minor issue with the heel, I don't see what is wrong with the areas marked by the other arrows. Would you please elaborate on them?

Sure Ron, a short post before I call it a night.

Look back at post # 4;

"I haven't contacted him as I wanted to get some others' opinions first (maybe there's something obvious I'm missing).

This problems affects both razors and there's no hone wear. Both razors were brand-new and one of them was only used a few times before I had it professionally honed.

I'll try and take pics tonight..."




The arrows indicate some hone wear, to say the least, I'm not saying that is either good or bad. :shrug:

The part that is of concern to me is, whoever honed this razor, rode right off the edge and onto the shoulder, to a great extent, probably the reason for the heal issue.

Have you tried to hone them yourself the way you are used to efter getting them back? If that doesn't work, ask the honer the questions previously mentioned here. If he cant give you good answers, I would recommend sending it to someone here on the forum for a check up. Much easier to locate the problem if you have the razor in your hand. Im sure there are someone in this forum who would gladly check it and hone it for you! Where do you live?

And I would probably ask for a refund from the honer in question, if he did in fact cause the problem...

Could you also post some close up pic of the strop. Not sure if 400 grit sanding is fine enough... But that depends on the leather I guess.

Welcome to the forum!

Jacob

Sounds like over honing to me.
I am guilty of over honing from time to time.
Talk to the honer, i would think he can correct this.

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Originally Posted by Hirlau

The arrows indicate some hone wear, to say the least, I'm not saying that is either good or bad. :shrug:

The part that is of concern to me is, whoever honed this razor, rode right off the edge and onto the shoulder, to a great extent, probably the reason for the heal issue.

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Hi, I should have pointed out that this is the Fromm razor that I used for almost 20 years so any of the hone wear you are noticing is from me and I have no doubt I slipped a few times.

Someone else mentioned that my hone should be lapped. I'm aware of that (I learned it from the guy who sharpened my razors) and I plan on doing it. I haven't used that hone (or any hone) since I had them sharpened in January and the honer suggested that I won't need to use that grit hone for at least a couple of years.

I also wanted to report that I shaved last night and I noticed that the both ends of the razor seem to shave better than the middle part i.e., they seem to hold their edge better in those places. Is this any indication of anything?

Regarding the quality, I looked up the razors after dropping the Fromm and, as someone pointed out, the Mehaz quality may be questionable. I considered buying a new razor but the honer looked at the steel and said that they were ok quality; he suspected that both razors were made using the same blank. And it was much cheaper to have them honed instead of buying a new razor. Also the Mehaz is stamped "Solingen" on the backside of the tang which I read somewhere that if it is stamped it is genuine as opposed to it just being etched.

The honer told me the combo of hones he used but I can't remember.

One thing I will also mention is that before getting the razors sharpened I was only able to shave once a week because I had to wait until the hair was long enough (and my hair grows faster than most if anything). But since I had the razors sharpened I can do it more often which indicates to me that it is sharper. That's why I thought of my original theory that the cutting bevel is thinner than it used to be-- sharper, but more susceptible to warping during the shave...

dq

Just from what I'm seeing (and I know you say you have been shaving with a straight for 20 years) but it looks like you have been using a razor with a sub par edge. Sometimes we learn bad ways and over time they become reinforced and you just get used to them. I would respectfully suggest maybe your shave technique may need some honing. Other than that try having your edge redone by someone else and see what happens.

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

Just from what I'm seeing (and I know you say you have been shaving with a straight for 20 years) but it looks like you have been using a razor with a sub par edge. Sometimes we learn bad ways and over time they become reinforced and you just get used to them. I would respectfully suggest maybe your shave technique may need some honing. Other than that try having your edge redone by someone else and see what happens.

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I have no doubt that I have picked up some bad habits over the years and I'm sure there's room for improvement (I only shave with my dominant hand for example). I learned before the era of youtube and extensive online communities dedicated to one thing (there wasn't a rec.knives.straightrazors or anything like that back in the day). Still, the technique isn't rocket science, and I don't think poor technique contributes to the razor giving-out half-way through a shave...

Anyway, I'm certainly open to getting a new razor if necessary. I was just hoping to avoid that and save a bit if it is only a marginal improvement.

dq

By bad habits, he means you are settling for a subpar edge and are not using the best maintenance and or shaving techniques. This is common, even with cartridge razors.

I used have seen guys shaving with very dull cartridge razors, and calling it good. The same is true for straights, for most the cause is improper stropping. I have honed tons of razors, guys claimed to have been shaving with, that would be impossible to get a smooth shave from. I have no reason to doubt them, but all have opened their eyes once shaving with a truly shave ready edge.

Yes, lack of good mentoring is often the cause, also there is a lot of bad information on the web. A few minutes of coaching has improved the quality of shaves for many.

The importance of proper stropping cannot be over emphasized and it may be that your razor was properly honed and stropping technique or strop quality has degraded it. Very common, one stroke can ruin an edge, and the amount of time you have been doing it doesn’t mean you are doing it right. Have you ever watched guys hitting golf balls at a driving range?

Once the edge is damaged, it must be re-honed, at least touched up.

Like your stone. If you have been shaving off that stone, there is no way you could have achieved a smooth shave ready edge from it as is.

You are not alone and help is but a pm and perhaps a drive away. That is what we are all dong here.

Don’t give up, if you would like send me one or both of your razors and I will make them shave ready, PM me.

I once got a razor that came from the factory with a foil-like edge, like mainaman mentioned. It required stropping mid-shave to be comfortable. It was indeed shave-ready, but not as comfortable as I liked. So I simply gave it a good stropping on canvas followed by a good stropping on leather. I then shaved with that razor for over six years before honing, and only then because I got curious about what I might have been missing in my shaves. (I was missing nothing in sharpness or comfort.) So you might want to just keep stropping your razor as needed, because it might well settle down to needing only to be stropped once per shave.

Solid advice JeffR sometimes a careful and smooth stropping can save a lot of headaches. and straighten a multitude of Razor "sins".