Razor seems dull after 9 shaves

Hello,
Brand new to straight razor shaving. Came into a dubl duck, had it RE-honed, started shaving. It was amazing the first 7 shaves. Now seems like it takes hair, but not a very close shave. Is it possible that improper stropping technique, shave angle of more than 30°, other newbie mistakes have already dulled the blade?

Or maybe not getting a good stropping? I've been running over linen 20 times, then leather 30 times (counting away and back as 1 pass). I'm holding the strop tight, the first few times I was pushing against the leather with the razor, but I've got a good feel of it now, just the weight of the blade on the strop. I've been making two passes, one with the grain and a second across, the past two shaves I've had to clean up with Gillette Fusion.

Thanks!

Yes, possibly either one or a combination but it sounds like you have the stropping figured out and I use more than a 30 degree angle with no issues. A good edge on a duck should last more than 9 shaves. Technique takes a while to master. Barber hones were designed for what you are experiencing (a nice one is on the buy/sell hones page for $18). If you can't acquire a known good barber hone, I would suggest buying a 6" translucent Arkansas from Dan's Whetstones. 8-10 laps on that stone will usually bring the edge right back.

Hello, if I had to guess I would lean towards it being your stropping.Been shaving since last November so I am no expert on the topic. But it did take me months and months of practice to actually start improving my edges. If your shaves are great the first few shaves off a freshly honed razor and only continue to get harsher it is most definitely your stropping. Even when I thought I had it down pat I would still trash an edge once in a while. Don't let set backs like this take the wind out of your sails. Shaving with a straight take a ridiculous amount of time and effort to actually get comfortable shaves. The rule of thumb seems to be 100 shaves.

My edges dulled almost that quickly when I started. Now I get around a hundred shaves between touch ups using just clean strops daily.

I blamed my early experience on high shave angle at the time, but it could have been that my stropping was either damaging or ineffectual. Probably a combination of all three. Fortunately I took to honing very quickly.

The honing aspect was what drew me to straights in the first place. Now I don't do enough of it

Could be a couple of things. When people say they are using an angle on the blade of 30 degrees I always wonder if that was measured with a protractor. ;) From personal experience, when I started shaving with a straight razor I thought I was using the 30 degree angle but later found it better to use the idea of 1 - 2 spine widths gap between face and the spine of the blade. Turns out that was a much smaller gap than what my estimated 30 degrees gave. I believe that more gap than necessary leads to more scraping than cutting and is hard on the face and blade edge.

Stropping could be an issue too. It was for me in the beginning. I now do 40 strokes on linen and 80-100 strokes on leather, a stroke being up and back. The actual stropping technique was hard to get right at the start too. If you technique is right I would try increasing the number of strokes on linen and leather.

In the beginning I dulled a blade faster than I do now. It takes more time than one would think for it all to come together.

Bob

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Originally Posted by BobH

I believe that more gap than necessary leads to more scraping than cutting and is hard on the face and blade edge.

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This is what was my issue was in the beginning. It could be stropping too, I'd maybe double what you're doing now for stropping. However, when I was starting out I was always careful to keep the angle more acute on the side of my face, but would give myself some more freedom on the chin without thinking it was a big deal. Turns out, it is.

Just check and make sure that you're abiding by the 30-degree or 2-spine-width rule all the way from beginning to end of your shave and make sure your stropping technique is sound and your application of stropping is thorough. If that doesn't work, perhaps look into beard prep as this can make a considerable difference on thicker beards.

Food for thought!

Right, 30 degrees is a lot flatter than most people estimate. If you're measuring to the blade center, one spine width would be roughly 24 degrees, and two spine widths would be roughly 40 degrees.

Edit; Measuring to the center of the blade is what makes sense to me, as that is the plane of the scales and the tool.

I've never seen anyone who preaches 30 degrees specify where they are measuring the angle.

If you are counting lying the blade flat to your face as 0 degrees (wrong in my opinion), then the angles would be 16 and 32 respectively assuming a razor with a 16 degree bevel angle.

There are a lot of factors effecting the number of shaves you can get between refreshing an edge. Some of these factors are related to the type of steel in the blade, the way it was heat treated/hardened, the way it was ground and the way it was honed. Some of these factors relate to your strop(s) and stropping technique. Some of these factors relate to the sensitivity of your skin and the toughness of your beard. Some of these factors relate to your shaving technique. Thus, everyone will have a different experience.

While some people might be able to maintain a razor in satisfactory condition for 100 shaves, I tend to touch up my razors on my finishing hone every 5-6 shaves as my tough beard and sensitive face demand a very keen, very smooth edge. I have been unable to maintain the edge I desire with stropping alone for more than a few shaves. If I start to get any tugging whatsoever, I will try a pasted strop. If that does not restore the edge to my satisfaction, off to the finishing hone it goes for a touch-up.

It is good to get advice from others, but in the end, it is your face and your razor, so do whatever works for you. Just because someone else might be able to get 100 shaves out of a blade with stropping alone does not mean you will be able to do so.

Appreciate the feedback and suggestions... I was a little discouraged. Would be awesome to actually shave with someone that knows how to do this. My surviving grandfather is 94 and hasn't used a straight in several decades. Seems like it is probably everything. I should mention that I am shaving my head, lining my beard and shaving my neck. I'll increase the stropping, see if I can get the razor sharper. I'll also keep close watch on the angle and give a little extra time to prep. I just got a badger hair brush, first use this morning - HUGE difference over the ever-ready boar's hair brush that belonged to my great-grandfather. See where this gets me...

I 've been shaving with a straight off and on for many years and I have never been able to get 100 shaves from a single straight razor. I have a very tough beard and the hairs grow very close together - so the density of my beard is also fairly high. With proper stropping, I can probably get a month out of blade before it needs to hit the touch up hones again. I shave 6 days a week.

There is a lot of variability in what factors affect the edge - I agree with RayClem. There's a lot of variables here - and I don't think there is a standard number of shaves one can get out of a straight razor.

Adam

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Originally Posted by ARP

Appreciate the feedback and suggestions... I was a little discouraged. Would be awesome to actually shave with someone that knows how to do this. My surviving grandfather is 94 and hasn't used a straight in several decades. Seems like it is probably everything. I should mention that I am shaving my head, lining my beard and shaving my neck. I'll increase the stropping, see if I can get the razor sharper. I'll also keep close watch on the angle and give a little extra time to prep. I just got a badger hair brush, first use this morning - HUGE difference over the ever-ready boar's hair brush that belonged to my great-grandfather. See where this gets me...

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That's a lot of surface area. I use to shave my head but not with a straight - I used a DE. DE blades on my beard lasted 3-5 shaves. On my head they lasted 2-3 shaves. The fact that you're shaving your head makes a big difference on the life of your razor.

Adam

One thing that did help me on my stropping was to set the strop down on a flat hard surface to help keep the angle right. And it helps technique and saves your stop from as many nicks. The balsa strop with chromium oxide on one side and iron oxide on the other help to revive a lightly dulled edge. For me at least. The shaving technique varies from beard to beard. Mine took about two and a half months to come around, so don't get discouraged and enjoy having all the parts come together for you.

Good points, both Adam and Ray. My beard is fairly light and I wear a Van Dyke.:hmmm:

I agree with everyone so far, I struggle still with proper beard prep, and my very thick coarse beard lets my edge know. I would watch like every stropping video you can find and really focus on developing proper technique. It take 100 strokes to learn proper technique and 10,000 to undo improper technique.

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Originally Posted by BobH

When people say they are using an angle on the blade of 30 degrees I always wonder if that was measured with a protractor. ;)

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Haha, I got a good laugh out of this! :rofl2:

My first guess would be angle and stropping, with angle, try starting with it flat to your face and slowly raise it until you find the sweet spot, which will probably be flatter than you think it should be. With stropping, practice with a butter knife to build some muscle memory and don't use much pressure, maybe 1/2" drop in the center with a taut strop (not so taut as to pull hooks out of the wall!!), a barber hone or CoOx pasted paddle will really help with touchups.

Try and find a mentor near you, that will REALLY help

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Originally Posted by rodb

Try and find a mentor near you, that will REALLY help

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Anyone on here in the suburbs south of Pittsburgh?

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Originally Posted by ARP

Hello,
Brand new to straight razor shaving. Came into a dubl duck, had it RE-honed, started shaving. It was amazing the first 7 shaves. Now seems like it takes hair, but not a very close shave. Is it possible that improper stropping technique, shave angle of more than 30°, other newbie mistakes have already dulled the blade?

Or maybe not getting a good stropping? I've been running over linen 20 times, then leather 30 times (counting away and back as 1 pass). I'm holding the strop tight, the first few times I was pushing against the leather with the razor, but I've got a good feel of it now, just the weight of the blade on the strop. I've been making two passes, one with the grain and a second across, the past two shaves I've had to clean up with Gillette Fusion.

Thanks!

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Seven is good or not good depending...
I can dull a razor in half a shave by holding the spine way too high (45 degrees).
That can happen on my chin or mustache as I go over the hard angles of my face,
chin, jaw and even Adam's Apple.

Stropping half way into a shave can help...

Use the canvas less, strop less, strop smoother.

I lay my razor flat on my face and lift the spine a bit and shave
no more than the width of a postage stamp. I back up half that
and shave another stamp width.

A strop will not sharpen an edge it can restore an edge. Once the edge
is slightly rolled more shaving will roll it more... three or four strokes
on the strop can recover a slight roll but less likely if you keep trying
to push it through whiskers like mine.

I often pause, apply lather, strop five perhaps ten smooth strop strokes, freshen
the lather and continue. The lighter the touch razor to whisker the easier it is
to feel what is happening.

A balsa strop with CrOx is easier to find (or make) than a good barber hone.
An 8K modern hone can be better than many barber hones. Use it
the same... splash ... three or five hone strokes, strop and shave.
Canvas after any hone... but not too much.

This is one nice video on refreshing a razor...
https://youtu.be/ <---- worth a look!

CrOx is green and easy to see even if it gets on the carpet.
Diamond is cleaner.
I use a 12K hone for my refresh...


The pyramid method works with a minimum of hones and expense.

In spite of many stropping experiments, good quality hones and razors I don't usually get more than 10 shaves out of an edge before touching up on the hones. I might be able to get more shaves out of an edge but that wouldn't be really comfortable shaves.

I also thought my razors were getting dull after a few shaves.

I put some effort into improving my stropping technique and my razors mysteriously got 'sharper', without going back to the hones.

I combined that with advice from this forum about not putting any more pressure on the blade than was necessary to keep the blade in contact with the skin. It's like my Dad used to say out in the shop, "Let the blade do the work".

As it turns out, my razors were plenty sharp, but I was employing poor technique that needed improvement, and addressing these two items changed the character of my straight razor shaves.

:)

A diamond-pasted balsa strop is also a good way to keep an edge fresh almost indefinitely

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Originally Posted by WildWest74

A diamond-pasted balsa strop is also a good way to keep an edge fresh almost indefinitely

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I do the same with CrOx pasted paddles, it's my best tool for keeping razors shaving for a long time.

So... I stropped, 40 passes on linen and 100 on leather. Whether it was improper stropping, shaving angle or just dulling with 9 shaves, the sharpness is not coming back with just the strop. I used it this morning after all of the stropping and same as yesterday, scratching, not shaving closely. Reading all the comments (thanks again!) I'm torn between Chromium oxide or just buying a hone. It seems that the proper thing to do would be both... use the Chromium oxide until it "doesn't cut it" anymore and then use the hone.

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Originally Posted by Kees

In spite of many stropping experiments, good quality hones and razors I don't usually get more than 10 shaves out of an edge before touching up on the hones. I might be able to get more shaves out of an edge but that wouldn't be really comfortable shaves.

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Goes to show it is all so very personal. My razors rarely see a touch up.

I remember trying a razor honed on a synthetic progression, finished on the Suehiro Gokumyo 20k. The shave was fine, no complaints (very much like a sharp chromium oxide finish), but I was quite disappointed to find the edge was getting noticeably uncomfortable in use (during the shave) by the 7-8 shave.

I feel a good edge should give a comfortable shave for at least 20 shaves before I notice pretty much any edge deterioration. If it doesn't, I know something is up with my stropping, prep or possibly even razor.

That or my edge is too thin/fragile, but honing on coticules and Thüringer stones makes that a rather unlikely scenario.

Best regards,

Pieter

Pithor you have touched on something I believe with all my heart, although technique, stropping(the most important aspect) prep and ones own beard play a big roll in how long and edge lasts. But in our quest for the ultimate edge, we keep getting that edge so fine it has no strength. I noticed from my own tests that once I could get a very nice edge from an 8k Be it synthetic or Coticule equivalent, it was an edge that would shave well longer than one off of a 12k and even longer than the 20k.

No to the OP remember more laps n the strop doesn't help unless they are good laps, cause 20 laps bad are even worse at 100 laps. Stropping takes some time to master, and when you do you will be able to improve an edge. Also if you have a junk razor 9 shaves might fe all you could get. I personally have a tough beard and shave everyday, I can go for months with just a strop, I don't but can. I adopted a maintenance routine that keeps my razor shaving with a couple or four laps on a 12k every 14 or so shaves. Tc

Sigh...I need to work on my blade angle. Thanks for the reminder...



Not that I mind breaking out the stones and refreshing my edges!!!

ARP, where are you located? It is possible that there is a member nearby who could help you in person--both with edge evaluation and honing.

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Originally Posted by Utopian

ARP, where are you located? It is possible that there is a member nearby who could help you in person--both with edge evaluation and honing.

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That would be great! I'm in Pittsburgh.

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Originally Posted by ARP

That would be great! I'm in Pittsburgh.

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Here's users who list Pittsburgh as their location
http://straightrazorpalace.com/membe...astvisit&pp=50

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Originally Posted by ARP

Hello,
Brand new to straight razor shaving. Came into a dubl duck, had it RE-honed, started shaving. It was amazing the first 7 shaves. Now seems like it takes hair, but not a very close shave. Is it possible that improper stropping technique, shave angle of more than 30°, other newbie mistakes have already dulled the blade?

Or maybe not getting a good stropping? I've been running over linen 20 times, then leather 30 times (counting away and back as 1 pass). I'm holding the strop tight, the first few times I was pushing against the leather with the razor, but I've got a good feel of it now, just the weight of the blade on the strop. I've been making two passes, one with the grain and a second across, the past two shaves I've had to clean up with Gillette Fusion.

Thanks!

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I've been straight shaving for about 3 years now(November 2014) and to my experience there's fews things that went wrong.
#1 Stroping is VERRY VERRY IMPORTANT, getting the right technic of stroping and also the amount of laps is a big factor. For me 20 on the fabric and 60 to 100 on leather depending on the whith of your straight(5/8, 6/8, 7/8 etc..)
#2 about the angle to my experience your suppose to scrape the lather and not your face, so the 30 degrees angle is just a average. A sharp blade will cut whiskers when you scrape the lather and will prevent any irritation or razor burn.
#3 if you can find a barber hone to refresh your straight you still use chromox, diamond paste etc.. it could be on a strop or on balsa. Good luck

Stropping is a learned art. Screw ups go along with building muscle memory. I haven't read the full text here, but I refresh a blade when I feel it needs it by giving it no more than 10 laps on a Crox pasted strop, clean it off with a rag, then 40 laps on linen or whatever, then at least 60 on the leather. Take your time. It isn't a race, and you will be fine.