I always use linen before the leather.
This is a common practice for most of us.
I always use linen before the leather.
This is a common practice for most of us.
Most of my edges are from my coticule. After around 25-30 shaves the edge starts to leave the area that I like it in, although it usually only takes few strokes on the coticule to bring it back
I thought that I’d replied to this thread but apparently I have not.
I’ve done two tests maintaining edges with just a strop and am in the process of a third test. The first two were with a Cape 1000 Swedish Steel and a Filarmonica 14 Doble Temple. Both got to around 65 shaves before I threw in the towel on them, and they still shaved well enough, they’d just lost enough smoothness and gotten ‘pully’ to the point that I re-honed them.
The current test is with a Filarmonica 14 Sub Cero, and I’m wanting to know if the harder steel makes a longer lasting edge. I’m at shave 43 and it’s still shaving well, but I’ll know before too much longer.
I’m using a 3-piece Kanoyama strop, plus a piece of Tony Miller flax linen. My maintenance stropping routine is 35 suede/t5 leather. About once a week I add 20 canvas before the suede and leather, and once the edge starts losing some ‘freshness’ around 35 shaves or so, I use 30 linen about once a week before the suede and leather.
Hope this helps shed some insight on edge longevity. I do a 2-pass shave with a dry ATG cleanup pass on the neck, sp 65 shaves amounts to about 150 passes.
I’ll post when the Sub Cero gives it up.
Shave #50 - half a ‘century’ on the Filly 14 Sub Cero edge longevity test. It seems to be holding it’s in-shave comfort/smoothness better than the Filly 14 DT and the Cape 1000 that I previously tested and got around 65 shaves each. Both of those previous razors I would have touched up at 50 based on in-shave smoothness if they were a daily driver, but not so much this one. It’s still shaving well enough to satisfy my edge snobbiness.
I’m maintaining it only with a 3-piece Kanoyama strop, normal post-shave stropping is 35 suede and 65 cordovan. About once every 7-10 days I’ve been adding +20 Tony Miller linen to that stropping routine, starting at about shave #35.
Shave 55 on the Filly Sub Cero, movin’ right along, performing well.
Got 87 on my kinfolks before sending it out. Got a lot more out of it just doing 3-5 ultra light laps on a Nani 12k and leaded leather. Maybe 150. Used one of Marty’s CBN strops on one razor. Don’t know how many shaves on it but it hasn’t seen a stone in over 3 years
You can keep one going forever with pastes so it’s said. I wanted to do a couple of things with these tests, one is to compare one razor to another. A Cape Swedish Steel was the first razor that I tested, and I got 63 shaves I think, and 67 for a Filly Doble Temple. I would have thought the Cape would have gone further than the DT, but they were both about the same. They both still shaved well enough, they just weren’t smooth and not any fun to shave with so I ended the experiment at that point. Deciding when to end the test is probably the biggest factor, kind of like how many licks it takes to get to the center of a Tootsie Pop - 3!
Shave #65 on the Filly 14 Sub Cero this morning, still going strong.
So many factors at play. Let me see if I can list the main ones.
1. Your personal standard for shave ready sharpness. This varies a LOT! Plenty of guys who shave daily off an 8k or a Swaty 3 line or whatever, that are quite happy with that sort of edge. They know the tricks to getting the most out of a razor, and their technique is on point in every detail. They don't expect the razor to do the work. They do it. Then again there are guys who want nothing less than the sharpest edge physically possible on razor steel, and their work is not in getting a meh edge to shave beautifully, but in keeping all the blood inside their skin when the edge is sharp enough to almost frighten the whiskers off the face. I am one of the spoiled. I wont finish a shave if the edge is just average professional quality. I want better. But a man who customarily shaves off a coticule would definitely NOT like my edges and would take him a couple of shaves to relearn on an edge that I find pleasing. So you have extremes and everything in between.
2. Then there is shave technique. Your personal shaving style can make up for an edge that might be sort of dull or might be sort of sharp. Also your shave style makes a difference in how fast the edge deteriorates. A high shave angle (gap of 1-1/2 x the spine thickness or more) will wear an edge much faster than a gap of only one spine thickness or less.
3. Honing matters. Some edges are brilliantly sharp but have a considerable fin element. A very concave bevel just behind the apex, usually from too much pressure but sometimes from just too many laps without any realistic effort at preventing wire or fin edge. Such an edge won't last as long and in the extreme, won't last a single shave, though no experienced honer is going to make an edge like that. OTOH someone who likes to add a microbevel or a razor that has a very acute bevel angle that the honer corrects with a microbevel, will be fairly robust but still be percieved as sharp.
4. The steel. Alloying steel for such a specialized use as razors is a balancing act and an exercise in compromise. Even more important is the heat treating and tempering. Very hard steels naturally tend to hold an edge longer than soft steels. OTOH they also might chip out more easily. A softer steel will be quicker to hone but can deceive the honer into taking off too much steel and not quitting while he is ahead.
5. Hair texture. If you have a thick wiry Bluto beard, you are going to go through edges a bit faster than me. If you have a whispy silky beard, you are going to get a lot more life out of an edge than me. This is a big one, if you are near one extreme or the other.
6. Maintenance routine. Me, I strop on lapped balsa after every shave, with .1u diamond paste rubbed deeply into the balsa and the balsa surface wiped clean so there is no coating. I never have to re-hone, though some would say that such stropping blurs the line between stropping and honing because some slight amount of steel is removed. But anyway, such amount goes unnoticed even after years of use, and it keeps the razor off the stones and off the film, preventing wear from the heavier grit of the finisher. Some guys like to touch up weekly or so on CrOx and FeOx and yeah they eventually have to hit the finisher again, but they can stretch it out quite a long time. It has been several years since I have re-honed a razor in my rotation, even my modded Gold Dollars with "soft" steel which is actually probably around 59c at best guess. With nothing but stropping on clean leather, some razors for some shavers will give up after a dozen shaves and some will go on for 100 shaves or more. Without supplemental edge maintenance, edge life will suffer greatly, or hardly at all, depending on the other factors.
7. Stropping. Some guys kill an edge in stropping it. You can have a bad strop, but usually it is the user who is bad at stropping. Especially a beginner.
8. Love of honing. Yeah, it's a thing. Some guys just love to hone their razors and will justify a session by even the slightest perceived degradation in the edge. Was that a "pull"? Let's get out that 20k or that Jnat and wail on it.
And when you sum it all up, an edge can last only a few shaves maybe only ONE shave, or it can last a lifetime before it "needs" to be honed, and normal is what is normal for you. It is your razor. You can count shaves and hone. You can wait for the razor to get dull or start getting dull and hone. Or you can prevent the razor ever getting dull and never hone again. Do it like you feel it. It probably doesn't feel like I have helped much here, but there is no solid answer that applies to all razors or all shavers.
I tell a raw beginner to expect 10 shaves. That's about right for a new guy with zero experience and only knowledge poorly absorbed from the internet, agonizing over the question. A lesson in how to perform a basic sharpness test often reassures him or else sends him looking for a razor that is ACTUALLY shave ready and not just internet shave ready. This can be important because he can't yet properly perform the ultimate sharpness test, which is the shave test.
Just for info, I do a 2-pass shave, WTG and ATG, and a dry ATG cleanup pass on my neck, so 65 passes is 130+, maybe the equivalent of 150?
I also checked the edge with a loupe at shave 65, and it looks surprisingly good. I’ve been afraid to do this thinking that I might see such an ugly edge that I would be compelled to re-hone. Not so, there’s some tiny shiny in some places, and a <1mm ‘crescent’ that’s barely noticeable from letting the edge hit the end of a fingernail once, but a lot of it is still straight, even edge. That’s really kind of astounding that they could make, grind, and temper steel that could take this kind of ‘abuse’ and still keep rollin’ along. It’s not an ‘off the stones’ edge, but it’s remarkably good for the number of shaves, and still pleasant to shave with.
Crescent City’s comments are interesting, but the biggest variable is in deciding when to throw in the towel. I could have continued shaving with the other razors past ~65, but shaving with them wasn’t pleasant anymore, so that’s the end point - when it isn’t fun the edge is dead.
Shave #70, still going well. Not freshly honed but if you shaved with it, you’d find it difficult to believe that there are 70 shaves on this edge with nothing but linen and leather maintaining it. And it’s shaving well both feel and closeness. There’s another thread here discussing this kind of maintenance, and I have apparently settled on a very similar routine independently of that post which I did not see until I started looking because of this one.
I have a razor with 99 shaves and counting. It's presently out of my seven day rotation, but I will not hesitate to keep upping the count if it goes back into use.
I haven't done an edge retention test before, but was spurred to on another thread. Got my WH Morley an Escher edge and have gotten to my 9th shave.
Rarely used a razor twice in a row, let alone actually counting shaves on it. I know I have a couple that saw 40 or more shaves, but thats really just a guess at best. My urge to try a new stone or method usually kicks in when a razor has seen 10 or so shaves.
My routine is 2 pass WTG & ATG on cheeks and 3 passes on the neck. 40-40 linen & leather post shave and 60-125 before a shave on a Kanayama 30k.
The biggest issue for me is that I only shave 2 or 3 times per week due to time constraints, so racking up a high number (over 50 or 60) is gunna take awhile.
Never really kept track. Got some that have only seen leather with a lot of shaves on them though.
If dinnermint hadnt posted it id say it was my post. Thats how close it is to my routine. Even the shave passes.
After the last 12 months of honing to be sure every razors edge was right, ive started my count over. I think the most one razor has to date is 4 shaves. Its on my log so I know its correct. So, I guess I will reply again in 30 years to see where Im at then. As its going to take at least that long when i never use the same razor in 3 or 4 months time. :rofl2:
Sounds like I need to be looking at a quality strop with both leather and linen components.
75 now on the Filly 14 Sub Cero. It will no longer deliver that powdered BBS shave, but it is knocking out DFS every single shave. Not too shabby, it’s still very comfortable shaving and hasn’t changed much since #35 or #40.
Will a quality vintage razor shave noticeably better shave than this Gold Dollar 1996?
Oops. Sorry for stepping in it.
Gold Dollars are a little more sensitive to the finishing hone IMO, but with a good edge they should shave very well. How long is a question that I’d like to answer, but that would require shaving with a GD more than I’d like. Maybe some day. QC is their biggest problem these days but the 66s and 666 Gold Monkeys have been quite good. They still all seem to have that thickening of the edge at the heel which is a PITA, but otherwise they’ve been quite decent. How good they are made seems to be more of an individual razor from a particular batch kind of thing. If you get good ones, order some more quickly from the same vendor, lol.
That said, they’re really not that much fun to shave with, but most of that is the scales. If you have some decent donor scales that fit laying around or can make your own, you’ll be surprised what a difference that makes. In the end, they’re just a 13/16 half hollow about like any other,
Well, my list is this, then:
Second quality vintage razor
Good strop (Tony Miller, maybe)
Either quality lapping film, pasted balsa strips, or beginners set of hones
I'll bite. The question is very subjective and depends on your preferences and exactly what you mean by "better" shave. It's like questioning whether a quality vintage razor will shave noticeably better than a Dovo Special. Or a Boker King Cutter. In general, some will, some won't. The edges of my own Gold Dollars shave my face as good as most quality vintage razors of the same general style, yeah. This is my observation, and not necessarily relevant to you or what you could expect.
Most of the Gold Dollar razors have a rather thick spine, and so a more obtuse bevel angle than the average razor. This may actually be to your liking, or it might not. The shave is to me just a bit different. A finer bevel angle as a general rule will cut more effortlessly but of course that means also that it will be more eager to cut skin if you are careless. The difference might be a good thing for you, might be a bad thing, might be a who cares thing, or might go pretty much unnoticed. It's all on you, the shaver and the judge of your shave. I don't feel deprived, shaving with a 1996, though I admit my favorite razors, apart from my own regrinds of GD66 that I used to do, are #2 Bismarck style razors, both new and vintage. But I don't notice an appreciable difference in shave comfort and closeness. But that's me. I also have a weakness for many American vintages particularly the Union Spike. Again, the final result is more or less the same.
Another reason that YMMV is that whoever hones your razors might be more skilled in one than the other, or looking for a different sort of edge. A poorly honed Gold Dollar is a pretty poor shaver. A poorly honed Genco is, too, but maybe not QUITE as bad due to the better geometry. Variable, subjective, and YMMV.
It has been suggested, usually without empirical testing, that a Gold Dollar will not keep it's edge like the typical $150 razor or an equivalent vintage. On this I am not qualified to say for certain because my razors do not get dull, due to my post shave maintenance with .1u diamond on lapped balsa. I can only guess that some vintage razors would, some wouldn't, keep an edge longer, and that the GD would be about average. Well, an $8 razor OBVIOUSLY is made from inferior steel, right? It makes sense but is not necessarily true. The steel itself is only a small part of the cost of a razor. GD steel is not Best Swedish, but actually isn't that bad. Objective testing should be done before declaring that it is inferior and to what degree, and how edge longevity is affected.
For practice and experimenting with things other than shaving, a low cost, expendable razor is a good thing. But since it is probably the exact same steel, maybe go with a 66 instead of a 1996. The grind quality has improved a bit lately and they make very effective fodder for just trying "stuff".
Don't listen to the fans or the haters. Listen to yourself. I say if you are curious about the GD 1996, get one. It is cheaper to try one than to try a new high end soap. Way cheaper than to try a new silvertip brush. If you are not so curious then don't. You won't be depriving yourself. Lots of good vintage razors out there looking for a home. And there is a certain security in following the road more traveled.
Shave #80 and still going. Not fresh and delivering ‘baby dolphin butt smooth’ shaves, but still kicking out DFS every time. It isn’t tugging (yet), and the edge shows some wear toward the toe, but the middle of the edge is straight and clean. I’ve been trying for 10 shaves/month, or 30% duty cycle to keep the test going, and the razor was honed on May 24th 2019, so it isn’t too far from 1 year at 30%. Not too shabby. This is a really nice user grade razor that I got from Stefan (mainaman) to be a user, and boy it’s sure done that. I’ll post in 10 more shaves if it’s still going, and I believe that it will be.
Here are some stats: 200 passes across my face (2 passes plus a half pass cleanup), 8000+ passes across suede and leather, and 120 passes across canvas or linen.
Your Filly is definitely at the high end of the "user grade" category. I wouldn't mind having a set of them!
I put 'Lime Twist' back into my rotation today for its 100th shave.
I dont have that kind of patience. I usually touch up before I get to 100
Shave #88 with the Filly 14 Sub Cero, the edge is still shavin’ on putting out DFS. The edge has not touched anything but linen, canvas, suede, and leather, no abrasives. The little kiita is literally a prop, to hold the razor up. I was getting tired of the same old images and wanted something different.
With a high mileage edge like this one, I have noticed that soaps make a difference - you can tell, and it doesn’t necessarily depend on price though I usually don’t use cheaper soaps just as a matter of enjoying the shave. So far, 3P (one of the cheapest), AoS Ocean Kelp, AdP and ABC (two of the most expensive), IC Mango, And Santa Maria Novella are noticeably good. I think I’ll use the edge to test some others and see how they stack up. It takes a long time to generate a high mileage edge (this one was honed May 24th 2019) so I might as well get some bonus info from it.
Good job Steve, this reinforces what myself and others have tryed to convince so many of, honing all the time means your not doing something right. A properly honed good quality razor, a strop that YOU know how to use properly, and great shave technique and a blade won’t need a stone for a long time and then just a few laps on a finisher. My beard is as tough as anyone’s and I get lots of shaves with just leather and linen
I used to wonder about soaps making much difference until about a year ago. A basic soap will make for an OK shave, but a good slick soap that lathers nice and dosent dry out fast can take a shave to a new level of enjoyment. 88 on one edge is impressive Steve!
Thanks tc, 89 this morning, I’m shooting for 10/month with it.
104 shaves and counting on this one, but it is getting pushed out of my rotation again.
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