I am sure this topic has come up, but as someone new to straight razor shaving, I’m curious about opinions. I started because I inherited a couple of vintage razors, so vintage is all I have used.
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I am sure this topic has come up, but as someone new to straight razor shaving, I’m curious about opinions. I started because I inherited a couple of vintage razors, so vintage is all I have used.
I shave with razor's from the late 1700s to the present.
I much prefer the old steel. But I have no problems shaving with all of them, and enjoy a different razor almost every shave.
I do not believe any modern razor will be better than any vintage razor.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elnones
Almost all of mine are vintage but I have tried modern ones too when honing for others.
Modern razor is a loose term. A modern razor from a reputable maker. It seems like the fit and finish has fallen off, likely due to staffing issues and the skill set of the staff. The steel is still good, and the treatment of the steel is still good. I think a large percentage of the vintage blades, if they were junk, it would be unlikely anyone would have saved them. I have both new and vintage. All of mine shave well. I like to think that I was very selective in what I bought.
I think that most of your vintage steel is good and shaves very well. I have found that some "modern day" steel has some opportunities, depending on the manufacturer. I'll give you an example - I have a razor made in the 1830's that is probably my best razor. Always great shave. Then I have a modern day DOVO that was made in the 2000's. This one is just okay. It needs constant adjustments and I paid a lot of money for it ($260.00). Then I have a "modern day" Gold dollar 208 that I paid $25.00 for (made in China) that actually shaves better than the DOVO.
What's the secret? I have no clue, but I think it has to do with metallurgy, how it's honed and stropped. The better you get at honing and stropping, the better the shave, as long as you have decent steel to work with.
Funny you should mention GD razors. I think the issue with them is they are so very unpredictable. I have very limited experience but there are several people whom options I highly regard, some have a great one, some have junk ones. If they were consistent it would be easier to form a strong opinion. At this point that’s I don’t really know what to think is as defined as my opinion gets.
I have limited experience here. But I will say my Koraat shaves as close and comfortable as any of my vintage razors. It feels different on the hones and against the skin (not in a bad way), but that's to be expected.
When I hear people say, "they just don't make things like they used to," I submit this point..sure they do. There has always been junk made. You just don't see it now because it got thrown out...because it was junk. :shrug: Conversely there is good stuff made now but it is expensive and therefore cost prohibitive. Thus you don't see as much of it because most of us can't afford it.
Theoretically the technology and production quality should be better than before. However conditions (which I will not get into) have made workers more concerned with wages than craftsmanship and environmental regulations have made materials and processes off limits. Not that wages or protecting the environment are bad things but for every action there is a reaction.
EDIT: I should add that I have a ton of vintage and a few new and, on average, I find that they seem to perform equally well and poorly.
In our modern times folks accept poor products as the norm and few complain. Back in the day that was not the case. If you bought a razor and there was a problem you got a new one or your money back in an instant no questions asked. Back then people didn't accept shoddy goods like now. Sure some sold junk but those were fly by night salesmen and outfits and if they were caught, well...
There were inexpensive things made back in the day but still they were well made and didn't fall apart soon after purchase like now. Things these days are engineered to last only so long so you have to come back and keep buying them. Think major appliances. Even common items lasted indefinitely.
If you are willing to pay you can get great quality items but few are willing to pay the price. A great example are with DE Razors. You can buy a cheap plastic item or cheap pot metal one or you can buy a Blackland or Wolfman or one of the other quality razors out there.
No different that we associate items made in China as junk however the Chinese can make high quality items but the importers don't want those type of items and let's face it the American Consumer loves Walmart and Target.
I think the new razors can shave just as good as the old ones and some even prefer it. However the fact that there are so many easier options for shaving - demand and competition is not going to be there. There are a few custom builds, and brands other than dovo that make great razors. Also I have shaved with plenty of not so great vintage razors as well. Mostly people are talking about cream of the crop vintage razors when that is what everyone was shaving with.
That's not even a little bit true. Take cars for instance. I work on cars and I hear people say all the time, "They just don't build cars like they used to." That's true and it's a good thing because they are a lot better now than they were. As recently as 40-50 years ago once a car hit 100k miles it was time for a major overhaul or the junk yard. These days they're not even broken in well at 100k. Appliances are the same way. Most will last forever if you maintain them. The difference is that the global economy has changed the landscape and made products more accessible to the masses. Our consumer culture is a product and the catalyst. Henry Ford was the founder of the idea that his employees should be able to afford the products they made. Before that most laborers lived in abject poverty. Poverty we can't even imagine today in developed countries. I read somewhere about an industry observer from this side of the pond who toured Wade & Butcher's facilities and was shocked at the squalored conditions. I did a job in the same complex as the food stamp office and there was a table out front signing people up to receive on the doal the "basic necessities," you know: cell phones, cable TV, internet. Things that no one should have to live without. Things that people all over the undeveloped and underdeveloped world consider luxuries. Now, we could argue all day about whether this sense of entitlement is right or wrong and that is not really my point. My point is that our expectations have changed. People years ago patched up things and limped by with them because replacement was not an economical possibly. Those same people today throw out reparable appliances for the same reason. The accessibility of products has made it cheaper to replace than repair. We could repair many things today we discard but the repair businesses can't stay afloat because people won't pay the cost. Couple that with the fact with that the same worker who in Henry Ford's day lived without air conditioning and phone and some without running water, indoor plumbing and electricity now feel as though they should share the same creature comforts that Mr. Ford himself enjoyed. I don't contend that anyone who is willing to tow his own load should live in squalor but that is a separate point. The point I am making is that the throw away mentality is not because products are poorer now. It is because of our global economy...yada, yada, yada. Surely you don't think that the "coal miner's daughter," ilk of poor people had higher quality products than today's so called poor living in air conditioned, electric equipped, indoor plumbed, internet accessible homes.Quote:
Originally Posted by thebigspendur
Sentimentality blinds us sometimes to the realities of life and also we tend to have selective memory. The fact is that, if we are honest, for the most part the "good ol' days" sucked or at least were much harder on a basic level. Our perception just changes. Proof of point is this: what happens if you leave the house without your cell phone? We panic. Well, what did we do before there were cell phones? :shrug:
Thanks for this really insightful short essay. Lots to think about. You should be writing for publication.Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulFLUS
For me, Vintage. Hands-down.
Me too, especially when you can find a 100- or 200-year old razor that is NOS or can be brought back to almost new condition. A little hone wear or some patina on the blade or some imperfections or wear on the scales are just evidence of quality and use. If it weren’t well made, it would not have survived as long as it has.Quote:
Originally Posted by sharptonn
Don't confuse advances in technology with quality of construction. Sure old cars didn't have the advanced metallurgy they do now or the advanced lubrications and performance tires and you could go down the list. But there is a difference between that and with the fit and finish. Just go into the basement of a 100 year old house and compare same to say a 40 year old house and look at the beams and supports and all that is "missing" in the new ones. Go measure the 2x4s and how they are exact in the older house and a joke in the newer ones.
I'm old enough to remember when folks bought a major appliance in the 1950s like a stove or refrigerator. The thing never broke. It lasted forever. Maybe the thermostat had to be replaced after 10 years or so and it was an easy cheap repair. People threw out the old because they just wanted a new one with new features or looks. These days if a refrigerator lasts 10 years you are lucky. Taking care of it means little cause most folks aren't going to be moving around a multi hundred pound appliance to get to the back to unscrew parts to vacuum the condensers. Need a new thermostat in your oven now? It means a new control circuit board. It probably around $500 for parts and labor assuming the brand still makes the parts.
It's true you can repair most any appliance. Of course they are made to be repaired the only minor consideration is repair costs have skyrocketed. Just an example here. I have a Bosch wall oven two part appliance. When it was three years old and hardly used the bottom element shorted and in the process blew a hole in the bottom steel plate. The element was replaced but they (Bosch) refused to replace the plate saying it wasn't a replaceable part. Luckily the repair outfit had my exact unit which was headed for the city dump and they pulled the parts from that. That exercise cost me $1200. Now the top unit went out and I refuse to spend that again to fix it. Yes you can repair it but economically it makes more sense to junk it and buy new. Now maybe you be a really handy guy and can repair anything yourself and have access to used parts cause many outfits won't even sell parts to the end-user period. I find in general appliances major or minor simply don't stand up over the years. Yes you can buy higher end and sometimes they really are better and sometimes they are way worse.
But back to razors and we have discussed this topic many many times over the years. If you buy a razor now the the chances are it is not shave ready and the edge is in dreadful condition. There are exceptions of course like most custom razors and some places like Koraat. Back in the day that was a rare occurrence because people took pride in their work unlike now. I know many these days simply can't believe that but it is true.
Designed adolescents.
Spellcheck? LOL
All good points, but one thing to consider are smaller razor makers like Aust, Koraat and some others where the individual making the razor is known, has an established track record and stands behind the product.Quote:
Originally Posted by RezDog
Regarding vintage razors, there is a trap when someone picks-up a “garage find” or “flea market” razor that may have suffered years of abuse and neglect.
Over the years, I have come across new razors from a (once) well-known “mastro” and some vintage razors that took extraordinary efforts from my side to transform them into what I consider acceptable razors.
Lesson learnt: neither “new” nor “vintage” are gurantees by themselves, in a way you still “buy the seller”.
B.
I could rebutt all of the previous as sentimental hogwash and keep an argument suspended in midair but the fact is I feel no need. We all know that no one will admit they are wrong on the internet. I will just say that my house was built in 1996 and we have all the same appliances that came with the house so there goes your 10 years. We did just replace the AC because the compressor shorted and it was an R22 system which has been phased out for supposedly environmental reasons but the fact is that carrier created a new refrigerant and had legislators on their side. Yes I had to spend $5k on a new system and I would be remiss to say that PLANNED OBSOLESCENCE was not a thing. However by the middle of next year I will have made that back in the savings in my electric bill. Why? Because THEY ARE MADE BETTER TODAY THAN EVER.
Just because things don't get repaired doesn't mean they can't be repaired and just because they can be repaired doesn't mean they should be repaired. The premise that things are not made as well today based on these anecdotal snippets is just fallacious.
I take great pride in my work. I see work by others every day also that was quite well done. I think implying that craftsmanship is dead is also not only untrue but insulting.
As far as razors go, I can say that any of us who have had very many Sheffield blades know that they were as wonky as anything you could expect today. Warped spines, wide and uneven bevels, uneven grinds, cracks hidden inside the blades, all can be often found in many of the Sheffield makers. Why do we throw new makers under the bus but give a pass to vintage makers? Again I think it is largely sentimentalism.
You must be the luckiest guy in the world. My house was built in 1983 and let's see I'm on my 4th stove and my third dishwasher and my third refrigerator and I've lost count of smaller appliances like toaster ovens. My A/C had to be replaced last summer after 18 years. Repairs would have cost thousands and we would still have the same old unit which could have failed two days later.Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulFLUS
Of course you see all those issues in old Sheffield razors. They are over 100 years old and you have no knowledge as to how they have been abused and developed all those issues you mention.
Of course there are plenty of small business owners and cottage industry folks who try and do a great job. It's just that they are in the minority.
Well that was fun but I'm getting bored with this.
Let's just say that any of us should be able to tell what was abuse and what was poor workmanship at least most of the time.
I'm going to throw my two cents in the pot.
Vintage vs modern razors is a nonsense question, but you have to have a bit of knowledge to understand why and how.
First things first. Vintage razors went from "pig neutering appliance" to "tool of a trade". While it was not uncommon for a family to have one, they were expensive enough to be transmitted as an inheritence. After all, the simplest razor would cost several days of work for a base worker, and were not an absolute necessity when you had barbers all around and only needed to be clean for church.
They were expensive to produce, and a lot of innovation has been invested in in order to lower the price while maintaining expectations (such as the "Picault framebacks" for example)
The quality on Thiers razors was notably fickle, ranging from very bad from very good, throughout the 19th century. Even in the same brand on the same model you'd have the same quality issues and irregularity that you find on GD razors nowadays.
Haute Marne makers did achieve a better level of quality and reliability, but even they had several levels of prices and quality for their goods, and the quality of the steel was a major point in the price.
On the other hand, unless like yours truly, you spend a lot of time in back country flea markets, you seldom see the worst than has been produced.
Come on, we are suckers for ivory, tortoise or MOP, the kind of razors we are gunning for when looking for vintage are things that nowadays none of us could afford, except for a few whales.
So if you want to compare, say, a vintage Weiss or Lund to anything modern, you would have to look for the best of the best, damn the price.
I'd say low end products are equally shitty, high end products can be either shitty and beautiful or just completely high end. Whatever the time, whatever the product.
But then again, the law does not change. There is no absolute best razor. Only razors you can find that best suit your skin and hair.
I have two razors from the same renown French smith.
One was ordered initially by a good friend of mine. State of the art thing. The steel is SC145 a highly technical steel created by Achim Wirtz, just a metric ton of it has been made AFAIK. Hollow ground. Suited my friend fine but he was looking for something even better. Feels horrible with my skin and hair.
The other was custom made to order by me, reflecting my taste for vintage blades in several aspects. It is absolutely perfect in every way but one : bit too noisy as a wedge for my taste.
And that's my last point : it is also a matter of perception and expectations.
I often defend the motion that hollow ground razors could have happened far earlier in the history of razors. People just DID NOT want them. A noisy razor in the 19th century was a bad razor. They were not "singing blades", they were "rattlers". You can even find patents for hollowed but silent razors (with a half rattler grind if memory serves). What is good and bad changes from time to time, from person to person.
Well, anyway, I stand my point. The question is nonsensical your honor.
What does that have to do with the price of tea in china????
Of course everybody has different opinions and everything is relative. I dare say in this world many if not most love an electric shaver and in this country most use a Gillette cartridge razor and love it. Does that make them better and how do you judge better?
Straight Razors were common items made by the zillions. Everyone had a couple at least, men and women. If you look at a vintage fancy razor from a set with sterling scales and fancy work on the spine and blade and compare that to a common razor do you think the blade quality or workmanship is inferior? I very much doubt it.
When we beat the old dead horse about modern vs vintage you are looking at items that are very old and have been used and abused and you are comparing those to brand spanking new items so any comparison is invalid anyway. I also hope we are not bringing up the notion that most went to a barber and rarely shaved themselves. In many parts of the world people could barely feed themselves let alone go to a barber on a regular basis.
I wonder 100 years from now when someone picks up a Gold Dollar or a Gillette what they will think about it compared to whatever is being made then.
Pics, pics........we want pics!!! :oQuote:
Originally Posted by Aggelos
I might be having trouble inserting images. I hope the image is there. The two razors are the one with the black scales and the one with the yellow scales. The black one is the Wostenholm.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tathra11