I solved my problem but you won't believe the solution

Remember my post about my deteriorating shave problem? My edge would degenerate to the point where I had to go all the way back to 1000 grit to get my bevel back. Well, guess what I just did? Did 1000 grit to completely remove the edge, then went to the Cushioned Strop hone, and stopped. I completely skipped the Gem hone and Lithide hone.

Best. Shave. Ever.

Did my face. Did my head. No problem. Baby's-butt smooth.

Is it possible that my hair is so damn coarse that it rakes a fine edge completely off? What grit is the Cushioned Strop hone on the Norton scale? About 4000? Can't be much finer than that.

So I guess if I ever get a Norton, I should buy the 1000/4000 instead of the 4000/8000?!? Anybody wanna buy a Gem hone & a Lithide hone?

I think your going to get a lot of comments on this one. :)

What kind of razor do you use? Strange as this may sound, I have a pocket knife that I can get sharp enough to shave with by just stropping on a pasted bench strop at the preset bevel. The reason for this is that the knife is a SUPER high carbon content steel (blackens if you look at it funny). If your razor has a very high carbon content, its might be so soft that you're 1) losing sharpness very quickly (my problem with that knife) and 2) way overhoning on your hones.

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Originally Posted by shotwell1234

What kind of razor do you use? Strange as this may sound, I have a pocket knife that I can get sharp enough to shave with by just stropping on a pasted bench strop at the preset bevel. The reason for this is that the knife is a SUPER high carbon content steel (blackens if you look at it funny). If your razor has a very high carbon content, its might be so soft that you're 1) losing sharpness very quickly (my problem with that knife) and 2) way overhoning on your hones.

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I thought carbon increased the hardness of steel but also increased its brittleness. Am I reading you right?

Justin

You could be absolutely right, what I should have said was "the carbon content is such that the blade blackens anytime moisture gets on it. Also, this blade loses its edge very quickly but sharpens faster than any other metal i've worked with." I'll do some quick research and get the metal specs too :fim:.

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Originally Posted by shotwell1234

You could be absolutely right, what I should have said was "the carbon content is such that the blade blackens anytime moisture gets on it. Also, this blade loses its edge very quickly but sharpens faster than any other metal i've worked with." I'll do some quick research and get the metal specs too :fim:.

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I'm not trying to be a stinker --- all in good gesture. ;)

Justin

No harm, you were absolutely right. Linked is the wikipedia article on carbon steel. Next time I'll read it first. I think we'll just have to wait for the response to figure out what kind of razor it is and see if that meshes with other experiences people have had.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_steel

I have two razors, a Joseph Allen and a Wade & Butcher, both carbon steel. The Wade is both thinner & harder than the Allen.

Edit: question about the CS hone moved to the hones section where it probably belongs.

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Originally Posted by shotwell1234

The reason for this is that the knife is a SUPER high carbon content steel (blackens if you look at it funny). If your razor has a very high carbon content, its might be so soft that you're 1) losing sharpness very quickly (my problem with that knife) and 2) way overhoning on your hones.

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Your knife isn't getting sharp and going dull easily due to the carbon content, it just isn't properly hardened. I would bet that if you have it Rockwell tested it isn't over 50. A good knife should be between 56-61 Rc. High carbon steel is more easily hardened and generally tougher than stainless steels at the same hardness. Your knife sharpens easily because it's very soft, but can't hold that edge because, well, it's very soft.

Johnny, do you have a Radio Shack microscope or a jeweler's loupe? If so, what does the scratch pattern on the edge look like? I'm curious about your results too, that goes against all conventional wisdom. Not to say I don't believe you, I just wonder how and why that works.

Hey Roadrunner, I'm not sure I believe it either. I have a full description of my experiment in Advanced Honing, in the cushioned strop hone thread. The short answer is, the coarser edge does a smooth job, but a little less comfortably, and starts pulling by the 3rd or 4th shave. The fine edge is more comfortable but gets eaten alive.

Maybe it doesn't go against ALL conventional wisdom. I've heard it said that guys with tough beards get better results out of a 6K hone than an 8K hone. Kind of like how a microserrated edge is better for cutting rope.

I have a 10X jeweler's loupe but I can't see much through it.

No, IMO that is absolutely not possible. You just did not have a good enough edge established on the low grits originally. Going back to the course grits for more work established a good edge, now you can polish it on the finishing stones to get a smoother shaving edge.

Right, but I don't get many good shaves out of the fine edge before I have to start all over again.

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Originally Posted by Johnny J

Right, but I don't get many good shaves out of the fine edge before I have to start all over again.

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I have not read your other thread but if you are having this problem then you either did not have a great edge to start with or your stropping is somewhat lacking. Do you have a honemeister sharpened razor to compare your edges to or are you learning to shave and hone at the same time?

David

I've been at this for about two years. I've got the shaving part pretty much down. When I first started, I had a honemeister hone my blade, and I think I got a couple weeks out of his edge. That was so long ago, it's hard to remember what else I may have been doing wrong. Since then I've been honing myself. The edges that I put on are great for about the first 3 shaves, then they start to deteriorate.

You think my stropping is at fault? You're sure it's not the combination of soft steel, hard beard, & 3-pass shaves? I have a loom strop & use it with a very light touch (I've been told it's easy to overdo the pressure with loom strops).

I would check your stropping technique. Coincidentally (or maybe not so much) you can take a shave ready straight and get like 3 shaves from it before you really need to strop.

You know what? Now you got me thinking. I have never used a pasted strop, plus I tend to get a bit heavy-handed when the blade gets a little dull & I'm not getting a close enough shave. I wonder if I'm dulling the blade on my face?! Tonight I re-did the edge on the Allen totally from scratch using all 3 hones & shaved with a deliberately light hand. The edge felt a lot better when I was done than it normally does. I'm going to keep a log & see how many shaves I get out of it, being gentle & using the pasted side of the strop to touch it up. With my heavy beard, if I can get a month out of it w/o having to touch a hone, I'll plant the victory flag.

Shaver with heavy beards, take heed.

I think I'm closing in on my answer. So far, my results are very encouraging. Here are some observations & mistakes I've been making:

Observation 1: The Gem hone & Lithide hone are for polishing. The cushioned strop hone is the only one that's aggressive enough to (re)establish a bevel. That's why the cushioned strop hone by itself gives a pretty good shave: it's somewhere around 6K grit. You can get a more comfortable shave with a more polished edge, but you can still do a good job right off the 6K if you want to.

Observation 2: Even though the 6K edge is less sharp than a fully polished edge, it FEELS sharp because the micro-teeth grab the hair & won't let it go.

Mistake 1: being too heavy-handed. After reading what others have posted here, I realized I was WAY too heavy-handed, both while shaving and while stropping. You can destroy a polished edge in 2 shaves this way. A less fine edge is more tolerant of such abuse, but using a less fine edge may be merely masking flawed technique.

Mistake 2: trying to maintain the edge with the Lithide hone instead of strop paste. Both will polish an edge that already has a good bevel, but repeated use of the Lithide hone tends to raise a burr in a way that strop paste doesn't. (Actually, the Gem hone & Lithide hone may be somewhat superfluous. The right pastes could probably polish just as effectively, right off the cushioned strop hone).

Mistake 3: trying to discard the cushioned strop hone. This is related to mistake 1. When the bevel is gone, you need to use a hone that can get the bevel back. That's the cushioned strop hone. You can't get the bevel back with a polishing finish hone like the Lithide (unless you want to spend all night, & maybe not even then). All you're doing is making the rounded-off bevel shinier & shinier.


So by lightening up my touch & using the pasted side of the strop for maintenance instead of the Lithide hone, I'm getting BBS shaves without the destruction I observed before. I'm keeping a shaving log. We'll see how many shaves I get. I'm sure I won't get 3 months out of it the way some guys do, but if I can get one month of BBS shaves instead of steadily deteriorating shaves, I'll plant the victory flag.

(I may also go looking for a stainless wedge: both my razors are soft & hollow-ground.)