Trouble with a TI

Last Christmas I bought a beautiful new TI Guillochage and even though I have had it honed properly it still seems to give me a rough shave, when I say rough I mean that the first pass is sort of Tuggy. I have a few razors but mostly use a pair of Joseph Rodgers 11/16 and a Mastro Livi regrind all sharpened by the same honer which all give smoother shaves. My question is, does the grind affect the smoothness of the first pass, would I be better with a less ground more wedge like blade. I have a coarse beard and suspect the 'singing blade' may be the cause. Can anybody shed some light on the different grinds and their effects on shaving. Many thanks.

PM Hoglahoo on this one if he doesn't respond. He did a grind experiment that may be on going.

IM (humble) O the full hollow grinds take a lot more paying attention too when it comes to technique. They are less stiff and skip around on my face if I am being lazy. I have a bonsa 5/8 full hollow that gives me great comfortable shaves but is harder to control on my face.

Hope this helps!
:tu

Not that familiar with the problem myself, but from what I've heard on other posts, the wedges do seem to do better with the coarser beards. More than likely because there is more metal behind the edge keeping the blade stiffer.

I have numerous razors of different grinds including TI's and Grelot's as well as a dense beard. My expereince is that tugging comes when the edge is not sharp enough. Doing your own honing is one way to solve your problem. Honignthe edge until its right for your beard is the best answer.

I sold my full hollow Friodurs as the way they shaved did not agree with my face/whisker/skin combo. They would give me a nice, close shave. But they felt a bit harsh while doing so.

I now like razors with a bit more beef to them.

My theory is that the flexible full hollow edge can be deflected by oncoming beefy whiskers downwards into your skin, thus leading to a not so pleasant feeling shave.

As an example, here is a pic I posted about the flexibility of a Wapi edge (OK, not a full hollow, but shows a good example of edge deformation):
http://straightrazorpalace.com/attac...dge-deform.jpg

I was only using very light pressure in that pic, and the edge flexed right back into original shape as soon as the pressure was released.

Guys with lighter whiskers may never experience this phenomenon, and for them perhaps one razor grind may be as good as another.

Or perhaps I have no idea what I'm talking about.

Aha, now I think I understand the grind thing, the more the grind so to speak, the less stiff the edge. I have a pair of Joseph Rodgers 11/16 with not to much grind which feel 'stiffer' and give a more comfortable first pass - now this makes sense. Many thanks to those who replied.

As you go from grind to grind the feel of the razor does change however as long as the razor is shave ready I don't care what kind of beard you have you should be getting a close and comfortable shave no matter the grind. if you don't you need to do more honing. remember that most barbers (many years ago) used hollow grinds and they had to shave everyone who walked into their shop. If the big razor guys were right and you can't get a comfortable shave from a 5/8s hollow grind if you have a tough beard how did the barbers of yesteryears do it?

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

As you go from grind to grind the feel of the razor does change however as long as the razor is shave ready I don't care what kind of beard you have you should be getting a close and comfortable shave no matter the grind. if you don't you need to do more honing. remember that most barbers (many years ago) used hollow grinds and they had to shave everyone who walked into their shop. If the big razor guys were right and you can't get a comfortable shave from a 5/8s hollow grind if you have a tough beard how did the barbers of yesteryears do it?

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So true.

If you prep right, use a good soap, hone and strop right any decent razor will comfortably shave any beard.

Some steels and their heat treatment may result in smoother shaving razors than others but that is not related to the grind.

The weight of the razor can also make a difference in the feeling of the shave... A heavier razor carries more momentum.
However if the razor sems to be pulling, it might not be as sharp as you are accustomed to.
Honestly pretty much everyone here will judge shave ready differently.
What is right for me may be too sharp for someone else, and not sharp enough for you.:shrug:
My suggestion would be lots of stropping. start on either linen or newspaper, and see if you can refine the edge a bit.
100+ passes on black news print can work wonders...

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

As you go from grind to grind the feel of the razor does change however as long as the razor is shave ready I don't care what kind of beard you have you should be getting a close and comfortable shave no matter the grind. if you don't you need to do more honing. remember that most barbers (many years ago) used hollow grinds and they had to shave everyone who walked into their shop. If the big razor guys were right and you can't get a comfortable shave from a 5/8s hollow grind if you have a tough beard how did the barbers of yesteryears do it?

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Who says the guy from yesteryear had a comfortable shave when he went to the barbers? Did you read that Mark Twain short story that was posted a while back? That is pretty close to an actual SOTD account from back in the day, not just wistful thinking that barbers were some kind of shaving shamen who could do no wrong and possesed omniscient knowledge of all things sharp & shiny. Barbers are average Joes who cut hair and whiskers for a living, some are quite talented, others not so much. Just like any of us.

Perhaps if that was his only point of reference, he may have just accepted that that is what a straight razor shave felt like.

And from what I see on Ebay, most of the older razors that say "for barbers use" are pretty damn beefy.

The razors may have then evolved into full hollows, but does that make them better? After the full hollow came the sfaety razor, then the disposable, the electric, the Mach 1, 2, 3, 4, 5....

Is that progession really progress?:hmmm:;)

As I said, my full hollows gave a close, effective shave, but I didn't care for the feel of them on my face during the shave itself. The people I sold them to reported that they shaved them quite well.

Perhaps it was just the way the Friodurs shaved me? Perhaps I should try a different brand full hollow?

Hmmmm....I'll keep my eyes peeled on the B/S/T for the TI Gulliage(sp?) the Barbelus will no doubt be unloading for pennies on the dollar...:rolleyes:

I knew a half dozen barbers over a twenty five year period beginning in the mid '60s. When I asked about their preference in straight razors all of them preferred Solingen made full hollows. A few specifically mentioned Dubl Duck and one I recall favored FWE . Back in the early '60s when a buck would buy you lunch, a pack of Camels and a gallon of gasoline you paid a couple of dollars for a barber to shave you.

It was a treat that I engaged in a few times but working for a dollar an hour as many did in those days I didn't indulge myself too often. I can't recall getting an uncomfortable shave in the half dozen times I went for it. I guess that those guys had to maintain a level of expertise if they wanted a customer to come back.

By the mid '70s very few barbers still offered shaves where I was. The older guys didn't want to be bothered I guess or maybe at the five bucks it had gone up to. Not many customers wanted to spend the money. By then the hair stylist was replacing the old time barber shop and they didn't offer shaves ever. For me I get good shaves out of either full hollow or heavier grinds if they are sharp enough. If it pulls it isn't shave ready for me. That chrom ox is magic stuff and can make a heck of a difference BTW.

Oh dear, looks like I've caused a bit of a stir. I'm not a honer, I tried and really couldn't be bothered with all the messing around, I just want to shave comfortably. Since I've been using a brush and soap for over 20 years I would say I'm fairly well experienced in that department. The guy who hones my razors seems to know what he's doing as the Joseph Rogers pair I bought from him ages ago are still shaving nicely. My TI has always felt harsh even on the second pass when their is very little stubble left despite being honed a few times. I have decided to experiment with more wedgy razors as they seem to suit my heavy beard better.

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Originally Posted by Barbelus maximus

Oh dear, looks like I've caused a bit of a stir. I'm not a honer, I tried and really couldn't be bothered with all the messing around, I just want to shave comfortably. Since I've been using a brush and soap for over 20 years I would say I'm fairly well experienced in that department. The guy who hones my razors seems to know what he's doing as the Joseph Rogers pair I bought from him ages ago are still shaving nicely. My TI has always felt harsh even on the second pass when their is very little stubble left despite being honed a few times. I have decided to experiment with more wedgy razors as they seem to suit my heavy beard better.

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Ave Barbelus Maximus!:tu

I honestly think that you should re-hone your str8 razor from the beginning, meaning honing from a 1000 grit stone (or other) and going up...

New razors are NOT honed as they should because the manufacturers don't want to damage either the spine nor the gold imprint for esthetic reasons...

Consequently, they are not shave-ready has one could imagine...:nj

Have a great day!

BBS yours,:tu

Valentin

Barbelus Maximus. Great username reminds me of Python's "Life of Brian" but I digress.

Just another thought. If you're really sure its honed correctly maybe your stropping is causing the problem. A microscope is a great way to confirm both these things.
You obviously have experience with wet shaving but how many straights have you stropped. Is it possible your wedges can tolerate a few bad passes compared to the thinner TI.

Hang in there it's all fun and learning. Hope you sort it out.

Thanks for all the answers. I don't do honing!!!!!!!! I hadn't considered a stropping problem. To be honest it pretty well looks like the TI will be retired as I really do just want to shave and be on my way.

Get your TI professionally honed and then just practice practice practice. Your technique is more important than a razor's grind especially while you're just learning how to shave with a straight. If you've already had it pro-sharpened and you still get better shaves from other razors, then my opinion is that you should shelve it for awhile or send it to me for permanent testing :)

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

As you go from grind to grind the feel of the razor does change however as long as the razor is shave ready I don't care what kind of beard you have you should be getting a close and comfortable shave no matter the grind. if you don't you need to do more honing. remember that most barbers (many years ago) used hollow grinds and they had to shave everyone who walked into their shop. If the big razor guys were right and you can't get a comfortable shave from a 5/8s hollow grind if you have a tough beard how did the barbers of yesteryears do it?

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I was about to point out something that I have finally come to a conclusion about, then I saw that gugi already noted it: Just because barbers could give anyone a shave with a sharp full hollow doesn't mean that it was a great shave or even a good shave. People would have just taken what they could get if they needed a shave from a barber.

Today on SRP there are dozens of members who claim to get great comfortable smooth and clean shaves on a regular basis and many who do use hollow ground razors. I am happy for them! It hasn't worked for me though. I can shave with a hollow, but I have to sacrifice closeness or comfort. I don't think I have the luxury of getting both with a hollow grind razor. I've tried stainless steel hollows, big hollows, small hollows, heavy hollows, and extra hollows. None of them give me as close and comfortable shave as my wapienica (quarter hollow) does. None of them match my little narrow wedge razor. I have some larger heavy big wedges that are comfortable, and they don't give me as close a shave as my other razors, but they're always comfortable. Is it my technique? I'll admit the possibility and even invite anyone who gets a close, comfortable shave from a hollow to spend a day and a night in my home and show me how it's done on my face. I'd love to get a great shave from a hollow just to show myself that I don't know as much as I think I do :)

Bigger is better? I've not noticed any comfort difference between big razors and small razors either by length or width or weight. Some people say that is a big factor for them, so I think everyone is probably different to a degree in that regard. I do seem to get closer shaves with smaller razors, but I think that is a function of a smaller razor accommodating my technique rather than the razor actually reacting more favorably with my hair based on the razor's size alone.

bigspendur let me send you a list of hollows that I still have laying around and let me know if you're willing to sharpen one up for me the way you say it needs to be. I am intent to get a good shave from one if it is at all possible:tu I don't think my hair grows very densely on my face, but it could be that something about the hair itself and my skin doesn't respond as well to the geometry of a hollow razor on my face as it does to a wedge razor.

Don't get me wrong though, I can shave with a hollow ground razor and look just fine for work. But as soon as I get to work I start rubbing my chin stubble wondering why I didn't shave with a wedge instead

On the subject of practice I have been using a straight exclusively for almost a year now and consider myself pretty accomplished, I do a 2 pass shave every day and rarely get nicks or cuts and have had no irritation for many many months. I just feel that the TI is not as comfortable as all my other razors, I still get a fine shave from it but it just feels harsher on my skin than all my other razors. What I was looking for was not advice on soap, skin prep, aftershaves or other such but a valid reason why a TI might be different ie. different steels, grinds etc. The guy who hones my razors has honed all of them yet the TI still feels different, I certainly get more comfortable shaves from older razors. Would a very light stropping pressure be better for a full hollow grind? Incidentally, the guy who sharpens my razors said I really should try a Wapi.

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Originally Posted by Barbelus maximus

Would a very light stropping pressure be better for a full hollow grind? Incidentally, the guy who sharpens my razors said I really should try a Wapi.

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I haven't noticed any difference myself on my Tony Miller latigo strap in shaving comfort whether I strap with light or heavy pressure. That's a curious question though, I wonder if it would make enough of a difference for me to even notice. For what it's worth, my wapi gets stronger draw on my strap than my thicker wedges do, but not nearly as much draw as a hollow.

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Originally Posted by Barbelus maximus

Thanks for all the answers. I don't do honing!!!!!!!! I hadn't considered a stropping problem. To be honest it pretty well looks like the TI will be retired as I really do just want to shave and be on my way.

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I felt the same way until I got into it. Now it is equally enjoyable for me as shaving. Try it you'll like it. :tu

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Originally Posted by Barbelus maximus

On the subject of practice I have been using a straight exclusively for almost a year now and consider myself pretty accomplished, I do a 2 pass shave every day and rarely get nicks or cuts and have had no irritation for many many months. I just feel that the TI is not as comfortable as all my other razors, I still get a fine shave from it but it just feels harsher on my skin than all my other razors. What I was looking for was not advice on soap, skin prep, aftershaves or other such but a valid reason why a TI might be different ie. different steels, grinds etc. The guy who hones my razors has honed all of them yet the TI still feels different, I certainly get more comfortable shaves from older razors. Would a very light stropping pressure be better for a full hollow grind? Incidentally, the guy who sharpens my razors said I really should try a Wapi.

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PM me. I'll trade you two brand new honed Wapis for your TI! I've always been tempted by the beauty of those TI's, but the fact that they are full hollows and 5/8's has kept me from running up my credit bill in that regards.

Actually, what you should get is a 1/4 grind LeGreot $175 delivered. Awesome, brand spanking new, heavy grind razor. Thumbnotched, feels great in your hand, and even better on your face!

[QUOTE=Barbelus maximus;238416] I just feel that the TI is not as comfortable as all my other razors, I still get a fine shave from it but it just feels harsher on my skin than all my other razors. What I was looking for was not advice on soap, skin prep, aftershaves or other such but a valid reason why a TI might be different ie. different steels, grinds etc.

There's a clue - It shaves fine but is harsh on the skin. :hmmm:

Can happen with freshly honed razors. Maybe more likely with hollows. Too much pressure and /or wrong angle or combination of these.
If it's freshly honed it will settle after a few shaves and some stropping. If it's the other two you have to adjust your technique

Stiff grinds are more forgiving when it comes to pressure and angle. IMHO

I've got some hollows that need a very light touch and the right angle or I start scraping skin off as well as hair leaving me a bit raw :eek:

Hope this helps but if none of this sounds right - just ignore me :D

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Originally Posted by Barbelus maximus

On the subject of practice I have been using a straight exclusively for almost a year now and consider myself pretty accomplished, I do a 2 pass shave every day and rarely get nicks or cuts and have had no irritation for many many months. I just feel that the TI is not as comfortable as all my other razors, I still get a fine shave from it but it just feels harsher on my skin than all my other razors. What I was looking for was not advice on soap, skin prep, aftershaves or other such but a valid reason why a TI might be different ie. different steels, grinds etc. The guy who hones my razors has honed all of them yet the TI still feels different, I certainly get more comfortable shaves from older razors. Would a very light stropping pressure be better for a full hollow grind? Incidentally, the guy who sharpens my razors said I really should try a Wapi.

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It may very well be that you have gotten one of the new TIs with the extra hard "super steel" they recently switched to. If this is the case, you are not alone in your opinion that they feel harsh.

The solution I have found for these extra hard steels is stropping on newspaper.
I know it doesn't sound like much, but it is effective. The ultra fine carbon smoothes out the teeth in even the harshest razors.

Before you give up on your TI, try stropping on newspaper. It may take 200 passes to get it feeling as soft and smooth as you want, but the end result is well worth it.

Oh, and P.S. Someone offered 2 shave ready Wapis, I'll match that offer, and raise you 3 more... 5 shave ready SFK stamped Wapis for your TI. If you don't like them, you should be able to sell them for $40 each, and recoup more of your hard earned cash. Although I still think you would be better off with a properly tuned TI.:shrug:
And I'm not familliar with the Guillochage so hopefully I'm not offending you with the offer...

Thanks for all the suggestions guys. On the subject of honing, I tried it for a while and never enjoyed it so I sold the beautiful double sided coticule but still have the Norton combo stone, now the only sharpening I do is touch ups with a pasted paddle. This morning I shaved with my Livi regrind 6/8 and had a fine shave as usual. As the TI is 6/8 as well I am beginning to think that the metal may be the issue, I can certainly feel the difference between different steels on my face. I have a Wapi on the way it's just a shame that they are so darn ugly. I really don't want to give up on the TI, I'll try the newspaper trick.

Gentlemen, I give you....................The Tony Miller Pasted Paddle. The TI has been bugging me all day. This mornings shave with a Livi was nothing special, so I got home from work and thought to myself, to heck with this so I picked up the paddle and gave it 20 hard laps on the 1.0 diamond followed by 20 laps on the 0.5 diamond followed by 60 firm laps on the Latigo side of the strop, did my usual prep, lathered up an extra creamy batch of Castle Forbes Lime and set to. Now , I wouldn't say it was smooth as silk but by gum it was close, after 2 passes I left it alone as I don't shave twice in a day as a rule but with 2 WTG passes I have a very fine shave indeed. I have drawn the conclusion that the TI is indeed a fine razor, of that I was always sure, but for me I have to take it to that extra level with the diamond paste. I still intend to buy a Le Grelot 1/4 (rude not to) but the TI will stay........for now. Many thanks for all the input, I havn't visited the site for a while, since the huge glitch which reduced my posts to 0 actually and I kind of stagnated, but it's good to be back.

Way to go. :y

We hollow-philes salute you. :tu

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Originally Posted by hoglahoo

I haven't noticed any difference myself on my Tony Miller latigo strap in shaving comfort whether I strap with light or heavy pressure. That's a curious question though, I wonder if it would make enough of a difference for me to even notice. For what it's worth, my wapi gets stronger draw on my strap than my thicker wedges do, but not nearly as much draw as a hollow.

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I was just wondering reading again your post, if you was making any test on your TI.....:thinking:

Well, it must be clear that once you start to polish a blade (8'000 up), you must not touch your edge with your fingers anymore (TPT, TNT) but just go through the HHT and the shaving test....

For hollow blades, paddles are better in theory.... (I am not using strop nor paddle anymore...:w)

BBS yours,:tu

Valentin

I have had lots of trouble with my TI silverwing until I started giving it more laps on the linen. Even after the Nakayama 80 laps on Tony's genuine linen improves the edge a lot!

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Originally Posted by Karakoup1

I was just wondering reading again your post, if you was making any test on your TI.....:thinking:

Well, it must be clear that once you start to polish a blade (8'000 up), you must not touch your edge with your fingers anymore (TPT, TNT) but just go through the HHT and the shaving test....

For hollow blades, paddles are better in theory.... (I am not using strop nor paddle anymore...:w)

BBS yours,:tu

Valentin

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I was talking about strap draw. I don't test on my thumb beyond the 1k grits

BBS mine,