ANGLE!

OK, a reminder for newbies, and for folks who may have been doing this for a while (like me...:rolleyes:).

Keep the razor at a very shallow angle to your face while shaving. Like really almost flat against your face!

I just had a fantastic shave. I always get a BBS shave, long lasting, very nice, blah, blah...but when it comes time for the alum it more often then not feels like 20,000 volts running across my face!:cry:

So, tonight, as I was shaving and musing on the various things I've read on the forums (am I the only one who does this???:confused:), I thought to myself, "OK, this time, when I go ATG I'm going to keep the razor reeeal flat against my face..." (I usually go WTG, ATG, then 3rd pass cleanup also ATG).

Violla! The alum slid across my face smooth and easy....a slight tingle here and there, but no zaps of alum vengence!

I've been screwing around with trying different soaps, pre-shave oil, no pre shave oil, this that, and the other thing to get a more comfy shave (as far as the alum goes anyhow...), but the answer was there all along----just keep the razor low, and go!

I beg to differ slightly. When Bart put this outstanding post into the Wiki, I gave the cutting angles suggested therein a try. And, lo! it has been working wonders: Advanced shaving techniques for the straight razor - Straight Razor Place Wiki. To wit, an WTG pass at a shallow angle will simply cause my blades to remove the lather, rather than the whiskers.

Different strokes for different folks . Peoples beards are different , what works well for one may not work for another . I shave with a low angle , which works well for me . My advice for newbs is to start low , and work up to the angle that works best for you . Different areas of your beard my also require slight variations in your angle of attack . Closeness with comfort is what we want to achive . Each individual has to find the way that works for them .

I actually have just discovered this too. I know about it from past posts, but I just couldn't get the blade to cut through the hair without pulling. So I just used a more aggressive angle, and it worked. A few days ago I stropped more than usual (40/90) and I was doing ATG passes on my neck and chin without any resistance. Like a knife cutting through butter. I then did a ATG touch up with olive oil and no lather (!) and the blade glided even easier.

+1 for low angle ATG. It really helps. I think stropping is key if it doesn't work well for anyone.

Some parts of my face require different angles, some steeper than others, but I am mainly referring to ATG on my neck and chin.

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Originally Posted by BeBerlin

I beg to differ slightly. When Bart put this outstanding post into the Wiki, I gave the cutting angles suggested therein a try. And, lo! it has been working wonders: Advanced shaving techniques for the straight razor - Straight Razor Place Wiki. To wit, an WTG pass at a shallow angle will simply cause my blades to remove the lather, rather than the whiskers.

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Yes, I agree, WTG you can go a fair bit steeper without ill effects. ATG is a different story, especially if you have whiskers that like to lie particularly flat against the face...

I have to agree with BeBerlin. :D
But there's also a correlation with the sharpness of the razor.
We sharpen a razor, laying flat on the hones. So theoretically, it should cut the whiskers in the same fashion. The only reason why we can (and should) lift it to an angle, is because it is not infinitely sharp.
The sharper the razor, the shallower we should shave with it. All the more ATG, when the direction of the whiskers actually guides the razor into the skin, as opposed to WTG, where this does not happen.

I think it's safe to assume that Seraphim uses extremely sharp razors, reading his lapping film methods and looking at his magnified edges. Hence the need for almost no angle ATG.

Bart.

I remembered this post when I shaved with a newly honed medium hollow Sheffield this morning, and the shallow ATG angle worked great.

Yesterday, I did it with a newly honed wedge going ear to chin, and the side of the blade stuck to my skin and left me with a gash on my jaw. :cen

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Originally Posted by RayG

I remembered this post when I shaved with a newly honed medium hollow Sheffield this morning, and the shallow ATG angle worked great.

Yesterday, I did it with a newly honed wedge going ear to chin, and the side of the blade stuck to my skin and left me with a gash on my jaw. :cen

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I had one case of "face suck", but it was on the last pass, so no damage occured. I was using the 1/4 grind LeGrelot.
Actually, it was a post (here, or at SMF, or some forum or other) that talked about a newbie having the razor sticking to his face that got him to ask the question about the angle to use. And that got me thinking about pushing the envelope for shallow angle without getting face suck. I realized that particularly under my chin I had been using way too steep of an angle, as I was able to lower it quite a bit from my normal.

I'm going to have to revisit my full hollows to see how this technique works with them.

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Originally Posted by Seraphim

I had one case of "face suck", but it was on the last pass, so no damage occured. I was using the 1/4 grind LeGrelot.
Actually, it was a post (here, or at SMF, or some forum or other) that talked about a newbie having the razor sticking to his face that got him to ask the question about the angle to use. And that got me thinking about pushing the envelope for shallow angle without getting face suck. I realized that particularly under my chin I had been using way too steep of an angle, as I was able to lower it quite a bit from my normal.

I'm going to have to revisit my full hollows to see how this technique works with them.

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I think that was SMF...

Anyway, THANK YOU for this thread. This reminder, plus a little touch up on a barber hone, gave me my best straight shave yet. Awesome!

Let's just post that fantastic pic right here in the thread:

http://straightrazorpalace.com/srpwi...ing_angles.jpg

That's some durn fine graphic work!! That pic, combined with the blade sticking to the face post from the other forum combined into a shave improvement epiphany for me!


And the next part of your excellent Wiki article is somthing that I'll be trying out next shave:
http://straightrazorpalace.com/srpwi...nimated%29.gif

I have been pondering this issue. I skin stretch from the top when going WTG, but stretch from below when going ATG. My thinking was that it perhaps helped keep the skin more taut, by stretching opposite to the direction of blade motion...but your excellent graphic shows that what I'm doing may very well be making my flat lying whiskers lie even flatter! I hadn't taken that into full account.....excellent! New stuff to try!!!!

After several years of straight razor shaving I often think I have learned the best angles and techniques, but I still keep finding ways to do it better, after reading various tips, and sometimes on my own.:nj

Gave it a whirl tonight with a Wusthof full holow. The full hollow you can definitely lay right down without face suck. But I still get a smoother shave out of my wedgies. I have to say that the full hollow did give me a very close shave though! Alum sting was lower than usual, but definitely had much more bite than my previous shave with the LeGrelot.

That picture is a great guide to angles, and shows just what is going on.

I find that the alum bites most in the areas where I can't get the ATG angle right - under my chin and each side of my jaw.

Looking at Bart's diagrams (repeated four posts up from here) they illustrate something interesting. With the blade angle assuming the three positions shown (30 deg, 15 deg, and 5 deg) only the 30 degree angle would actually let the edge touch a flat resilient surface. For the other two, the bevel corner would rest on the surface and the cutting edge is suspended slightly above the surface. That would seem to define two important regimes; one where the cutting edge is sliding in direct contact with the surface, and one where the bevel is making the primary contact while the edge is lifted slightly.

(Edited to say this was wrong as desribed below. Thanks for the correction.)

I usually take the winter off from shaving. It has been kind of a tradition for me. I have started shaving again on the first day of spring every year for the last 30. My first 1-2 weeks of shaving are an adventure. I liken this to our northern roads in spring with pot holes, frost heaves and road debris that has accumulated. I can anticipate some mishaps. It takes a while for me to re tune to the correct angle and pressure as well as figure out where this years pot holes are.

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Originally Posted by matt321

Looking at Bart's diagrams (repeated four posts up from here) they illustrate something interesting. With the blade angle assuming the three positions shown (30 deg, 15 deg, and 5 deg) only the 30 degree angle would actually let the edge touch a flat resilient surface. For the other two, the bevel corner would rest on the surface and the cutting edge is suspended slightly above the surface.

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If the graphic implies this then it is in error. If you lay the spine flat on your face then the bevel will also lay flat on your skin - after all it does this on the hone and strop! If you're shaving around a convex surface like your cheeks or chin then the edge of the bevel will touch the skin first, but the skin is flexible and compressible enough that this isn't an issue.

The suction effect with wedges and low angles is one reason I don't use wedges anymore. With low angles I get suction, and with high angles I get plain old razor burn unless it's fairly dull. Wedges leave my face feeling like I've shaved with a Fusion, which is to say insanely BBS and unable to shave again for 2-3 days.

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Originally Posted by matt321

Looking at Bart's diagrams (repeated four posts up from here) they illustrate something interesting. With the blade angle assuming the three positions shown (30 deg, 15 deg, and 5 deg) only the 30 degree angle would actually let the edge touch a flat resilient surface. For the other two, the bevel corner would rest on the surface and the cutting edge is suspended slightly above the surface. That would seem to define two important regimes; one where the cutting edge is sliding in direct contact with the surface, and one where the bevel is making the primary contact while the edge is lifted slightly.

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I'm afraid this is incorrect, sir. A razor is honed while it rests flat on the hone. As a result, even if the razor is used flat on the face, the very edge will still be in contact with the skin, unless you were shaving a very bulbous part of the face.

The given angles in my drawing don't refer to the bevel angle, but to the imaginary middle line of the razor. I believe it is the same reference as generally used in old barbers manuals and by the advisory posts in the newbie section of SRP.

Bart.

Edit: I see now that Mister Parker already addressed this, slightly ahead of me

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Originally Posted by mparker762

The suction effect with wedges and low angles is one reason I don't use wedges anymore. With low angles I get suction, and with high angles I get plain old razor burn unless it's fairly dull. Wedges leave my face feeling like I've shaved with a Fusion, which is to say insanely BBS and unable to shave again for 2-3 days.

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I have not yet experienced this "suction effect". I 've seen it mentioned a couple of times now, without actually having an idea what it is. Could you be bothered to elaborate a bit about it? I'm certainly not searching a debate, only interested in learning something new.

Bart.

You ever get that suction effect when you're honing? When the edge starts getting really polished and the edge is sharp? Same thing, only it's your face instead of a hone. There's enough residual lather on your face that it forms a seal against the razor, so as the razor moves forward the vacuum makes your skin stick to the razor before separating. If you're shaving slowly then it's probably not as much of an issue since the seal has longer to break. If the razor isn't too sharp then the suction is manageable, you just get a very close shave. But if it's really sharp and you shave with a flicking motion then you get a lot of suctino, a really close shave and a bad case of razor burn. This isn't really an issue with full hollows because the hollow ground blade arches away from your face and breaks the seal very quickly, but on a big wedge you could have nearly three inches of skin sticking to the razor.

After shaving with a 7/8 for the first time after having this angle epiphany, I can now see another reason why the big blades are so great to use. It is easy to maintain a very low angle with a big chopper than it is with a tiny 4/8. It is for me, anyhow....:shrug:

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Originally Posted by mparker762

You ever get that suction effect when you're honing? When the edge starts getting really polished and the edge is sharp? Same thing, only it's your face instead of a hone. There's enough residual lather on your face that it forms a seal against the razor, so as the razor moves forward the vacuum makes your skin stick to the razor before separating. If you're shaving slowly then it's probably not as much of an issue since the seal has longer to break. If the razor isn't too sharp then the suction is manageable, you just get a very close shave. But if it's really sharp and you shave with a flicking motion then you get a lot of suctino, a really close shave and a bad case of razor burn. This isn't really an issue with full hollows because the hollow ground blade arches away from your face and breaks the seal very quickly, but on a big wedge you could have nearly three inches of skin sticking to the razor.

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I see how that could be a problem. I have not yet experienced it.
I'm always doing my ATG-pass on a thin, translucent layer of lathery water. Maybe that prevents it from happening?

Thanks for explaining,

Bart.

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Originally Posted by Seraphim

After shaving with a 7/8 for the first time after having this angle epiphany, I can now see another reason why the big blades are so great to use. It is easy to maintain a very low angle with a big chopper than it is with a tiny 4/8. It is for me, anyhow....:shrug:

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It is the exact opposite for me. I find that I can naturally maintain a flatter angle with a smaller width razor particularly around the chin. The larger razors although fun to shave with have a tendency to flatten out and I have to be careful with them.

Lynn

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Originally Posted by Lynn

It is the exact opposite for me. I find that I can naturally maintain a flatter angle with a smaller width razor particularly around the chin. The larger razors although fun to shave with have a tendency to flatten out and I have to be careful with them.

Lynn

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To each his own! Straight shaving is too cool!:nj

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Originally Posted by BeBerlin

I beg to differ slightly. When Bart put this outstanding post into the Wiki, I gave the cutting angles suggested therein a try. And, lo! it has been working wonders: Advanced shaving techniques for the straight razor - Straight Razor Place Wiki. To wit, an WTG pass at a shallow angle will simply cause my blades to remove the lather, rather than the whiskers.

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The Advanced shaving techniques... Wiki page really turned on the light bulb for me. Newbies take note when your hassling with angles.
Dannyr

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Originally Posted by Bart

I see how that could be a problem. I have not yet experienced it.
I'm always doing my ATG-pass on a thin, translucent layer of lathery water. Maybe that prevents it from happening?

Thanks for explaining,

Bart.

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I find that my blade sticks the worst when my lather is a little dry and after my skin is somewhat smooth/hairless (after/during atg). That is when my skin is the 'stickiest'. It is rather evident if I go over an area where there is no lather, especially if that part of my face conforms to the grind of the razor. I think the presence of hair helps to relieve the suction somewhat as well.

Shaving with the biggest razor I have so far - 7/8 has brought this 'suction' effect about. it's a 1/4 hollow/wedge so if there is too much thick, creamy lather and I go ATG then the blade practically glues itself to my skin. After I've completed my WTG pass(es) I put on a layer of lather, but not too thick, and then re-strop the blade for about 40 strokes. I find this gives the lather enough time to thin out and then there's no/little suction when I go ATG.

I STILL have THAT spot on my neck where I just can't get it as close or smooth as I can on just about every other part of my face... grrrr...