Running into bloody problems with 3rd pass ATG

Hello All,

I'm about four weeks into my great adventure of straight razor shaving. I have a couple of razors, but the one I've been shaving with is a nice vintage carbon steel 6/8 that I've honed finely on a Norton wetstone. It's very sharp to the 'thumbnail' test.

I've gotten to the point where I can shave my whole face with the grain without any cuts or nicks. I can usually do a seocnd pass cross-grain without problems.

I have a really thick black beard, however, and I still look shadowy and feel scratchy after all of that. I've now been venturing into a third pass against the grain. The results are pretty amazing - for the first time, my shave on my cheeks feels smoother than it ever has with a Fusion ATG shave.

So, the cheeks are easy, but the line around my jaw is really hard to do ATG. I just can't figure out a comfortable way to hold the razor to make it work. I've found that a technique that works for me in general is to get the razor moving in the direction of the shave before making contact with the skin - thus avoiding the 'first contact' cut. This is much harder when moving around the chin line ATG. The last two shaves, I've ended up putting nasty cuts on my left cheek (I'm right handed) trying to get the lower part of my jaw moving S-N. I look a bit like I've been in a kinfe fight on that side.

I think it's mostly that I can't figure out a great way to grip the razor to go ATG on my non-dominant side. I'm hesitant about using my left hand to do such a delicate job, and it's awkward to try to come 'under' with my right hand.

Any suggestions?

Thanks,

Matthew

Welcome to SRP Matthew. I also shave with my right hand. When I go south to north on my second pass (I only do two passes) I have the blade and scales in a straight line. IOW, all the way open and not bent. Kind of like a Japanese style razor if you know what I mean. If you haven't checked it out the SRP Wiki here has shaving and honing tutorials that would be of great benefit for you to take a look at. There are videos here as well. Read my sig line at the bottom. It has worked for me to avoid nicks and cuts 99% of the time. :gl:

Matt, I was having trouble trying to shave with one hand so I decided early on I was going to learn to shave my left side with left hand and right side with right hand. It took me a minute and it was slow but it really wasnt that hard to learn. Now I cannot shave with just my right hand anymore. I was 4 weeks into straight shaving before I decided to make the transition , it really helped me.

Matt also as Jimmy suggested take the advise of his sig line, it was one of the first sigs I read when I joined this forum a few months ago and I have still yet to even nick myself.

Have you tried stretching the skin sufficiently so you don't actually shave the hair that normally sits on the jawline on the jawline?

I would say go ahead and use the non-dominant hand. It's scary the first time you do it because it feels strange, but you will see the benefits. Myself, I had to use my left hand to go ATG on my right cheek. I just couldn't physically do it with my right. Plus, when I started using the left hand to do the left cheek for the other two passes, it made them less awkward, too.

Also, the advice about a light grip and light pressure is priceless. My left hand naturally applies a lighter pressure, and that's a big help.

And after following the advice about moving the jawline skin off the jawline, my shave improved there.

I'd say these guys have definitely given good advice, and following it will definitely improve your shave, too.

Hey everyone,

Thanks a ton for all of the advice. I haven't been able to bring myself to shave again since the bloodbath the other day, but I'll try to keep all of this in mind and get back to you.

Great advise by all. As Greg said while shaving your cheeks pull the skin taught upward then when shaving your neck pull the skin downward and you'll get that jawline on both passes and it will be BBS.

Is your razor pulling when you go ATG on your neck, even though the blade is flat on your skin including the spine? If so this can be a honing or stropping issue.

It was a stropping issue for me when I first started. Once I learned to strop the razor didn't pull atg.

My advice: Don't do ATG, it is not necessary - see my comments under the 'stropping before atg thread'.

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Originally Posted by mstecker

I've honed finely on a Norton wetstone. It's very sharp to the 'thumbnail' test.

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Hi and welcome.

Which Norton wetstone(s) are you using? It's generally considered OK to do the thumbnail test after using a 4K hone, but after you've gone to 8K the TNT becomes more likely to reduce sharpness.

If you have steady hands you could learn to do the thumbpad test and use it after the 8K stage.

Do you have a strop? 60 laps or so can make the shave go a lot easier.

I also got tired of the nicks and cuts from going ATG, so I just stopped trying. I also watched Jockeys videos on youtube and decided to try copying his technique as much as possible WTG. My shaves have become enjoyable again. My results from one pass have improved alot. And...no cuts or irratation. It's not as close of a shave as ATG. And, I have to shave everyday now. But I totally look forward to it each morning. There's alot to learn about WTG before jumping into ATG.
Watch the Jockeys video. "short lite strokes" "sounds like buttering toast". Helped me alot.

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Originally Posted by fccexpert

My advice: Don't do ATG, it is not necessary - see my comments under the 'stropping before atg thread'.

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it might not be necessary for you, but it's a pretty simple way to get really good results.

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Originally Posted by fccexpert

I never do ATG, and advise the same to others; 1) it is not necessary, you can get a good shave without it, in fact you can get a good shave once over if you know what you are doing 2) ATG is likely to cause major irritation and increases the risk of ingrown hairs substancially 3) most barbers manuals advise against ATG

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Originally Posted by fccexpert

My advice: Don't do ATG, it is not necessary - see my comments under the 'stropping before atg thread'.

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While you may have no need for an ATG-pass shaving your beard smooth, many of us have beards that cannot be shaved close without performing an ATG pass. Your statement about getting "a good shave once over if you know what you are doing" is something that I believe is only within range of gents with an extremely easy beard.
There are many gents on this forum performing ATG-passes without any irritation or ingrown hairs, who have no other chance of getting a smooth shave without it. I am in that case, and all other straight shaving fellows I've had the honor of meeting so far, were in that case also.

All barber manuals I know of teach ATG-strokes as well. They usually issue a warning against what they refer to as "giving a close shave", especially for gentlemen with tender skin.
Here's a quote from one of the barbering textbooks:
"The second time over serves to remove any rough or unshaven spots. Close shaving is the practice of shaving the beard against the grain of the hair during the second time over. This practice is undesirable because it irritates the skin and may lead to infection or ingrown hairs. For this reason, the barber-stylist should be cautious when givinga close shave.
However, should the client request it, first remove all traces of lather (...) [here follows a description how to perform the ATG-pass]

Once Over Shave
The once over shave takes less time for a complete and even shave. [note how the manual does not use the words "close shave".] For a once over shave, give a few more strokes across the grain when completing each shaving movement. This will assure a complete and even shave with a single lathering."

Bottom line: it seems to come down to the desire of having a close shave, or not. I personally desire a close shave.


Mstecker,

If your beard needs an ATG-pass for a smooth result, may I suggest that you try doing it immediately after the WTG-pass. There are only so many strokes you can do without irritation, and on my face, I rather trade the strokes of an XTG-pass for a bit of extra latitude on the ATG-pass.
I would also like to bring the following drawing under your attention, in case you hadn't seen it yet.
http://straightrazorpalace.com/srpwi...ing_angles.jpg

The full article is here:
Advanced shaving techniques for the straight razor - Straight Razor Place Wiki

Best regards,
Bart.

I agree ATG is needed to get a BBS shave. Keep in mind Mstecker only has 4 weeks of experience thus I'd expect his technique isn't quite mature nor his razor quite keen. That is why I suggested avoiding the pain of ATG and focus on the basics, WTG. He'll likely be better for it in the long run.

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Originally Posted by Arg

I agree ATG is needed to get a BBS shave. Keep in mind Mstecker only has 4 weeks of experience thus I'd expect his technique isn't quite mature nor his razor quite keen. That is why I suggested avoiding the pain of ATG and focus on the basics, WTG. He'll likely be better for it in the long run.

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Not true, I get BBS with a once over shave every day.

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Originally Posted by fccexpert

My advice: Don't do ATG, it is not necessary - see my comments under the 'stropping before atg thread'.

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I would have to disagree. You should be able to get a BBS using just a WTG and ATG. I think the XTG is the unnecessary stroke.

YMMV

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Originally Posted by fccexpert

Not true, I get BBS with a once over shave every day.

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Excellent, that doesn't, however, mean ATG is not necessary for the rest of us!

I don't use XTG.

I have been shaving since I was thirteen and there is no way I would ever be able to get a good shave without doing an ATG pass, period. I would still look like I have five o clock shadow no matter what I'd shave with. Even my 1926 Gillette NEW open comb with feathers wouldn't give me BBS with one pass especially without an ATG pass. I have never gotten an ingrown hair or razor burn from ATG passes.

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Originally Posted by Disburden

I have been shaving since I was thirteen and there is no way I would ever be able to get a good shave without doing an ATG pass, period. I would still look like I have five o clock shadow no matter what I'd shave with. Even my 1926 Gillette NEW open comb with feathers wouldn't give me BBS with one pass especially without an ATG pass. I have never gotten an ingrown hair or razor burn from ATG passes.

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Having the same beard creates a bond I would guess. You have an incoming friend request. :D
Luckily most of us who require ATG passes, usually also manage to get away with one.

Bart.

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Originally Posted by Bart

Having the same beard creates a bond I would guess. You have an incoming friend request. :D
Luckily most of us who require ATG passes, usually also manage to get away with one.

Bart.

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Request approved, of course!

I really can't imagine not doing any ATG pass. Everything before is mere reduction.

My 81 year old father used to get a barber shave on a regular basis in his younger days.He told me of one barber in Liverpool England who gave him the best shaves of his life and he NEVER shaved ATG.:confused: Just WTG XTG and a little touching up.I guess it's the old tradesman and tools argument.:thinking:

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Originally Posted by spinyeel

My 81 year old father used to get a barber shave on a regular basis in his younger days.He told me of one barber in Liverpool England who gave him the best shaves of his life and he NEVER shaved ATG.:confused: Just WTG XTG and a little touching up.I guess it's the old tradesman and tools argument.:thinking:

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I think, like most things that go with straight shaving, it depends on the person's facial hair growth pattern.

Reading this thread makes me feel so much better!

I have a sparse but very coarse beard, with all the hairs coming out parallel to the skin; a barber told me it would be a nightmare to shave. He's right. My skin is also pretty baggy - I'll probably look like Walter Mathau in a few years.

Most modern multi-blade razors have almost no effect on my neck unless I go ATG and *scrub*. That leads to those lovelly welling droplets of blood all over my neck . . .

I shave with a straight about 50% of the time. I find that I can get a 'cosmetically' ok shave going with the grain in one pass. A 'kissing' shave is pretty hard, tho.

One thing I struggle with is getting a hot lather. If I use a multi-blade razor I put a hot cloth on my face for 30s, then slap some shave oil on. My face is still warm and relaxed while I shave.

If I go for a brush and lather, I end up with cold lather on my face, which doesn't produce good results. What is the secret to warm/hot lather, or isn't it possible?

I have a Moss type scuttle and it is the bomb for warm lather through out the shave.

Have fun,

Lynn

I guess I'm one of those guys who are lucky enough to get a neat, clean shave with only WTG and XTG, except for some spots. But I can't go ATG because my skin is too tender for it. I tried but had no success... perhaps my razor isn't sharp enough or my technique is still off. But if I can get a clean shave without it, why bother? I did manage to get full BBS with my DE... but the results were a bit painfull - I had the first ingrown hair in years...

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Originally Posted by Lynn

I have a Moss type scuttle and it is the bomb for warm lather through out the shave.

Have fun,

Lynn

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'scuse me for my ignorance, but what is a scuttle and how do you use one?

Tried shaving in the bath, no mirror. Damn it, still haven't learned not to move my head while shaving ::-)

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Originally Posted by mrcharly

'scuse me for my ignorance, but what is a scuttle and how do you use one?

Tried shaving in the bath, no mirror. Damn it, still haven't learned not to move my head while shaving ::-)

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A scuttle is a kind of shaving mug with the following main differences from the first: is has a container for hot water underneath another bowl that holds the soap or is empty so you can lather in it. If you google "scuttle" you'll find some images, for sure. But, despite the fact that a real scuttle is probably better, you can keep the lather warm the way I - and a lot of folks here - do: find 2 bowls that fit into eachother, provided that one is bigger and leaves some empty space between them. Fill the bigger one with hot water, lather in the smaller one and then, after that, put the latter in the first, providing that you are carefull enough not to get water into the lather bowl. That way you have hot water around the lather bowl and the lather remains warm for a bit longer, perhaps enough for the whole shave.

Concerning the shaving in the bath thing... I would say STOP IT! It's bloody hell dangerous! If you drop the straight... imagine the damage it can do to your feet, your legs or even your wedding vegetables!!!! :eek: And you shave without a mirror? That's cool if it's on a dry surface... but in the shower?! You'll nick your head off in no time... :D

Great post/question
I have some of the same questions and concerns. Mrcharly, you have the exact same beard as me.

I have found that in my beard situation, prep is half the battle. I have sparse hair but they are Sequoia Red Wood forest hairs. Hot shower, hot wet towel (2 minutes), then lather (in which I need lots of work), with 2nd hot wet towel 2 minutes, fresh hot lather (during which time I strop). Then I hit the easy strokes first - checks, flat neck. Releather those areas and hit the harder jawline and chin. . . .

Jawline; Pull the skin up like the 1st and 2nd cheek stroke. With loose skin, this should "lift" the skin that normally sits ON the edge to the flat area of the lower cheek. WTG pass here on both sides, re-lather immediately and pass XTG both sides, re-lather and let sit. Hit other areas but do not let the "ledge" get dry. Do the throat or another area. Before the ATG pass, linen strop and then follow with leather strop. Make sure the "ledge" is wet enough, then hit the ATG pass - again, lifting the skin.

You should be good to go. Give it a try.

Good luck,

Alpsman

Well, I only acquired one nick, and that was from being stupid and turning my head rather than moving the blade. Ended up being the smoothest shave I've had in a long time. Still baby-smooth this morning and I'm normally like a porcupine by morning.

I didn't use lather this time, but soaked my face with a hot towel, applied shower gel, then re-soaked.

If you shower prior to shave, try to rub some hair conditioner into the beard and leave it on for minute or two... It softens the hair a lot and it tends to lift hair above the skin... I use it as a basic preparation, regardless of hot towel treatment which I occasionally do...

I also stretch my skin A LOT when doing a ATG pass, even more than for the WTG pass...

:gl:

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Originally Posted by mrcharly

Well, I only acquired one nick, and that was from being stupid and turning my head rather than moving the blade. Ended up being the smoothest shave I've had in a long time. Still baby-smooth this morning and I'm normally like a porcupine by morning.

I didn't use lather this time, but soaked my face with a hot towel, applied shower gel, then re-soaked.

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fair play mate, there shaving mirrorless is one thing, but using shower gel as well :rock:

I would take the advice 'never shave naked' though! Man that would sting.

I have to go ATG to get the BBS shave I always desire. I enjoy the results so much and have done it so much it is always the standard performance I demand of myself when shaving.

If you are starting out with the ATG effort, then start with the easy sections first and expand from there. Lather up nicely and take your time as it may take you multiple sessions to achieve the results you are seeking.

I really liked the posting by a Senior Member on this thread showing blade angels WTG, XTG, and ATG. :bow

Cheers!

Pabster