Smoother Shave with Lower Grit?

Today I experienced something kinda weird in my opinion. Lately my Dovo 5/8 hollow has been feeling less comfortable than is acceptable by my standards. I couldn't figure out why, as I hone it the same way as the rest of my razors and at the same time. I thought back to when it started feeling this way, and all I could come up with is when I switched hones. ABout a two months ago I purchased a Shapton 16000 stone to compiment my Norton 4k/8k. I have a few wedges and a couple of other hollows, and I honed them all on the Norton and the Shapton. I found a noticible improvement on all my razors except my Dovo.
As such I tried a little experiment today, and took my Dovo back to the 8k. Didn't go to the Shapton, just stropped and shaved. To my suprise it felt smoother than when I was shaving of the 16k.
Has anyone else had a razor that seems to shave smoother off a lower grit, or does my Dovo just prefer a different kind of hone than a glass one?

When I was in the early learning process of honing and shaving with straight razors (still learning but later stage) I would pyramid on the Norton 4/8 and then go to a Swaty with water. Shortly after that I got a Shapton pro 15K and went with that instead of the Swaty.

I was getting some tips from Randydance on the phone and told him my routine. He suggested that I stop at the 8K level and test shave. If the razor needed to be tuned up a bit more go back to the 8k until it was shaving satisfactorily.

Only then go up in grit. So I do that with all that I hone now so that I know for sure that when I leave the 8k to move up in grit I've gotten all can at that level. I don't know if this applies to your particular situation with the Dovo but just thought I would mention it.You might find that this time around the Dovo is ready for the 16k and will shave better off of it then the last time around. :shrug:

++1 on what Jimmy says. His simple explanation answers, again, the question that is asked quite often and that is what test is used to know you are ready to move on in the honing process. This is a perfect example of the only test to use and that is shaving with the razor itself. If it doesn't pass that test, it ain't ready. How simple is that? The only difference here is that Jimmy has given us a point to make that test to be sure, right after the 8k process. Thanks for the insight.

Ray

Too add to Jimmy's info.

Yes, I have experienced that. However, it was due to my improper technique than the hones. I was used to a duller razor that required more pressure to get a BBS out of. When I used the sharper razor, the additional pressure made the shave very harsh and I got razor burn.

That was a long time ago. I have never experienced the problem ever again.

8BallAce ~ Another possibility to add.
You say you hone your razors the same way at the same time. Do you allow for the fact that some razors need less honing than others? I 'm just wondering if you haven't overhoned it on the 16k then taken the wire edge off on the 8k hence making it seem "smoother".

:OT Hey Jimmy , You a Buddy Guy fan ? "Stone crazy" :p

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

8BallAce ~ Another possibility to add.
You say you hone your razors the same way at the same time. Do you allow for the fact that some razors need less honing than others? I 'm just wondering if you haven't overhoned it on the 16k then taken the wire edge off on the 8k hence making it seem "smoother".

:OT Hey Jimmy , You a Buddy Guy fan ? "Stone crazy" :p

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Sorry, I guess saying that I hone all my razors the same way is a little missleading. I do hone them all on my Norton 4k/8k, then move to my Shapton. However, I don't take the same amount of time per razor. I use the HHT as a benchmark after each grit before progressing to the next. Although my hollow razors all take roughly the same amount of passes to hone, I don't follow the exact number of passes with each.
However, I never considered that I may have put a wire edge on it before moving to the next grit, and simply caught a barb in the HHT.
As I said, the shave was once again comfortable after the 8k, and so I took jimmy's advice and tried to move up to the 16k tonight. I'll find out the results next shave.

As Leighton mentioned pressure is also a variable to consider. I can't think of many other possibilities but if you still have a problem maybe worth looking at the edge under magnification. Good luck with the shave.

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Originally Posted by 8BallAce

Sorry, . However, I don't take the same amount of time per razor. I use the HHT as a benchmark after each grit before progressing to the next. Although my hollow razors all take roughly the same amount of passes to hone, I don't follow the exact number of passes with each.
However, I never considered that I may have put a wire edge on it before moving to the next grit, and simply caught a barb in the HHT.
As I said, the shave was once again comfortable after the 8k, and so I took jimmy's advice and tried to move up to the 16k tonight. I'll find out the results next shave.

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This is not such a great idea, and here is why, if you're not overhoning already doing this, you are right on the edge of it....
Forget the HHT until after you strop the edge, right before the shave test, and get a test that you feel comfortable with, do the HHT the same way every single time as soon as you figure one out that then gives a good test shave....Just as an example I know that doing an HHT with my hair means nothing, but if right before the test shave I use the Wifey's baby fine hair and it just falls away, I know the shave test will 99 out of 100 go well....
At lower grits before stropping there is just way to much room for error on the HHT....

Also another great test of honing is the ZERO stropping test, try a test shave straight off the hone and see what you think, this can be very, very, humbling, many try this at the 8k stage but try it too after you pass the 16k....

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Originally Posted by Leighton

Too add to Jimmy's info.

Yes, I have experienced that. However, it was due to my improper technique than the hones. I was used to a duller razor that required more pressure to get a BBS out of. When I used the sharper razor, the additional pressure made the shave very harsh and I got razor burn.

That was a long time ago. I have never experienced the problem ever again.

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This statement makes not sense to me whatever. A dull razor will not give a smooth shave no matter how much pressure you put on it. Pressure at all when shaving is a no no.

It has been said for a long time that it is entirely possible to get good shaves off the 8K and many have done so and continue to do so. You can certainly refine an edge from here and many do that as well with the higher grits and or pastes/sprays.

Lynn

As of late, I have been finishing off my trazors on a DMT 3 micron plate (~8k), followed by maybe ten laps on a hanging CromOx strop. I've been loving the shaves!

Previously I'd progress to 0.5 micron (or maybe even further!), and I found the razors did start to feel quite a bit harsh. I backed off to finishing at 1 micron, and that felt better. Now I've backed off to 3um, and it feels quite comfy.

It may depend on face sensitivity, and shaving pressure, so everyone probably needs to find their own "sweet spot".

Hello 8ballace,
let me ask you what kind of Dovo you are having problems with.
I ask because Dovo sells INOX, or stainless razors and those seem to not like the shapton 16k much,
nor any very high (majorly synthetic) finishing stone.
Do you have a chance of checking the edge under a loupe for microchips,
especially after the shave?
Another way to test the razor for an overly sensetive edge
is to try to accomplish the HHT smoothly after the shave.

Besides, I wouldn´t say "the lower grit hone did better"
I would say "the other finishing hone did better".
Both norton 8k and shapton 16k are finishers after all :)

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Originally Posted by Lesslemming

Hello 8ballace,
let me ask you what kind of Dovo you are having problems with.
I ask because Dovo sells INOX, or stainless razors and those seem to not like the shapton 16k much,
nor any very high (majorly synthetic) finishing stone.
Do you have a chance of checking the edge under a loupe for microchips,
especially after the shave?
Another way to test the razor for an overly sensetive edge
is to try to accomplish the HHT smoothly after the shave.

Besides, I wouldn´t say "the lower grit hone did better"
I would say "the other finishing hone did better".
Both norton 8k and shapton 16k are finishers after all :)

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Just out of curiosity, what are your findings on the 16K? I have honed thousands of Dovo Carbon and Inox razors using the Shapton 16K as a finisher or the Naniwa Super 12K and never had a problem. I have both used and not used pastes following these stones as well and as with most final polishing stones, I think I like the way the razor shaves with the pastes/sprays a little better.

Thanks,

Lynn

8ball, are you using any linen work.

You say it started feeling harsh. what was the original cindition when you first switched to 16.... has the razor always been sub-par or did that develop more recently?

Hello Lynn,
I am not talking out of personal experience,
because I did not come across a Dovo Inox yet,
but I had some vintage razors that got a little microchipping from the GS 16k.
Those were not there before (at Superstone 8k level) and dis- and reappeared after repeating the 8k -> 16k process. I think some razors just don´t like the ultrafine finishers.
I had a little chat with some german fellars
who experienced something similar.
The microchipping looked like little "u" formed nicks in the edge
and could be seen in 30-60 magnification.
It could of course very well be my honing...


I agree that GS 16k honed razors do benefit from a little and gentle stropping.
I particularly use 0.09µm Ironoxide round in shape from Kremer-Pigmente* here in germany after fine hones like this.
I dunno if it´s really 0.1µ but it´s defenitely finer than CrOx
or let´s put it this way, the shave is smoother. Nothing near harsh

You have much more experince than I have, can I ask you something?
Would you say nearly every razor is fit for a Naniwa 12k or Shapton 16k (or equal) finish,
if the preperation on the previous hones has been done properly?
Or would you say some steel types/properties just don´t fit the overly fine hones we use?
(or did you referr to dovo only?)

*http://www.kremer-pigmente.de/shopin...iles/48100.pdf
Pigment Pr 101

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Originally Posted by Lesslemming

I had some vintage razors that got a little microchipping from the GS 16k.
Those were not there before (at Superstone 8k level) and dis- and reappeared after repeating the 8k -> 16k process. I think some razors just don´t like the ultrafine finishers.

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Could it be over honing ? With the exception with a few when bevel setting on a 1200 DMT I haven't noticed that phenomenon with either HC or SS razors.

Nor have I experienced this with the Dovo #41 SS
razors I have honed on the Shapton 16k.

- Scott

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lesslemming

Hello Lynn,

You have much more experince than I have, can I ask you something?
Would you say nearly every razor is fit for a Naniwa 12k or Shapton 16k (or equal) finish,
if the preperation on the previous hones has been done properly?
Or would you say some steel types/properties just don´t fit the overly fine hones we use?
(or did you referr to dovo only?)

*http://www.kremer-pigmente.de/shopin...iles/48100.pdf
Pigment Pr 101

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All I can tell you on this is that I hone razors every day for people from ebay specials to edge restorations to razors in decent shape needing to be brought back to shaving excellence and it is always very important to make sure the bevel is set correctly before you move up in your progression. Can a razor micro chip? Absolutely, but I do not find that this is something that happens on every razor. I can and does happen occasionally and there are a ton of reasons. When it does happen, I normally just drop back to the previous stone and go from there. I have found that both the Naniwa and Shaptons are very consistent stones when it comes to results. Actually so is a Coticule, Escher and the Japanese natural stones I have used to date. It really boils down to preference. Once you hone even one razor for yourself and have repeatable results you typically develop those preferences. Preferences can change though as you try more stones and other media.

Lynn

Great Thread !

I test shave off of the 8k sans stropping and usually go to the 12k if I have time. I dont mind a full shave fresh off of the 8k norton without stropping. I figure by the time the edge needs a refresher, I'll end up on a high grit stone anyways. That way, the edge seems to get smoother and smoother ... like an optical illusion or something.

I'm on board with the Jimmy, gssixgun, Lynn crew. To me, their advice summated in this thread is solid and concise.

I've either found it myself or listened to their advice stated in this thread.

Either way, it is fundamentally sound.

Here is one fact that always come back to stare you down when honing....

You can blame the razor, you can blame the hone, you can blame the previous owner of the razor, there are tons of things you can blame, but given sound steel (carbon, Dami, or SS) ultimately you have to blame yourself....

I find it quite humorous that the better you get at honing/shaving the more you blame yourself, and the less you blame the equipment...


Bad razors are bad razors of course....but the better you get the less there seem to be

Glen,

My defensive position always has been, "It's a good craftsman indeed who knows when to blame the tools." :nj

:roflmao

Well first of all, thanks to everyone for all the responses and knowledge. Particularily Jimmy and Glen. I think that Jimmy probably was right in that the razor was simply not ready to move up to the 16k.
After yesterday's shave off the 8k I went back to the hones ( knowing that I could get a smooth shave off the 8k - thus being ready to move to the next grit). I did a few laps on my Shapton, stroped and waited for my hair to grow. The shave today was back to perfectly comfortable.
Also to any newbies who happen to be reading this thread. I would follow Glen's advice and not use the HHT at lower grits. From now on it's shave testing for me. Thanks again guys.

thank you all for your mind opening explainations.
I think I got cought in this "every steel needs it´s own hone" thing, too much.
I will think about that and keep it in mind
and watch myself more closely when honing my next razor.

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Originally Posted by Lesslemming

thank you all for your mind opening explainations.
I think I got cought in this "every steel needs it´s own hone" thing, too much.
I will think about that and keep it in mind
and watch myself more closely when honing my next razor.

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Every razor has its hone
Just like every night has its dawn
Just like every cowboy sings his sad, sad song
Every razor has its hone

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Originally Posted by Slartibartfast

Every razor has its hone
Just like every night has its dawn
Just like every cowboy sings his sad, sad song
Every razor has its hone

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He got a custom Continental
He got a Eldorado too
He got a .32 gun in his pocket for fun
He got a razor in his shoe

And he's bad (bad) bad (bad) Leroy Brown
The baddest man in the whole damned town
Badder than a-old King Kong
And meaner than a junkyard dog

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

I find it quite humorous that the better you get at honing/shaving the more you blame yourself, and the less you blame the equipment...

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The ole "Adjust the nut at the end of the hone" eh. LOL

So true!

One thing to keep in mind here is that it was not too many years ago where we told people to refresh their razors by a pyramid method of 1 stroke on the 4K Norton followed by 3-5 strokes on the Norton 8K. In some cases, it was just recommended to try 5-10 strokes on the 8K. It is not that this is still not a viable alternative, it's just that we have a few more alternatives these days.

Lynn

Lynn i have to mention this.
Not very many People will come to your level to hone the razor.(i haven't seen any yet)
This is very important ( i think)
Example when you say 5 strokes on particular hone.
what we do our 5 strokes is totally different then your 5 strokes as a result is different.
I think the problem this person having is too many strokes and too much pressure on 16k. it will brake down the edge.

I really don't know why i mention this just thought may help to honers. when they make exact amount strokes and not to get result what they want(similar to your 's) only depends on individual .

Thanks Sham!

Totally understand. The numbers can really be used as guidelines. I still believe less is better......:)

Lynn

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Originally Posted by SR-CMT

The ole "Adjust the nut at the end of the hone" eh. LOL

So true!

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Oh, that is classic! I find that lower grit honing is smoother, but fails to shave very close. The 5 o'clock shadow comes by around 2 pm.

I have often found that microchipping is the result of the edge being allowed to land on the hone, after the flip, under its own weight. The edge "hits" the hone, and chips.

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Originally Posted by Lynn

I still believe less is better......:)

Lynn

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I agree 100%.
there is one But to make less is better :) Will take someone to hone at least 2000 razor's then that person will say Lynn was right. :rofl2: