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I checked the videos section and noticed there aren't any. The whole "shave with one side of the blade" idea is really mind-boggling to me and so I'd love to see this in action. Has anybody produced a video of a Japanese straight (fixed-blade) shave? If not, would anybody be up to the challenge?
Thanks in advance,
Ogie
Very recently, there was a long video posted of a japanese barber shaving a customer with a japanese straight, you might want to have a look at that.
Thanks pete -- I saw that one but I'm really interested in seeing how the same guy would shave himself with one of those things. For example if I'm right-handed, I'd do a wtg stroke down my right cheek with the handle pointing at the mirror, but if I want to do a wtg stroke on the left side, my ear would be in the way. Know what I mean? The mechanics don't make sense to me.
Thanks,
Ogie
Nonsense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oglethorpe
To someone who uses an electric razor, watching someone hold a normal straight and use it would evoke the same response.
Like everything else you have to just use it and learn the ropes and it becomes second nature just like a normal straight. I speak from experience and several others here use Japanese Straights too.
Of course there are many who use both sides to shave but that's another story.
Gentlemen, I will weigh in, hoping that I don't stir up too much of a poo storm.
1. Japanese straights are designed to be used with only 1 side against the face--this is the "flat" side. The curved side, with the kanji, is the outside. Why do I know this? See 2--imagine you are going to shave someone else. Pick up the razor in your right hand (Japan is VERY strongly right handed, and people who try to use their left hands have always been trained out of it, until very recently). Hold it out to shave someone else. What side do you see?
Also, the names of the sides. The flat side is the "ura". It is the back, the down side--very clearly stated. Like the sole of the foot. The kanji side is the "omote", which means "face" (Also "mask"), the side you see.
2. Japanese straights are designed to be used by barbers. They are tools for shaving other people.
3. Japanese barbers don't care a spit about "grain", so Japanese razormakers don't give a spit about grain. North to south or east to west stroke is dictated by ease of stroke, given #1.
What all of this means is that people who use one of these to shave themselves are forging their own path...some people have figured out a good way, but it's up to you to find the best way for yourself. There is no one way to do it.
It also explains why my barber kept a western style folding straight instead of his Japanese style straights when he gave me his collection--they're easier to use!!!
Good luck, and may the Schwartz be with you.
Thanks Jim. This is the most helpful response I've seen and was what I was imagining would be the case. It seems like for the left side of the face I'll have to go against the grain so as to continue using the correct side of the blade.
@ bigspendur - was my line of questioning really "nonsense" worthy? I've never handled a fixed blade razor and before I ever used my first straight razor I had a wealth of information at SRP to reference. It saved me a lot of my own discomfort and blood to read the wiki and ask questions so that I'd be better prepared before I started. Because there isn't any information on this topic, I figured I'd ask some questions. Like you said, it's akin to starting over. And this is how I got started. Maybe once I get a few shaves under my belt (I have a JSR on the way) I'll write an article on the topic.
Hi Jim.
I'm sure you're right but my barber is never standing in front of me. He has access to both sides from either direction of the blade. Just because a razor is "made for service" industry has never made sense.
Somewhere online I read an excerpt from a book, where the author marveled at the Japanese sailors effectiveness with their self shaved razor work. I cannot find the source atm.
Ahhhh...interesting. I got confused from the sharpening translation I did, when they were sharpening the "ura", they had the flat side up. I guess i got it backwards.Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD_SCHOOL
But I still stand firm--the flat side is to the face.
Kevin, I'm not sure what you mean...the barber may have access to all sides of you, but I'm pretty sure you're still in front of him...
Hi Guys;
Jim I was looking at your example 1. reaching out to shave someone; standing behind them or to the side is almost the same as shaving oneself.
I have no source really b u t ; in the western tradition I think it could be argued as well that the original use was not shaving oneself, but was likely done by others. An occidental barber shaving a patron can use; perhaps even need to use both faces of the tool. I'm hoping to show there is nothing unique to shaving another vs. self shaving that would give rise to a more specialized tool.
I have always found; the flat side, the wedge side, the curved side, etc. descriptions to be extremely confusing. As none of these actually fit as I see it.
I began with incomplete information, at that time it seemed the more comfortable shave was with the stamped ura against the face. So that is the way I continued. However, one sidedness is not always easy to do. Using the omote against the face is often equal or better after some practice sharpening and using. (the opposite can be equally true depending on grain and direction)
The sharpening instructions increased my doubts on which face is which. My communication with the guy I purchased Iwasaki from could have been more complete. But at the time it seemed to confirm the ura was on the face, which made sense on why it is the ura and the other omote, regardless of stamp.
You and OS have Japanese barbers. Gents who should know beyond doubt which is which and what is right. I find in use, when the razor is sharpy sharp that both sides work.
It would certainly help to have this most basic element cleared up, which side to use, and to let further descriptions adopt the correct Japanese terminology rather than relying on inaccurate comparative terms like wedge and hollow.
Kevin, you're absolutely right. It's just too confusing. This weekend I plan to visit my legendary barber. He agreed to give me a honing lesson, and I'll ask for some shaving tips as well...I will of course post any information I receive.
I ALSO have a lead on an old Japanese barber manual with razor honing info written by none other than Iwasaki-san himself...More on that later.
Last week I came across a youtube video of someone shaving with a japanese straight. There are probably more. The video gave me some useful ideas for regular straight razor shaving.
I'll be trying a japanese straight in 1 or 2 weeks.
The traditional Japanese Straight was being used long before western style straights were introduced into Japan. Very few Japanese in the old days went to barbers for shaves the same as most westerners. Most shaved themselves.
Its like I have always said when we come across something that seems alien to us we try and think of some complicated reason to explain it instead of just accepting the obvious. In this case the obvious is they learned to use the straight the same way we learn to use a Western Straight.
OK, so I talked to my barber about shaving with a kamisori, and he said that it should only be used with the flat/omote/no-kanji side against the face. This is because the honing ratio/style makes a bevel that cutes best flat against the face. If you do it backward, the bevel angle will be all wrong and you'll be at greater risk of cuts and uneven shaves.
Again, this is what my barber says. I trust him, but do what you will.
I believe the only You Tube Video on a Japanese Style Straight Razor is one where the guy is using a non folding Feather Razor.
One with a real Japanese razor would be killer.
Lynn
When I first saw a Japanese straight I really wanted one. But after I learned how you have to use one hand I thought it would be kinda awkward.
However, now the more I read about them the more I find myselt thinking it would be fun learning how to use it.
All that aside, I don't think my bank ballance will allow me to get one any time soon.
One last addition, I practiced my honing on my Tosuke tonight, and just gave it a shave.
DANG, that is one smooth shave...
They take a little getting used to, especially since you kind of have to forget your usual WTG/XTG/ATG patterns and learn to fit the razor, rather than fit it to you.
Lynn, I'll consider it, as soon as I get prettier. ;)
Agreed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynn
I may have to do this!
I know what I'll be doing this evening! Picturing it in my head it should make most things much easier. A regular 3 pass style shave? no, i cant manage to do that regardless.Quote:
Originally Posted by JimR
Someone had to go get the rice cake- Thank you Jim-sensei for clearing that up. Is the stamp side then, still the ura?
No no, thank Kawaguchi sensei...he's a true gem. And yes, the ura is the stamped side--sorry for that confusion. I asked especially--stamp side Ura, no stamp omote. Omote against the face.Quote:
Originally Posted by kevint
What I did tonight was practice grips. I found that I needed to shift the razor into some rather unorthodox grips to get a good shave, but I did get an exceptionally good shave so it can be done.
I just finished reading your latest blog entry. It does seem obvious; Now !
Do you try to do w; x; atg s?
You're right. I had a quick search, and the video I remembered was with the Feather razor.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynn
Thanks for reading, Kevin! Nope. I never do a WTG pass except around my mouth, with any straight. I found that with a properly honed razor, it doesn't add anything to my shave but more time. I start XTG everywhere else. With a kamisori, this means that I have to try several different grips, and try to forget my usual patterns. I still mostly go XTG on the first pass, but I ALSO mostly go XTG on the second pass except for a few spots where I can manage ATG. In addition, my XTG is sometimes in the opposite direction from a regular straight--meaning, for example, instead of going nose to ear on my left sideburn, I go ear to nose. Things like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by kevint
The hard part was still my neck...I couldn't manage to get more than one angle down there. But I'm thinking of doing a "One month of only Kamisori" challenge to see if I can get it right.
My shave last night, with a minimum of grain-following, got me a lot of rather positive reactions from my wife...I think that's a good sign.
I have tried this twice now with my heavy 55mm. Using skin/omote style makes for much easier handling. That's really all I can say. Perhaps I need more practice with the angle, which as it's now working is rather steep. The ura I can lay down against the skin. Both sides shaving equally as near as I can tell.
Even after two re-finishings the edge is not what it should be from either side. I think I will drop back to 4 or 5k and try to sort that out before trying again.
I definately take my hat off to all you who get your best shaves from the assymetrical devils.
Cheers and good luck
http://straightrazorpalace.com/attac...tosuke-tip.jpg
Pic of the tip of a Tosuke.
Kanji side is to the right.
Just to add to the discussion for anyone not familiar with what these look like.
Also my diagram of the difference in cutting angle between Japanese and western styale razors.
Forgive my amateur observations, but, including the bevel on the JSR, isn't the cutting angle exactly the same as the wedge? If you were to turn the diagram of the JSR so that the dotted line was perfectly horizontal, I believe you would have the exact same angle as you do on the wedge.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphim
Of course, if that's just the picture and not the blade itself then I'll stand corrected. I might be getting one of those Tosukes really soon.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oglethorpe
Yes, in the end a cutting edge is a triangle, no matter how you slice it.
But, there is a difference between a knife edge and a chisel, is there not? To me, a western style razor is equivalent to a knife (symetric orientation to major axis of handle/blade), the Japanese style is similar to a chisel in edge geometry (asymetric orientation to major axis of handle/blade). If you have ever used a chisel, you will know that you get different types of cuts depending on which side you use.
I had a Tosuke briefly. It took a wicked edge, and gave a close shave, but I just did noy groove with the asymetry thing.
Cool.. I get what you're saying. Also, I imagine it has something to do with the direction in which the force is applied. It creates a moving angle at a different degree than a "knife" shaped bevel.
Sir,Quote:
Originally Posted by JimR
Thanks for helping us find the right information as there is some erroneous information provided by some of our well-meaning members; I know it's not intentional but we are all learning from each other and that's what counts.
So, one uses the flat or the convex side against the face! Someone told me to use the concave side with the writing against the face which means it would best be suited for a lefty or a contourtionist.
There is alot of misinformation about the honing rations all the way from 3:1,3:2 and 7:3. The last came from a Japanese manual so I trust it the most.
My shaves have been close shaves as the edge grabs wach whisker like an angry samurai.
There is no smoothmess just lots of gripping. I have a nos Tosuke
So, do I hone more on the flat side or the hollowed out side with the writing?
Can you get Master Iwasaki-san's instructions on how to hone a razor?
Very Respectfully,
Dominic