Musings on the forgiveness of different grinds

So first off this isn't scientific, I was just shave testing a few different blades and thinking about them as I did so.

Depending on size, not-hollow grinds propel themselves- so you are already resisting their weight, so when you feel it catch you can just stop the blade easier. With the full hollows to some degree you have to pull them along a little, but this means when it catches your reflex has to switch muscles to reverse direction and I would assume this hinders your ability to mitigate a nick. Maybe its jerkier or something, but from personal experience I think its just harder to change directions. Like, when I'm weightlifting, and we're, let's say, squatting, this change of direction is very noticeable.

Almost everyone can lift the weight initially- from the rack straight up. Now, using the same weight, you move downward, stop, and have to move back up. People can hold the weight, and they can clearly resist it (you don't just drop, you go down real slow, much slower than the weight's gravitational acceleration), and 99% of the time can stop it (so they can hold it at full compression) but then either can't go anywhere or have to lift it. They either then collapse, or get it moving again at which point they'll be able to finish.

So the analogy is a little off- everyone can clearly lift a razor. My point is that maybe with the wedge one is already resisting edge-first motion, (think about holding up the razor to your face, if suddenly the razor disappeared and your muscles stayed in the same state, your hand would rise) so its easy to just realise it, resist a little more and stop/reverse the blade. With the hollow grind, one is pulling it, so when you feel a nick your nerves/muscles have to realise it, stop, switch muscles, and back out.

I dunno. What do you guys think? I realise there is the argument that full hollows are harsher/keener (not necessarily sharper though) than wedges. Im' just putting it out there that this may be a factor too. Feel free to shoot me down lol.

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Originally Posted by khaos

What do you guys think? I realise there is the argument that full hollows are harsher/keener (not necessarily sharper though) than wedges. Im' just putting it out there that this may be a factor too.

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I am not sure I understand the difference between sharp and keen. That aside, I cannot follow your argument, even from the viewpoint of my limited experience (approx. 50 razors, and only 8 of them not hollow ground ones). The rest is mostly down to technique (ie how you deal with the potentially higher of amount of blade flexibility a hollow ground razor can have).

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Originally Posted by khaos

Feel free to shoot me down lol.

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We are not the other forum.

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Originally Posted by BeBerlin

I am not sure I understand the difference between sharp and keen. That aside, I cannot follow your argument, even from the viewpoint of my limited experience (approx. 50 razors, and only 8 of them not hollow ground ones). The rest is mostly down to technique (ie how you deal with the potentially higher of amount of blade flexibility a hollow ground razor can have).

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I agree. A lot has to do with technique. But I think (after I had learned to shave with both grinds) almost all of my bad nicks came from hollows. Like, at the point where I felt it hurt, the hollows always end up bleeding more. The wedges just leave redness or a very thin line that seals up quickly.

Also I never really understood the flex argument- if the razor is caught on your skin, the only way it would flex is if you kept applying pressure- and the flexing would take some of the energy out of it, while the inflexible wedge would just plow into you.

As to my argument- think about it this way. Take something of sizable heft (a book or something) and hold it still. Lift it. How much effort did that take? This was you resisting gravity, then simply applying a little more to go against gravity. Now lower the book with some force, and try and stop its motion and raise it in one go. This was you providing an impulse against downward acceleration, then another to lift it. Which required more force/was harder to do? That's my point in a nutshell.

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Originally Posted by BeBerlin

We are not the other forum.

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I was joking lol. What I meant by feel free to shoot me down was by no means am I declaring anything right or wrong- I could be completely wrong, just posing an idea for peer review.

Singing razors flex around the curves of your chin and cheeks. Not all full hollow razors flex though, in fact most are quite rigid. Today singing razors are no longer made.

I think given a set of all grinds and sizes and assuming they are of equal quality and equally crafted you will get equal shapness from all of them. The different grinds will certainly feel different but that is a consequence of the grind as it goes over your skin. In the end the result will be the same. You shouldn't have to press or push any harder or softer. If you do the razor needs honing.

So in the end its a matter of the kind of feel you prefer as you shave as some prefer a heavier razor or a lighter one or a big one or a small one. The same with grinds.

I have always thought the reason each razor seems to have a personality of its own isn't just because of the obvious difference of grind, size and weight but other things like balance and scale types and the differences in steel and the differences when the razors themselves are crafted.

The truth of the matter,

They made so many different grinds, from a true full wedge step by thinning step all the way down to an extra full hollow... Why????

Because people are different, it really is as simple as that, what you might like and think is the cat's meow honestly, doesn't make a bit of difference to the next guy...

Figure out your best Grind, Size, Point, and even Steel and stick with it... But to actually try and decide why a grind might shave you better when it doesn't shave the next guy better, using a scientific process is unfortunately a bunch of hooey, as one man's trash might be another's treasure...

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

I think given a set of all grinds and sizes and assuming they are of equal quality and equally crafted you will get equal shapness from all of them. The different grinds will certainly feel different but that is a consequence of the grind as it goes over your skin. In the end the result will be the same. You shouldn't have to press or push any harder or softer. If you do the razor needs honing.

So in the end its a matter of the kind of feel you prefer as you shave as some prefer a heavier razor or a lighter one or a big one or a small one. The same with grinds.

I have always thought the reason each razor seems to have a personality of its own isn't just because of the obvious difference of grind, size and weight but other things like balance and scale types and the differences in steel and the differences when the razors themselves are crafted.

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+1 on TheBigSpender and Glen.

Your example of counter force using a wedge is a good step in the right direction but it falls short. Developing the correct counter force in shaving with any style blade is a major part of developing your shaving technique with that blade. Most of us will experience and compensate for the different blades but it is a hidden trait and usually is not noticed. You will find this is where the difference comes between just doing something and doing it well. You will find this trait performed well in the best of athletes, craftsman, skilled trades politicians and the best thinkers. Opposing forces does not need to be physical.

Also and with respect, if all you are getting from wedges is redness or a small cut that heals quickly they are not as sharp as they can be. If you just touch it to your face w/o movement sideways or up and down with enough pressure to just barely feel it and it cuts you, then you are there.

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Originally Posted by cotdt

Today singing razors are no longer made.

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I thought DOVO still made them..? Aren't the Prima Klang razors an extra hollow "singing" grind? :shrug:

I am trying a scientific experiment in order to determine which shaves better unaided by hand or technique

First I lay out a grid on my cheek. Using each:a small hollow ground razor weighing 50 grams, and a large wedge weighing 100 grams.

Laying one in its turn against my cheek, and allowed to fall naturally. I should, by subtracting my weight each time from a predetermined total, be able to determine what mass of whisker was removed at each trial....

What should have been been plainly obvious is now painfully obvious: that it is only by variables of angle, pressure and applied force that different grinds, sizes and styles are capable of equal result.

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Originally Posted by Joed

Also and with respect, if all you are getting from wedges is redness or a small cut that heals quickly they are not as sharp as they can be. If you just touch it to your face w/o movement sideways or up and down with enough pressure to just barely feel it and it cuts you, then you are there.

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It's interesting you mention this because I have only been honing my full hollows... My 3 "wedges" that I save with were all sharpened by others, 2 of which pass the HHT (a rare occurence with my hair) Anyways.

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Originally Posted by khaos

It's interesting you mention this because I have only been honing my full hollows... My 3 "wedges" that I save with were all sharpened by others, 2 of which pass the HHT (a rare occurence with my hair) Anyways.

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Bring the wedges with you the next time you stop over and I'll take a look at them for you.

Sure will JoeD. The only blades I have that pass the HHT more than half the time with my hair are two from hi_bud_gl and 2 of the 3 I sent to Utopian

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Originally Posted by khaos

Sure will JoeD. The only blades I have that pass the HHT more than half the time with my hair are two from hi_bud_gl and 2 of the 3 I sent to Utopian

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Then I expect they were well honed when they were put in the mail. The bottom line is if you are comfortable with the edges. My comments above were relating to your thread on weight of the blade and nicks/cuts.

You should know by now that the HHT should not be a gauge of how shave ready edges may be. Also, there are different levels for passing the HHT i.e. can you drop the hair on the edge and have it cut the hair in two?

Nope. That never happens with my hairs. Even on my sharpest hollow ground. The best I can get is if I hold the hair a quarter inch form the end, at a slight angle.

You missed out an important factor, I think, feedback. Hollows give much more feedback, so any potential nicks may already have been mitigated by the feedback.

Anyway, it's a dead end because every one is different. A lot of people wouldn't use the razors I use regularly, because they're too small, but I love them. Different strokes!

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Originally Posted by khaos

Nope. That never happens with my hairs. Even on my sharpest hollow ground. The best I can get is if I hold the hair a quarter inch form the end, at a slight angle.

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Have you tried shaving with zwieback or a towel already?

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Originally Posted by BeBerlin

Have you tried shaving with zwieback or a towel already?

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Sorry what do you mean?