Blasphemy

Lately we have welcomed many new shavers into our midst here and this site is growing by leaps and bounds and thats a great thing and I give all of you a collective welcome.

But that's not the purpose of this post. Typically the usual newbe post goes something like " I've read everything there is to read about straight shaving in the world and I have 200 posts here and I'm getting ready for my first shave and I just got my maestro razor honed by lynn which passes every test known to man and my simpson's brush and my trumpers cream and my fancy oils and aftershaves and I soak my face in the shower and I steamed a cloth in the microwave and my face looks like a cooked chicken and I shaved this morning and my face is now all nicked up and red like a beet and irritated. Do you think I should send it back to lynn for more sharpening"?

And what do we all tell him? yea send it back its not sharp enough or maybe your face wasn't cooked enough. Or maybe get a pasted strop and start stroping away.

So whats my point here. I think all will agree that when it comes down to the nitty gritty of it there are really only two factors in being a successful shaver. 1-of course having a quality sharp razor but equally important is having the skill and experience to use it and it doesn't come easy or quickly.

Certainly everone here enjoys quality products but really all that fancy smelling stuff is mostly window dressing, something we use because it makes us feel good.

I would venture a guess and here I call the shavers who have been doing this for many years that they could shave with a straight using NOTHING but hot water period and get a great comfortable shave. What do you think?

I would like to see the experienced people here stress the experience and patience over the hardware and technical stuff a little more. Everyone's comments are welcome.

I agree completely. I think skill and patience will win out in the end and make us ALL experts! :D

I agree with you. I'm sure my great-grandfather wasn't browsing the net, soaking in all the possible info he could get off the forums and spending the contemporary equivalent of $500 on his equipment. A regular razor, a leather strop, an easily available hone, a brush made of hair belonging to an animal that could be easily hunted down near his village and some soap made of ashes and the lard of the pig he slaughtered that fall were enough. Moonshine was the only aftershave he ever needed. And his research was his own experience and a couple of lessons he got from his dad. Which brings me to another point. How did the ancient Romans shave before the iron age? I don't know if their bronze blades could pass the hanging hair test lol.

You make a good point. I still have tons to learn about honing. Stropping, I believe I have that down. I think that it's possible that too many beginners get their razor and start stropping like Lynn in his video...and ruin the edge. I'm glad I started with a paddle strop from Tony. I don't see how you can "strop at the speed of light" with a paddle strop. I had to focus on technique and properly turning the razor. For anyone who starts out with a shave ready razor and gets only one or two good shaves before it falls apart, I believe the improper stropping is the key.

Randy

Good point, in fact I do shave with just hot water...LOL. I think we need a primer page like over at SMF. What drives me nuts the most is the guy who buys all that stuff and says .... "and now I've just stropped it backwards and for some reason it won't shave" ...

...on the other hand if someone buys all the best equipment, I am surprised but not feeling really critical, they just sense, like most guys, that they can buy there way to an easier learning curve.

But if I'm guilty of said action I'll try and correct from here . . .

I started shaving with a shavette, used that for a couple months until I was confortable using one of the razors I got from Lynn. That way all I had to do was concentrate on learning to shave, not worry about maintenance on my razor, or if it was sharp enough. The shavette was a lot less forgiving, but I learned, after 3 or 4 cuts.

I agree 100%. I started with the cheapest Illinois hanging strop, a narrow TI paddle with 2 pastes, a $54 Dovo, Grandpa's mug and a Burma Shave brush.

I nicked myself like crazy but kept going. After 2 months of daily practice the nicks stopped and I got nice shaves. Then I treated myself to, well, another $54 Dovo. You can do this with the basics. An inexpensive razor, a basic strop and a basic mug and brush. You can send your razor out for sharpening and never need to buy a hone or pasted strop.

The extras can make things easier as you learn to shave or after you learn to shave. A top quality brush, or strop, or creme adds to the experience but is not the factor that will make or break a shave. There are quite a few guys here that post regularly that use an old restored ebay special razor, a thrift store belt for a strop and a $27 Arkansas stone. Maybe not the best choices to use but they learned how to use it properly and get as good iof a shave as the rest of us.

Nice equipment can add to the experience but does not give you experience. Part of the idea behind my starter kits was to give the minimum equipment needed, at the lowest cost to get you started. Many beginners ask for upgrades to the kit but in all honesty I would start with the basics and go from there.

Being guys though I guess many of us go for the flash. we like technical stuff and quickly become equipment freaks. Oddly my shavette kit was a flop. A Shavette, a mug and a brush. The absolute basics to get going to see if you like the concept of a straight without all the extras.......most guys e-mailed and wanted to add, well,.... the extras <g>.

My advice....buy basic, learn to use it, THEN, go out and treat yourself as a reward for learning.

Tony

Interesting post and thread. Keep in mind that a lot of new people have left and would leave if not for the help of the folks on this forum. Experience and patience and practice are always going to be essential, but there are times when people are not stropping properly, shaving with too steep an angle, etc. I have seen folks completely dull a freshly honed razor with a single stropping. I have seen people have better luck with the Norton and the Coticule and some with pastes. Personally, I will always prefer the hanging strop. I don't use the linen much. I really don't like the thin paddle strops compared to a wider loom type strop. When it comes to razors, bottom line Dovo's will never be as nice as some of the older German's, British, French or Swedish razors. The experiences shared regarding great razors by the membership here is very beneficial to the new person. So is just reading the information in the links and files. Before this forum, there really was not much available for a new person to learn. So now that it's here and now that we have such a great membership, we should utilize all the help folks are willing to give, all the technology available and all the encouragement for patience and practice we can give. Just my 2 cents. Lynn

PS......shaving with just hot water really does work. I still like the lather better, but we have had several members who were firmly committed to just water.....lol. Have fun. Lynn

Lynn,
I think wider is better too when it comes to strops. I used only a 2 1/2" till I tried the 3" and now it is my favorite and it seems my customers as well.

For the ultimate edge I do think stones will do it but require much more commitment both in investment of money and time. There is satisfaction in doing the entire process on stones (and I am saying they with 4 razors at Lynn's now <g>) but beginners seem to do better with abrasive pastes at least at first. Most of the group seems pretty well rounded and using a variety of methods and equipment. I have a few top end things and a few basics too. I use stones when I have time, pastes when I want fast results. Part of the fun is trying things too. While I am a dedicated straight user I am having fun with some DE razors too although evey time I use one I do feel like I cheated <g>.

The best advice I can think of is to carefully read all the posts by both beginner and pro, stop to think about what was said and why, then apply what sounds good and practice until you see some results but do try to develop a plan that works for you even if it does not always follow convention.

I think about the posts by AF Davis. A year ago he was asking questions and trying all the known methods in honing. Now he posts regularly on the subject and has developed a model that works very well for him but is a bit different than many here use. I think at one point he even mentioned taking time away from all the posting to find what woprked for him. Joe Lerch too takes a scientific approach to all this and once learning basics and asking questions has developed a succesful approach as well, again different than what was just handed to him. Asking, research and thought lead to success here.

Tony Miller

Cool Stuff. New guys have been just as frustrated using pastes as experimenting with barber hones and yes even the Norton and the Coticule. It is amazing how much variety there is out there. Every face and every razor and and every one of us have our own tolerance level. Tis why this sport is so much fun and why everyone's experiences help the rest of us in some way. Gotta love it. Lynn

I haven't enjoyed anything as much since I discovered my pecker.:D

There is so many different methods and styles (shaving that is) hones, paddle strops etc. Its fun to learn.

I think part of the issue is answering the same old questions. We have talked about creating a sticky that stays at the top of the forum to serve as a FAQ for each forum (honing/stropping, etc) that covers the main recurring questions.

Like thebigspendur and Tony (heirphoto) pointed out, basics as where it's at. You can get a good shave using a $7-$10 brush, $1 soap and a shavette as the bare minimum. All the extra smells, gold wash, and damascus steels are great but not really "necessary" for a good shave.

A couple of things to watch out for. First, it's important to keep a beginner's mind about things. With beginners, this is all fresh and new and it should be for all of us as well. Which leads to point two, watch out for being sure you really know something. If your brain thinks it knows it, you will stop learning about it and your knowledge will be stuck right where it is today.

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Originally Posted by sensei_kyle

I think part of the issue is answering the same old questions. We have talked about creating a sticky that stays at the top of the forum to serve as a FAQ for each forum (honing/stropping, etc) that covers the main recurring questions.

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Two things about doing this to consider. I believe that a number of newbies visiting forums are looking for shortcuts, and the sticky won't really get read, just like many threads and posts don't get read. This past week, on one of the DE forums, an old thread was pulled up about shaving with a particular razor. At one time, the thread had included a video, which for whatever reason, is no longer available. Several members commented in different posts that nothing could be done, the video was gone. Not available. Not coming back. Yet, the last post I read on that thread was a guy with 2-3 posts asking where it could be found. The other thing is that using a sticky with FAQ's may lead many to believe they now "know it all", and stop or slow down participation from new guys. Seeing the same questions can get tiresome, but as new guys get experience, they also begin to help answer those questions, and having just started, their perspective and replies may actually be more helpful to others.

Just my 2 cents.

RT

It has been really fun watching the new guys coming in and asking questions only to eventually be the guys giving the answers. Lynn

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Originally Posted by adjustme69

It has been really fun watching the new guys coming in and asking questions only to eventually be the guys giving the answers. Lynn

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True even when we don't know what we are talking about:D :D

Being a new guy... I can say that the members in here ALWAYS lead you in the right direction. (despite being asked the same questions all the time) Although there may be slight differences in styles, the basics are the same. When you first join the site and begin to post, it really feels great that people are so eager to help. I enjoy reading and learning whenever I get the chance. It REALLY is a great site.

Morningshow

That main thing that sets up apart from a lot of other forums is the number of folks willing to help. We're all here to learn, we all want to get better, and most of us want to share what we've learned so other folks don't have to spend time making the same mistakes we did. There's lots of right ways to do it, and lots of experience in just about every way possible.

The main problem I suppose is the instant gratification society that we live in. People want it and they want it now.

While the learning curve may be a little longer for some than it is for others, in the end we will all get to where we are headed if we just have a little patience. Rome wasn't built in a day and neither wil learning to shave with a straight.

My thoughts....


Terry

god now you all have me worried that Im killing my edges from stropping :eek:

My thoughts in opening this thread wasn't to say that we shouldn't be helpful to beginners or that buying luxury shave items is bad or that giving the same advice over and over again is bad. Certainly, as long as we welcome beginners we will always be rehashing what is obvious to some of us over and over again and thats ok. Consider it a worthy price we pay to keep this art going and expanding. Its also OK in my book to buy top of the line items. Personally, I'm afraid I'm guilty of that myself.

My point here is that buying these top end products should not be the magic key for a beginner to think he will get a great shave just by having all that stuff. Rather its like a wine conoseur who buys pricey wine because he has learned how to enjoy and discriminate differing wine qualities. Thusly, "we" shave experts have mastered the basics and can now better enjoy the perceived quality to be enjoyed from this better quality paraphanelia whether the benefits are pschological or real.

Afterall we all know that a just washed and waxed car runs no better than a dirty one, or does it? Hmmm

If your technique is good, it is practically impossible to over-strop on a plain strop. Like the old Ford slogan, "Quality is job 1." Just go to the basics: strop is taught; strokes are slow, deliberate and using only enough pressure to keep the edge in contact with the strop. Sometimes a little extra pressure is warranted, but too little is better than too much. 20-30 round trips and you're good to go.

When I was younger I was an extremist about most things. Go big or go home.

After many lessons learned from mistakes I try to always play devil's advocate with myself and try and prove myself wrong, a kind of continual negative check. It has lead me to believe that there is always more than two sides to any story. This is likely the same situation.

Centuries ago men were raised into a culture of straight shaving where most of the questions the n00b poses had been answered by the time they were actually shaving. We're dealing with men who are relearning how to shave. It can be frustrating not knowing exactly which combination of a dozen or so factors are not working for you out of the gate.

Sure water works, but new shavers will definitely benefit from having as many factors working in their favour as possible, including a better blade, good creams etc. Think about the olympic athlete who's success is dependant upon those two tenths of a second. Skill IS the first thing, but those wind cutting suits and ultra light weight waxed equipment sure do help them out.

X

Very true X:hmmm:

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Originally Posted by xman

When I was younger I was an extremist about most things. Go big or go home.

After many lessons learned from mistakes I try to always play devil's advocate with myself and try and prove myself wrong, a kind of continual negative check. It has lead me to believe that there is always more than two sides to any story. This is likely the same situation.

Centuries ago men were raised into a culture of straight shaving where most of the questions the n00b poses had been answered by the time they were actually shaving. We're dealing with men who are relearning how to shave. It can be frustrating not knowing exactly which combination of a dozen or so factors are not working for you out of the gate.

Sure water works, but new shavers will definitely benefit from having as many factors working in their favour as possible, including a better blade, good creams etc. Think about the olympic athlete who's success is dependant upon those two tenths of a second. Skill IS the first thing, but those wind cutting suits and ultra light weight waxed equipment sure do help them out.

X

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Now its obvious I am a very new shaver, but I have to to chime in here. This is more about the "go big or go home statement" made by X.

My life has been about "go big or go home, bigger is better, if its more expensive it must be better. I used to be a competetion powerlifter, everything about my life was big eating big lifting. Then I was a competetive fighter and my life was about the ring. Then I got into private security and until they got to heavy or bulky, my guns were the biggest I could buy. I had unfortunately taught myself to be obsessive about the one thing I am most interested at the time. Had I gotten into shaving a few years ago before I realized that the only reason I focused on only one thing at a time was because I had nothing in my life worth focusing on (i.e. love, family, pets, career, etc) I would already have been honing the 20 razors I would have purchased by now.

But my life has changed, I am no longer in the shape I was used to be in. I can no longer lift weights that rival a pickup truck load limit, and I have learned through injuries that I am very mortal, and perhaps even genetically flawed. I no longer chase random women and no longer view sex as a sport, and I am a more balance person through my many travels and experiences.

Thas being said, I still fall back on my old faithfull view that bigger and more is better at times. When I started straight shaving I just HAD to have a 6/8 blade, and that was because I couldnt afford a 7/8 :). I wanted to know what the best of the best was, I didnt buy it, but I wanted to obsess over it for a while, and that is the fun of a hobby. The difference is that this hobby can take me away from the stress of the rest of my life and give me something to be proud of. It also allows me to talk to a group of guys which is nice for someone like me who is always traveling and doesnt get a chance to create bonds with many people. So yes I ask lots of questions and yes I like to be part of the group and YES I want the best of the best! But it seems to me that everyone on the board is here because they are slightly obsessive like I am, and because they have passion like I do. I just dont see anyone that wants to take the easy road...there is just no pride or reward in that.

Ok now that I have vented, I am going to go post another question about my latest shave. :D

Great thread!

Richz, where can I get one of those "pecker" strops you mentioned. :D

Thebigspendur, a just washed and waxed car does run better. Scientific fact!

JL, thanks for sharing.

Emil

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Originally Posted by mmm_shavingcream

... where can I get one of those "pecker" strops you mentioned.

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:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:
DON'T !!! Don't even think about it. Please, my sphincter is clamping shut just imagining ...
NO That's enough. Changing topic now. How 'bout them Canadiens?

X

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mmm_shavingcream

Great thread!

Richz, where can I get one of those "pecker" strops you mentioned. :D


Emil

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Now that is a real man talking!!:D
No even I can't go there :eek:

What about us Canadians? *angry face* *honing my axe*

I bought my razors off ebay. I cleaned them. I sharpened them using a 4000/8000 wet stone. I stropped them and I cut the piss out of myself for a few weeks. Them I read an article that said you should not restore razors. I then found you guys and things have gotten better. Every body has to start some where. It may be the best equipment and all the accoutrements at first, or it may be the way I did it. With a good very old razor and hard work. Either way this site is the best thing going and I would just like to say thank you to all you old farts for being there for folks like me and the rest of the guys who did not know whether to wind our butts or scratch our watches. ;)

Very good thread!
I remember a thread in nassrasurforum.de, where they were talking about the special temperature the lather has to have (in degrees!!!). :o
I first thought this was a kind of joking but they were taking it very serious!
... imagine our grandfathers listening to such, let me say: very sophisticated tech talk ... :D

@pmays
Thats exactly the way I do it. It's fantastic to discover -behind rust and dust- a great blade wich gives a superb close shave.

With stropping and honing it's the same: I don't count exactly, I try to feel ...
... with the open mind of a beginner and the experience of a daily shaver ...

Anyway this forum is really great and without Lynns Video my ears would lay in the gutter ... (is it "gutter"??)

Arnd

Yes for me a little experience made a lot of difference. In fact the more I spend on shaving stuff the worse my shaves get. Either I need time to learn that new hone, the blade needs more friggin' honing, or the strop isn't broken in enough. Just using one blade, some Dove soap, and an old strop works great. Sometimes I think honing isn't a skill at all. Its just passing the blade over a stone a gagillion times and posting on here every trillion or so passes, and honemiesters giving a word of encouragement in between.

"Yeaaaaa, just use light pressure and you'll get it".

In the background their grinning and going

"Yea, your dog would get it with enough passes for crying out loud, your moving a piece of steel over a soft low grit rock, did you think it was going to take 4 swipes?" :-)

I think for me part of the problem was not having a frame of reference. I've never learned to hone a knife, let alone a razor. Now I still use more pressure on both the hone and strop then I think most guys do but reading about using "light" pressure, technically has no meaning. Only when you hone and use the feel of a certain amount of pressure do you realize that light could have all kinds of definitions. And then it hits you that all the light pressure in the world doesn't mean squat if the blade is lifting off the hone.

Most guys gravitate towards equipment solutions over experience. Now I can't fail to hone a razor. Its like a secondary function next to brushing my teeth. How did that happen? Doesn't matter what grit, hone, razor, brush . . . in fact I don't even need a brush anymore. I think I do like a good strop though. But don't give me a new one, the old one isn't going anywhere.

But it has to be practice and experience. I've gotten a great shave with a stainless/carbon/singing/half hollow/5/8-7/8 razor honed on a barber/Norton/ SANDPAPER!/NEWSPAPER!/Col. Conk hone, and stropped it up nice on a Tony Miller/Linen/balsa wood/Dovo strop! And I've gotten bad shaves from any combination of the above equipment too.

One thing we don't emphasize enough is mentorship. The guys who I see on here that get it, and get it quick, are the ones that visit someone else and SEE what its all about.

Now that's an excellent idea. Is there anyone in the Greater Toronto Area of the vicinity who knows what he's doing with both the hone and the strop? :D
Even though I got my Pakistani to shave, I'd still like to learn from a master, especially once my new e-bay purchase arrives from England. (*) Any takers?

(*) Nenad helped me pick my new baby out and has my eternal gratitude :)