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are there any special techniques i need to use when shaving with a straight? i believe i've heard people talk about the angle of the razor....like the slant bar DE imitates the way a straight cuts....am i supposed to have the toe of the razor slanted up or down when I shave?
The general opinion here is that you keep the razor at about a 30 degree angle to your face.
As you gain more experience you'll find you are really constantly making little adjustments depending on the area of your face and everyones facial geography is different. It will become second nature and you won't even realize your doing it.
If you look at the barber's manual, they teach that you should shave with a toe leading slant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Lerch
that is what i was asking about.
so you should put the toe lower than the heel. why exactly is that?
I do not lead with either. Just the 30 degree off the face.:eek:
It prevents the cut from being a pure push cut. Angling the blade gives you a slight shearing action, which makes it easier to cut.Quote:
Originally Posted by obsessis
I hear a lot of guys here say that, when doing the neck, their angle is rather less than elsewhere on the face. In my limited experience, I need to do that, too, especially on the lower, softer parts of the neck: it's like the spine of the razor is barely lifted off my face, and I'm going gentle, gentle, gentle. If I try for a full 30 degrees on my neck, I'll occasionally feel it cut into the skin and I just about have a heart attack. (Although I'm learning, on the neck, to pull the skin from above like crazy, getting a taut, flat surface to shave; then I can lift the spine up a tad, putting a little more angle on.)
Although the nominal razor angle off the skin is told to us to be nominally 30 degrees, I think that way off, and it's to your advantage to make it less.Quote:
Originally Posted by deepweeds
Just an example. If you were using an 8/8 razor a 30 degree angle would put the spine half an inch above the skin. Can you imagine that? Even with a 5/8 it would be 5/16 of an inch, which seems kind of high.
As you noticed, the greater angle increases the tendency to cut the skin. What you also should know is that the greater angle causes the edge to act more likea scraper, which will increase irritation. So, you would do well to minimize that angle to something between one and two spine widths, and you'll find the angle is a lot closer to 20 degrees. There's a limit, of course, because the blade just stops cutting at some point, so you want to keep the angle well past that point so you don't stop cutting as you move the razor around.
If you watch the experts, like Lynn, he takes the entire side of his face in one long stroke. Getting that entire strip cut evenly takes a lot of skill, especially when you're rounding the jaw during the stroke. If you want to be like Lynn, you'll have to work your way up to it. Find a comfortable angle on your cheek and take short strokes (say 1") so you can always feel the razor cutting evenly and smoothly, and make adjustments with each stroke to keep it that way. In time you'll get the feel for it and be able to lengthen the stroke and adjust the angle "on the fly" to keep the cut even.
After that, the most important thing on the neck is to keep the skin flat so the razor is making contact evenly over its entire cutting width (whatever width your using). If you don't do that, you'll have irritation spots that receive more pressure than others, and you'll probably nick anything that protrudes much above that surface.
And the neck is very sensitive. So, don't use any more pessure than is necessary.
Just to be clear about this, there are two different angles peopple can be writing about and we shold look fort clarity between them.
First, the spine at generally about 30º from your face is the Shaving Angle. A somewhat more acute angle is sometimes recommended for some areas (like the neck) from time to time.
Secondly, the up to 30º :eek: angle at which the tip leads the heel is the Cutting Angle. I'm more comfortable with a less aggressive 10º or so and like the results.
X
Thanks for the clarifying language. I've actually referred to each in different messages in this thread. First the cutting angle and later the shaving angle.
You might wanna check this thread, it's been discussed before. Illustrated, too...
http://straightrazorpalace.com2/show...ighlight=angle
Nenad
One thing that you may have noticed in this discussion is that cutting angle depends on the size of the razor. For example, 30 degrees with a 5/8 raises the spine off the skin about 5/16", which can be reduced, but is not bad. When you go to an 8/8 razor 30 degrees raises the spine off the skin 1/2", which I don't think anyone would do. A much more universal rule of thumb would be to raise the spine about 2 spine widths off the skin. I would reduce it from there, if you can without hurting the cutting action..
Joe,
That is a good rule of thumb. You don't want to add a protractor to your shaving equipment.:D :D
in this link i found the following quote, which i hope one of you shave masters could comment on:Quote:
Originally Posted by superfly
"The so-called "slicing" or "scything" angle has been referenced in several places, and refers to eihter the toe leading the heel, or the heel leading the toe during the shaving stroke. The SAME spine-to-face angle exists as always, and the same pressure-to-face.
That said, there was a comment I read someplace that got even more granular than this. They commented on the fact that manner in which you honed the razor had a lot to do with the actual cutting edge, and predetermined which "scything" angel to use - toe leading or heel leading! Apparently had something to do with the very edge fins being oriented in one direction or the other."
in talking about the "edge fins being oriented in one direction or the other," i'm assuming that chaaz was talking about striations? if so, and assuming that with a downward stroke on a hone the striations would lead toward the heel, would that mean that a heel leading stroke would be preferable to a toe leading stroke? in the toe leading stroke, you'd be cutting at an oblique angle to the striation whereas with the heel leading stroke, you'd be cutting along the angle of striation.
i ask because after about 5 weeks of straight razor shaving, i'm finally progressing to the point where i want to develop a better scything technique, but am curious about the difference between toe-leading vs. heel-leading. thanks for all the great dope, y'all! and if this was answered in the archives, i apologize in advance for not having been thorough enough in my readings...
jake
taipei, taiwan
Let's look at this in simple terms. The regular x-pattern can be duplicated on a wide hone by going straight across with the heel leading. This produces a striation pattern that goes up and back from the edge.Quote:
Originally Posted by jake
The fin is a microscopic saw tooth pattern that constitutes the cutting edge of the razor. The pattern is created where the striations end at the edge because they're on a bevel. The plataues between striations form the teeth. Honing with heel leading gives you asymmetrical saw teeth where the leading ramp of a tooth is much steeper than the trailing ramp (see the micrograph in the honing section of the barbers manual (downloadable from the documents section here). When you shave tip leading, it tilts that leading edge so it's at a an incline relative to the direction of movement and slices across the hairs. If you lead withthe heel, the shallow trailing edge of the teeth is almost perpendicular to the direction of movement and doesn't slice across the hairs.
The idea, of course is to slant the edge so it slices across the hairs. Slanting either way makes a significant difference. Those teeth are so small that more than ten of them span across the thickness of a hair. So, leading with the tip makes a small difference compared to leading with the heel.
The scything technique is a good technique for minimizing the pain and agony of shaving with a dull razor. With one that's well-honed and stropped, it's an excellent way to build up a good layer of scar tissue as you remove both hair and skin simultaneously. I prefer just to remove the hair, personally. If you don't have to use a scything motion with a double-edge or any other type of razor that we know is truly shaving-sharp in order to get a good, close shave, then you shouldn't have to with your straight razor, either.
A razor can be very, very dull and still cut hair. Heck, you can use a bic disposable for 100 shaves and it will still take off hair, albeit with great discomfort. A good razor should take off hair EASILY and PAINLESSLY. If yours doesn't, don't assume that it's just "supposed to be that way". If you do, you'll end up shaving much more with your Double Edge razors than you will with your straight razors. Shaving with dull razors will ultimately result in you spending a lot more time talking about straight razors than shaving with them.
The barber texts (found in the Help Files under Permanent Archives) recomend a heel leading honing stroke and a toe leading shaving stroke. This is what I employ (albiet less than the recommended 30 degrees) with even a very sharp razor and I find it helps with ease of cutting regardless of how dull the razor is. The duller it is, the more help it needs.
X
Unless you mean a sweeping motion, I have to disagree. And if you are referring specifically to just using the razor in a heel leading or toe leading cut, your opinion flies in the face of well established authority.Quote:
Originally Posted by PapaBull
In fact, the best shaving DEs do use a slanted cut. I'm referring to the Merkur slant.
It's also not true that shaving on a slant will shave your skin. It's very common with DEs, and the large majority of them shave straight on. That's caused by shaving with an extremely sharp edge and not shaving properly with it or not being careful about shaving too close. When you have those extremely sharp edges you need to reduce te blade pressure a lot.
The reason one would over shave when shaving on a slant is that the razor cuts beter and more easily, so you need to lighten up your touch. If you don't, you shave closer than you intend and take a thin layer of skin. In other words, it's not that shaving on a slant creates a problem, it's that it makes your razor shave better, so you need to reduce the effort and take advantage of the more subtle control you gain.
It is not an accident that barbers manuals and similar authorities teach you to shave on a slant. A long time ago I used to go to an old time Italian barber (a master barber) who had the most delicate touch. He told me that that was the secret to gaining the control necessary for a quality shave. He trained his young barbers by requiring them to shave a balloon without breaking it.
when I first read this topic title I thought it was going to be about fishing with your razor :)
Joe, that's what's nice about open discussions. You get all different viewpoints. Barbers had the same arguments, I'm sure. Shave on a slant vs. learning to hone better..... rest the razor 48 hours vs. shaving everyday is OK........ Wedges are better vs. Full hollow grinds.
I know enough professionals in the same field that fight tooth and nail on opposing sides of theories that I know being an authority doesn't make someone right. Two authorities arguing opposing theories can't both be correct.
So I speak from my own experience and I can say unquivocably that a well-honed, well-stropped razor will shave close enough that you can't feel any roughness with your fingers going any direction against the grain without having to use a slashing motion that is much more likely to result in some blood loss. Heel leading, toe leading...... either way... a slicing motion is for slicing and is much more likely to draw blood than a push-cutting motion.
The good thing about learning to shave with a slashing motion is that you can get acceptable shaves without ever learning how to hone a razor particularly well. But you'll probably bleed more often, too. Slicing tends to cut skin pretty easily, which is something that I like to avoid while shaving.
There is a diference in using a slant cut (still a push cut with angled blade) and using a slicing, or "scyting" motion. Scyting can be dangerous if not used correctly, and I think both motions are in advantage to the straight (90o angle) push. The barber's manuals are proposing the slanted push cut as better alternative.
Nenad
I wonder if we're talking about the same thing. I certainly agree that any kind of slashing motion is bad, but a push cut with the blade angled is still a push cut as far as the skin is concerned. It's only the hairs which slide along the slanted edge to which it looks different. They can't slide along that edge with a direct on push.Quote:
Originally Posted by PapaBull
Although you probably could teach me a lot about honing, we can avoid that issue. I even shave with the blade angled with a Feather str8. I think we can agree that a regular str8 will not achieve that sharpness. I haven't experienced an problems with it. In particular, it's still a push cut and I don't see how it could be any more likely to cut you. We're not moving the edge along its length, just applying about a 15 degree tilt. I could shave with (and have shaved with) a straight push cut, but why bother if the angle cut is more comfortable? In other words even if you give a blade the best edge you can, it still cut better on an angle. Why not take advantage of it.
I'll repeat what I said in my last message. I've never seen any baber manual, article etc. that does not recommend the angle cut. If you know of one, please tell me. Otherwise it would appear that it's something they all agree on.