How dull can you make a razor by shaving with too much pressure?

I'm not getting the closeness of shave I should be using WTG and XTG passes, even on the cheeks.

Either I'm not getting the razor sharp enough, or I'm using the wrong angles or pressure, or the BBS with a straight razor is a myth.

Before the straight razor, I used a Gillette Sensor with two passes WTG and one under the chin ATG. This gave a very close shave with a 2-blade safety razor.

Now I use the straight razor WTG & XTG, but then follow with a double-edge safety razor WTG and then under the chin ATG. This results in a close shave.

I know the straight razor is removing hair, because the double-edge shave picks up very little comparatively.

So far I've been concentrating on getting the straight razor sharp enough. Now I'm wondering if the remaining problem is my shaving technique. I've tried to be diligent about the 20-30 degree angle and the lightest pressure, but this hasn't solved the problem.

What I have noticed is that the razor no longer passes the HHT after shaving. Is this typical? Or am I dulling the razor by bad technique?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alethephant

I'm not getting the closeness of shave I should be using WTG and XTG passes, even on the cheeks.

Either I'm not getting the razor sharp enough, or I'm using the wrong angles or pressure, or the BBS with a straight razor is a myth.

Before the straight razor, I used a Gillette Sensor with two passes WTG and one under the chin ATG. This gave a very close shave with a 2-blade safety razor.

Now I use the straight razor WTG & XTG, but then follow with a double-edge safety razor WTG and then under the chin ATG. This results in a close shave.

I know the straight razor is removing hair, because the double-edge shave picks up very little comparatively.

So far I've been concentrating on getting the straight razor sharp enough. Now I'm wondering if the remaining problem is my shaving technique. I've tried to be diligent about the 20-30 degree angle and the lightest pressure, but this hasn't solved the problem.

What I have noticed is that the razor no longer passes the HHT after shaving. Is this typical? Or am I dulling the razor by bad technique?

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Hey Alethephant,

Unfortunately there are many answers to your problem. First, forget about the HHT, as I'm getting the impression that you are getting hung up on it (no pun intended). I've got a few good razors that can't pass the HHT, yet give outstanding shaves; it's just the way it goes.

Second, many factors can lead to a dull or dulling edge, including bad technique, bad stropping and yes, too much pressure.

Third, keep in mind that prep, lather quality and facial stretching will also contribute to a fine, close shave.

I would also suggest that perhaps your razor isn't as sharp as you might think it is. I don't know how many shaves you have under your belt, but am willing to bet that newb technique has something to do with your lack of a close shave. The best thing I can say for now is to please lower your expectations, it will come with time and practice. BBS with a SR is no myth, but it will not happen over night either.

Best regards,

Ryan

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ryan82

The best thing I can say for now is to please lower your expectations, it will come with time and practice. BBS with a SR is no myth, but it will not happen over night either.

Best regards,

Ryan

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Huge +1 Great advice from Ryan there
Comfort first, closeness second, is my motto

I would like to add or inquire,have you had your blade professionally honed to shave ready?If you got it from the factory and they claimed it to be so,I would never trust that.You did say you did an HHT so this might be a redundant question I suppose.Gssixgun or SRD can hone it for you unless you are already experienced with sharpening straight razors. It makes all the difference to have that blade shave ready,on top of what everyone else has suggested.:hmmm::)

Yes, I'm fairly new to this. (< 2 months)

I've honed and stropped the razors I've used myself, and believe that I've mastered this adequately, although this is still an open issue I'm working on. I use an Icebear 6000 Japanese grit waterstone, followed by a Chinese 12000 grit waterstone, then a chromium oxide pasted linen stop and finally Russian leather.

One of the issues I'm trying to deal with is the possibility of not having a sharp edge all along the blade due to warp. I do have several razors, and they all can't have a problem, including new Dovo and new Fromm blades. (The others are from ebay.) I have examined the edges under microscope, and I can't see any obvious defect in honing or polishing.

I use the HHT, because I need an objective test that doesn't involve shaving. I can only shave once a day, and that is the final test. I have noted a distinct correlation between the results of the HHT and the ease of shaving.

Because of lingering doubts about proper sharpness, I have continued to use the pasted strop daily instead of switching to a non-pasted strop. This, I felt, would remediate any final lack of sharpness over time. (The most likely problem with sharpening might be that I don't set a sharp enough edge at the low grit before proceeding.)

My shaving technique has progressed to the point that I can shave my entire face without cutting myself. I have noticed that the sharper the blade, the easier it is to do this.

The reason for starting this thread was that, although my baseline concept was that my sharpness was not yet perfect, it was possible that it was, and that I was dulling the blade immediately by shaving wrong (e.g., too much pressure). If I can eliminate that cause, I can return to the sharpness issue.

The problem with getting a blade externally honed is that, if I'm doing something wrong that dulls the blade (stropping or shaving), then I won't learn much. If I'm only honing wrong, external honing would be useful for differential diagnosis. I've been saving that until I'm confident all other issues are under control.

Things have definitely been improving over the last month, so I suspect they may continue to do so. If they don't, I'll break down and cry "Uncle!" and get an external honing.

Thanks for all the suggestions.

PS. Is there a "Nick-a-derm" aid available that helps you quit buying razors? Somehow I've developed an expensive addiction.

By using a pasted strop all the time, you could be losing your edge if your strop technique is lacking. Someone more senior may correct me but I believe, because the strop is flexible and not rigid like a stone, you can 'round off' your edge with too much pressure. This could happen with a leather strop as well with improper technique but the dulling would be accelerated with a paste.

PS I also use the HHT, not as the ultimate truth, but as a very good indicator! I actually use a chest hair because the hair on my head is too fine and I think a chesty is much closer to my beard (I also have more to spare!)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alethephant

I'm not getting the closeness of shave I should be using WTG and XTG passes, even on the cheeks.

Either I'm not getting the razor sharp enough, or I'm using the wrong angles or pressure, or the BBS with a straight razor is a myth.

Before the straight razor, I used a Gillette Sensor with two passes WTG and one under the chin ATG. This gave a very close shave with a 2-blade safety razor.

Now I use the straight razor WTG & XTG, but then follow with a double-edge safety razor WTG and then under the chin ATG. This results in a close shave.

I know the straight razor is removing hair, because the double-edge shave picks up very little comparatively.

So far I've been concentrating on getting the straight razor sharp enough. Now I'm wondering if the remaining problem is my shaving technique. I've tried to be diligent about the 20-30 degree angle and the lightest pressure, but this hasn't solved the problem.

What I have noticed is that the razor no longer passes the HHT after shaving. Is this typical? Or am I dulling the razor by bad technique?

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Have you ever had a shave ready razor?? The kind that you get back from a honster,that is honed and stropped,and all you have to do is rinse off the oil and shave?? That will give you an idea just what sharp is. Hope this helps

The best thing about sending a razor off to any of our folks that can really hone a razor is it gives you a benchmark to compare your other razors to.
Also never use a pasted strop everyday. You can keep a razor shave ready for months using leather only.
One good thing you can do is get Lynn's video which can help you find any faults in your honing or stropping technique. The very best is to attend one of the meets folks have all over the country and see the masters at work.
Be patient you can get the best shave of your life with a straight and it becomes very enjoyable and even relaxing.
I just remembered that if you check YouTube you can see some of Lynn's honing and stropping videos there.
Good Luck!

I've gotten one razor from someone who claimed they knew what they were doing and that it was "shave-ready". It was much duller than my own work.

I've got Lynn's DVD, and have watched all the YouTube videos.

I keep using the pasted strop, because stropping is the one part I think I've got whipped, and I don't think a few weeks of such stropping will generate excessive wear. I do have to say so far it has not noticeably made a difference on sharpness.

I did find that using black (emery) and white (diamond) pasted canvas works to improve sharpness on razors not passing the HHT or tugging when shaving.

I will have to break down and get a razor honed by someone who is known to do a good job. Besides Lynn Abrams, who might this be?

Never mind: I see in the Classifieds Lynn does honing for a fee. Why use anyone else?

No reason to. Sham is also very good as is Glen.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alethephant

I'm not getting the closeness of shave I should be using WTG and XTG passes, even on the cheeks.

Either I'm not getting the razor sharp enough, or I'm using the wrong angles or pressure, or the BBS with a straight razor is a myth.

Before the straight razor, I used a Gillette Sensor with two passes WTG and one under the chin ATG. This gave a very close shave with a 2-blade safety razor.

Now I use the straight razor WTG & XTG, but then follow with a double-edge safety razor WTG and then under the chin ATG. This results in a close shave.

I know the straight razor is removing hair, because the double-edge shave picks up very little comparatively.

So far I've been concentrating on getting the straight razor sharp enough. Now I'm wondering if the remaining problem is my shaving technique. I've tried to be diligent about the 20-30 degree angle and the lightest pressure, but this hasn't solved the problem.

What I have noticed is that the razor no longer passes the HHT after shaving. Is this typical? Or am I dulling the razor by bad technique?

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I am late to this -- lots of good info has already been passed.

You might reverse things and use the straight to tidy up after a single
pass with your DE.

And yes a razor gets dull in the process of shaving. In most cases
it is fully refreshed with a visit to canvas and leather strops.

If it is not getting fully refreshed try lowering the angle when shaving and or
adding a pasted strop (sub micron abrasive)... to the process.

The key questions center on if the razor is good to shave sharp (no HHT stuff)
after stropping and if the razor is having trouble lasting a full shave.

Barbers had no problem with stropping a razor in the middle of a shave.
Barbers would also have a row of razors to select from as needed.

I often go "presidential" and use a couple razors for a shave. I got in
the habit when learning to hone of laying out the newly honed and
stropped razor with a backup or two. In the process I discovered that
my chin likes a fresh edge and no mater how sharp the first razor was
the comfort of a second blade for that last final bit of chin was
important to me.

And yes a BBS is a myth. NO man with whiskers has a face
as smooth as a baby's behind.... having said this a good smooth
shave is still possible. In the end it is whiskers .vs. steel and
the open blade of a straight razor is still steel .vs. whiskers.

The advantage of a straight is also a disadvantage. A straight is
the most 'adjustable' of all the razors. You can adjust the
sharpness and smoothness on hones and strops. You can adjust
the angle any way you want.... with skill you can get a delux
shave from a straight. The crux of it is that while learning
a lot of shaves will be suboptimal.

Since you get good shaves from a DE take advantage of it
and set it out with your str8 (team work). You can tidy up the
hard bits with the DE and shave the easy bits with the str8.
With practice things will reverse (did for me) you will find that
one day you reach for the str8 to tidy up after the DE.

IMO, Bottom line there is no magic in any razor..... and
there are no shortcuts that I know of (yet).

And... "latherin" is key. Take a full three min getting your
face and lather ready no mater what blade you select. Use
one of those little sand egg timers so you do not short change
yourself on this critical step.

Lynn is the Man for sure. Like he says "his blades are sweet" . And they is yep. Good luck mate and keep us posted on the progress.:gl:

Don't listen to that man behind the curtain!!! BBS IS NOT A MYTH:argue:

My $0.02:

1. I haven't used the 6k Icebear, but I'd recommend getting either a Norton 4/8k or a dedicated bevel-setting stone in the 1-3k range.

2. Choose a razor that tests "flat" with the marker test, then work on your honing progression with just that one until you're getting good shaves out of it.

Agreed BBS is not a myth at all. We watched Lynn restore a razor at the Mid Mo Meet and by the time he finished and honed it up it would give a BBS shave. He was gracious enough to allow us to shave with any of his razors at the meet and his Mastro Livi's are certainly BBS sharp and comfortable!!!

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Originally Posted by niftyshaving

And yes a BBS is a myth. NO man with whiskers has a face
as smooth as a baby's behind....

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I stand corrected, sir, as you are quite right.... there is no way I could get my face as smooth as my 17 month old son's bottom :hmmm:

Seriously though, in the realm of wet shaving the so-called "BBS" shave is entirely possible with practice and experience. A beginner will obsess about having the skill to achieve BBS every shave - until you get it down pat and then only shoot for BBS on special occasions :roflmao

It's just the way it goes...

Honestly though I don't expect or require a BBS shave every time I shave. Most of the time it feels and looks just fine without that close a shave.

Today I conducted a final experiment. I used my "Sunday" razor, a Dozo Astrale, which I've honed the sharpest I can. After stropping, it cut hairs anywhere along its length without having to drag the hair. I think this is what 'shave ready' means.

I then tried to use all the advice for a close shave: Extra care on lather (except I wasn't using my best soap), tension while shaving and only light pressure. I shaved WTG, XTG and ATG in some places. I used a different, duller (in terms of the HHT) razor on the left side. Then I rinsed my face and felt my face.

I have to say that the right side with the sharpest razor was about as clean as I have obtained before with the safety razor (WTG twice and ATG under the chin). The left side was noticeably worse. Also, shaving with the sharp razor was a real pleasure, as it seemed difficult to cut myself, even around and over the chin, under the lip and around the mouth (both WTG and ATG).

After shaving, I tested the Dovo again with the HHT. It clearly wasn't as sharp as when I started. It still cut hairs, but I had to drag the hair once or twice before it cut. It wasn't effortless as it was in the beginning.

So (duh!):

1) Keeping skin taut makes a closer shave.
2) Having a very sharp razor is the sine qua non for shaving.
3) A razor dulls during shaving, more if you do it wrong.

Not too much surprise here, except in 3), which was the reason I started this thread. Just as you can dull a blade by improper stropping, you can dull one by improper shaving.

Now that I'm confident that 1) Yes, you can easily get a close shave with a SE alone, and 2) I know I can hone/strop a razor sharp enough, and 3) shaving can dull a razor, then I will continue by sharpening my razors to the same degree of the HHT result as it was here, and I will try to minimize the pressure I use during shaving.

The hardest part of shaving appears to be maintaining an angle, as this seems to have to vary around the mouth.

Thanks for all the feedback, which helped me focus and what appeared to be the right issues. I'll keep you updated as I develop more empirical evidence.

Good deal I'm glad it worked out well for you. Believe me we all have gone through something similar when we started with a straight. One thing some people do especially those with dense stiff beards is halfway through the shave they strop the razor just a few strokes to bring it back to the condition it was when they started.

Yes, I did that at the beginning once or twice.

However, I'd rather fix the way I'm shaving than remediate it. I've already been using a DE after the straight razor, and I'd like to dispense with that.

My goal with straight razors is to master the art, not solve a shaving problem. I can get a close shave with safety razors or DE razors already. The tricks of the trade are what make straight razor shaving interesting to me (honing, stropping, shaving, lathering, etc.). I'm also keenly interested in why things work or don't work, not just being able to do the activity right. Perhaps different motivation than others here.

PS. My wife calls Straight Razor Place the "Whiskers Club".

Actually your not so different than many of us. If you read some of the post in assorted areas like honing or stropping you'll see a lot of information being passed around figuring out why certain hones work the way they do on certain types of steel. There are probably more members with microscopes than most hospitals have just to analyze edge geometry! So, believe me your in good company with like minded persons:-)

Yes, I seen a number of people making such posts. I just didn't know what % of the people here fall into that class.

I have several microscopes myself. Other than taking pictures to document flaws, I haven't been able to get much use out of them. Perhaps I'll learn that after I've got more experience with what to look for and how to judge what I see.

What I would really like to do is to make an instrumented version of the HHT that uses standard reference material thread and a test jig to measure force to cut, or functions as a go/no go test. This would allow a quantitative measure of cutting sharpness.

Right now I've been using my wife's hair, which is pretty uniform, and drag it longitudinally along the blade. If it won't cut at all, experience indicates that the blade is too dull to shave with. If it takes several passes, it's still too dull. If it takes a 1/2" or so movement, it will shave, but not close. If it cuts the instant you touch, and does so at multiple points along the edge, then it's ready for shaving. This is presently a semi-quantitative test, and is sufficient to test when honing is complete. Testing by shaving unfortunately has a 24 hr lag time associated with it, even though it is a full-up test.

What I've found is that a blade gets sharp in some places but not in others. This is obviously due to warp (frown? smile?). This seems to take the most repeat honing to get rid of. I'm not sure, but I'm getting the impression that pasted strops are better for this kind of problem, as they match the blade shape better than a rigid stone does. Of course, the stone makes the blade match it, so perhaps it's better to hone with a stone in the long run.

I have not yet got into honing but if you want a true shave ready razor Lynn is the man I send all my razors to him.

Try Robert Williams website for some technical type information as well as practical advice. Robert Williams Custom Straight Razors

We can also get to caught up in the technical aspects of the hobby as well. This hobby is so multi faceted you can't leave out good old practice and muscle memory when honing. Many times when you have a razor with an uneven edge with part sharp and part dull it's a problem with your stroke on the hone. Or perhaps the hone needs lapping to get it back to a very flat surface. I know I've done it and I imagine most anyone who has honed has at one time or another. One thing I have to constantly remind myself is not to put pressure on the razor. It seems to make sense that the more pressure the better the amount of steel removed but actually you never get a good edge with anything but a light stroke. Of course this is after the bevel is set.
Pasted strops work very very well on blades that need only minor work after honing but in some cases an uneven blade edge demands you redo the bevel. Every razor has it's own personality which is why practice and experience are so important to know from that experience what needs to be done to complete the edge.

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Originally Posted by nessmuck

Don't listen to that man behind the curtain!!! BBS IS NOT A MYTH:argue:

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Not not a myth except in the most literal sense.
Dads know... Moms know...

It is also true that some times a thick mustard
yellow balm can be found on some BB and if
you apply it as a skin conditioner you too can
have a BBSmooooth Face...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alethephant

Right now I've been using my wife's hair, which is pretty uniform, and drag it longitudinally along the blade. If it won't cut at all, experience indicates that the blade is too dull to shave with. If it takes several passes, it's still too dull. If it takes a 1/2" or so movement, it will shave, but not close. If it cuts the instant you touch, and does so at multiple points along the edge, then it's ready for shaving. This is presently a semi-quantitative test, and is sufficient to test when honing is complete. Testing by shaving unfortunately has a 24 hr lag time associated with it, even though it is a full-up test.

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If your razor is getting close simply schedule to do the shave tests when a relatively easily shaveable part of your face isn't BBS ATG. You can have shaved that part of your face that very day, turning a disadvantage of your current shaving situation into an advantage for testing it's shaving status with the most perfect test possible.