Advice on Possibly Upgrading My Razor and Strop or Learning to Hone

I know my answers can be found in bits and pieces of threads, but I haven't found exactly what I'm looking for. I started shaving with a straight earlier this year, and I've progressed to shaving WTG, XTG, and ATG with no cuts. However, I'm beginning to think that either my razor is dull, my razor is just a poor brand/model, and/or I need a better strop. I purchased my razor from Whipped Dog as a cheap $25 shave-ready and his poor-man strop which is a simple piece of leather that I have tied around my doorknob. The razor is an old George Wostenholm and Sons IXL 4/8 hollow ground, and I have approx. 40 complete-face passes on it. So I have some questions for you senior members, but I'll explain my shaving technique first.

Preshave: I wet me face with warm water several times within a 10 minute period before shaving as I strop and build a lather.

Shaving: First off, I've had these results almost since day one, so I have not noticed that the razor went from performing better to worse. No matter how I experiment with angle and stroke length, one WTG pass on my cheeks leaves noticeable stubble and some remaining whiskers--especially in areas that I can only reach with the toe of the blade. The XTG pass leaves stubble but no protruding whiskers, and the ATG pass leaves a clean-looking face but not BBS. The way my neck hair grows, I can only do two downward XTG passed and then one upward ATG-XTG pass which leaves things smooth. However, the razor painfully tugs like heck on my neck when going ATG even after the two downward XTG passes, and I think there is more drag than should be on the WTG passes on my cheeks. I get tugging ATG on my cheeks too. My neck often gets razor burn near the center. I have no other razor for comparison, nor have I ever witnessed someone in person straight shave for comparison. I apply no additional pressure to the blade other than what's needed to hold it to my skin, and I stretch the skin very tightly. I'm using Bald Frog shaving soap lathered in a scuttle that seems to be doing a fine job of lubricating and soothing. I usually shave every other day, as shaving every day irritates my neck area quite a bit.

So for my questions:

1. With the shaving results I've described, do you think now that I've acquired a feel for the techniques of shaving it's time for me to get a better make/model razor and strop? My intent in only spending $25 on a shave-ready razor and $14 on a cheap strop was to see if I liked straight shaving before spending more money on better equipment; I do like it, and I would like to get to where I can have a comfortable shave without cringing as I shave my neck.

2. I would like to be able to hone my own blades, so do you think instead of spending money on a reputable blade and strop I should purchase a 4K/8K Norton hone and learn on my current blade. I have my great grandfather's Diamond King razor touch-up hone which is unmarked for grit but very fine (comes in an elaborate aluminum box). Will this work as the final stone, or will I need a pasteboard strop?

Money is somewhat tight right now, but I'm comfortable spending the $100 for the Norton 4K/8K stone and a prep/slurry stone. If I get another razor, I'd be looking into a quality refurbished vintage. I'd also be looking for a quality strop. That being said, I'd rather spend the $100 for honing tools than the $250+ for a razor and strop, but I'm concerned that even with a good hone this razor isn't going to perform as a razor should.

Any opinions on what might be the issue(s) with my setup or what the next step might be to get me a better, more comfortable shave is greatly appreciated. I'm planning on straight shaving for the rest of my life, so I know that the money I spend now on quality components is a good investment. I'm just not certain which step to take next. Thanks!

A pic of the razor ????

A razor should never painfully pull your whiskers, if it does...STOP. Something is wrong. Bad shave prep or a dull razor. A 4/8 razor is easy to "roll the edge". Wostenholm razors are good razors, but I have never seen a 4/8 Wosty...pic please.

You need 2-3 razors so that if you were to drop one or need to send it off for honing you can still shave. I would recommend another razor to start with & maybe a barber hone. You should be able to pick up a properly honed razor (I recommend a 5/8 or 6/8 razor) and a barber hone for under $100. Check the classified's here as I saw some razors there in the proper price range for beginners.

It sounds to me like you don't have anything to refresh your edge (like a pasted strop barber hone etc - correct?), and with 40 shaves it is likely dull. Perhaps there's a SRP member close by who could help you get her back into shaving form. A Norton 4/8 is one of the best investments you could make, but for now you should get that blade honed and concentrate on shaving and stropping technique IMO. Don't forget that you'll need a lapping stone to flatten the Norton - the DMT 8C is another great investment.

Back to question 1. If you feel you're in this for life you should go ahead and upgrade to a better razor and strop. Yes, most of the time it's the Indian and not the arrow, but I do think you'll notice a difference with better gear.

Just my $0.02

EDIT: I missed the part about your great grandfather's hone. I hesitate to say whether it's good or bad. Perhaps posting a pic of the stone will help to determine if it will bring your edge back....

You don't describe you post-shave practice. Personally it's a cold water wash, alum, a minute or two, post-shave creme, several minutes and then some Vitamin E moisturizer.

If you have the Poor Man Strop, a balsa paddle and some cro-ox one one side and a red side should have been included. Try some passes on the balsa to freshen the edge. Or try Gramp's hone to freshen. Do a half dozen passes at first and then shave. If it helps a little, do a half dozen more and shave again. See if that helps. It's not likely that the strop is the problem, it's the lack of maintenance.

Look for a second razor in the 5/8, 6/8 range. A second razor allows you to keep both edges fresher longer and a different size may help you as a teaching tool.

In short, use the the strop you have, learn to do some biweekly maintenance and spend your money on a second razor that been professionaly honed.

Get another razor maybe with a drifferent grind. Send out the other to get honed. Get some pre shave creme or oil. Get a barbers hone for touch ups.
I always start my shave with a hot shower. Apply pre shave. Strop razor. Make lather. Shave half my face. Reapply lather. Shave other half of face. Reapply lather. Then do my ATG or XTG passes.

Colin

My two cents is that the norton's a good hone to learn on. It's a good hone to master, and it can be the last hone you buy.

If you budget out a good chunk of a free day with a norton in front of you and an internet-connected computer off to your side, you ought to be able to figure it out. "It" being honing an undamaged razor, that is. The internet is overrun with videos, walkthroughs, tutorials (etc.) on using the Norton. It takes practice and a steady hand, to be sure. If you're unable or unwilling to provide each of those, then you'd best send it out.

If you want to give it a go yourself, start with this thought: You know what a razor that pulls feels like, so anything sharper than that should be an improvement. Test the razor now on your arm hair and remember well the results. Test it at skin level and test it above the skin. Using the info on the internet you ought to be able to make it sharper than that.

Optionally, go ahead and buy a "shave-ready" second razor somewhere so you can (1) continue shaving if you can't figure honing out in time; and (2) have something to compare your results to.

I don't think you need to buy a new strop if yours already works, but do what makes you happy!

Best of luck.

There's a lot of information in your replies for which I was looking and am grateful. Keep them coming please. I've attached photos of the razor and hone for identification and opinions on the blade's edge.

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Originally Posted by shooter74743

A 4/8 razor is easy to "roll the edge". Wostenholm razors are good razors, but I have never seen a 4/8 Wosty...pic please.

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This Wostenholm isn't a factory 4/8 but appears that Larry from Whipped Dog had to grind it down that far to get back the edge. It was one of his $25 sight-unseen razors with handle flaws and blade visual blemishes, so I didn't expect much other than something on which to learn. Thanks for the classifieds heads-up. I've posted pictures of the razor below for everyone's inspection.

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Originally Posted by DGilloon

If you have the Poor Man Strop, a balsa paddle and some cro-ox one one side and a red side should have been included. Try some passes on the balsa to freshen the edge. . . . It's not likely that the strop is the problem, it's the lack of maintenance.

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I purchased only the leather strop and opted out of the balsa wood paddle and paste. Would you please elaborate on what you mean by biweekly maintenance? If I am stropping 40 passes before every shave, cleaning off any soap and water from the razor before storing, and storing it in a dry place, what else should I be doing for weekly razor maintenance?

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Originally Posted by jaswarb

REALLY do yourself a favor and leave the honing out of the mix for the time being. Think about that in a few months and spend your money on a good razor.

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Part of me knows full well that this is good advice, yet part of me struggles against the thought of having to send out the razor and spend money having it honed that could be put toward the honing equipment. That being said, maybe it's money well spent to get a better shave-ready razor and the honing equipment to learn to hone on my current razor.

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Originally Posted by Jimbo7

Optionally, go ahead and buy a "shave-ready" second razor somewhere so you can (1) continue shaving if you can't figure honing out in time; and (2) have something to compare your results to.

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I like this idea, but I'll have to weigh my options. I've watched a few videos on honing and am not scared away or against taking the time to learn, and I'm not unfamiliar with delicate work similar to honing from my past careers and hobbies. Looks like fun.

Hone Dimensions: 5.5" x 2" x 7/16" Case has the same emblem and writing pressed into the lid as seen on the inside paper label.
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...g/100_2621.jpg

I hope these razor shots are the correct angles for looking at the edge. Let me know if I need to take better pictures.

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...g/100_2624.jpg

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...g/100_2628.jpg

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...g/100_2630.jpg

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...g/100_2635.jpg

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Originally Posted by Annixter

Part of me knows full well that this is good advice, yet part of me struggles against the thought of having to send out the razor and spend money having it honed that could be put toward the honing equipment. That being said, maybe it's money well spent to get a better shave-ready razor and the honing equipment to learn to hone on my current razor.

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How are you going to judge your progress as you learn to hone if you don't have a sharp razor? You are learning to shave and learning to hone simultaneously so is it the honing or the shaving the cause of your not having a good shave?:shrug:

IF you can't strop well enough to keep your already shave ready razor shave ready what is the point of adding the confusion of learning to hone?:confused:

If you have a shave ready razor it would be odd for your to send it out for honing more often than every few months. The cost is insignificant.:rock:

There is at least one member in the classifieds who offers to hone any razor you buy from him 3 times. He usually offers superior razors at beginners prices and they are gone in a day or two.:rock:

Slow down and smell the lather. :beer2:

:rant: Get a sharp razor, learn to strop it correctly to keep it sharp, learn to shave with it until you have consistently comfortable shaves, and then approach honing with all the issues it will bring to the table.

:soapbox:Or not just jump in and figure it all out as you go along and re-invent the wheel which has been rolling along for centuries. Oh by the way YourMilageMayVary it probably will mine did.


It really does just keep getting better.

Annixter...Here's my take on the best and cheapest way to arrive at a quality shave (I'm an attorney so it is in our nature to boil things down to the most useful parts): I, personally, would skip the Norton and go right for the BBW & Coticule Combo stone ( thesuperiorshave.com/Coticules.html). It may cost you a little more but it is worth it. It's all I use to hone my razors - having retired all the other useless junk. In addition. I then run it abt. 10 passes on chrox (green) paste and abt 3 passes on a homemade balsa with feet diamond spray on felt rig that works just dandy. Then, I do a couple of laps across my felt (not so much to "even" the blade up as id often discussed, rather simply to remove the prior paste. Then 50 laps on leather...but if you have the time, 100 would be nicer. And get yourself a great razor. Don't just buy one, study them. I have a "small" collection by most standards - - abt. maybe 2 dozen or so. But truthfully, my rotation is kinda like this: I use [both] my Holzhauers often they [the 5/8 & the 7/8] always hone up exceptionally sharp (scary sharp!). Next in line is my 7/8 Hart. I love it. And I am very fond of my RW Purist. The Purist being a "near" perfect razor [the next time I come across one I'm not going to go for the square point when it's offered in a round point {my misatke, I'll eat it}. But make no mistake, the RW is more than just a razor, it is a functional piece of art (Bravo to RW!!!). I also occasionally use a beautifully restored Wostenholm by yours truly. It gives a great shave and I love it for its age and beauty. In nay event sir, you would be hard pressed to go wrong buying a razor from this site that would do you wrong. Just put aside your beliefs as to what size razor might be most comfortable on your face. For example, I'm a small to med size man. I'm abt. 5'5" and weigh abt. 160. Small face, for the most part. Naturally, following the advice herein I tended to gravitate to the thinner lighter used models. Ads surprisingly, I am much more comfortable with the oversized cleavers. So good luck buwanna!

Everyone's going to have different opinions, and no-one knows what your beard's like in comparison to theirs, so it's all subjective, but...

I'd get a Norton 4/8. I actually think one can learn to hone without TOO many problems if you take it easy. Seriously, I am a really inept user of tools and I didn't find it too hard; though I had two razors...

Actually, you need everything you've spoken of, really. You need another razor, a hone and possibly another strop. You say you've wrapped the strop around a door knob. Is it even when honing? Check that it's not buckling, as if it is the razor's edge won't touch it completely all the way along.

I don't think you can really tell how good an edge is from a photo, though it might help to show damage or a warp, etc. I don't know enough about honing to judge that edge, but it does look to me that your razor has some hone wear.

The good thing about a Norton 4/8 and such is that you can use almost a formula to start off with the honing.

It could be you have a really tough beard. But other than the easy to see difference in one another's closeness of hairs, I don't think we really know a lot about COARSENESS or hardness of hair; unless we go around feeling each other's faces, which I don't...

All you really know is what works for you and what you like. So get a hone, get a good strop (IF your strop is curved or damaged only) and get a second razor (shave ready) if you can. Then experiment on your face!

If the razor left stubblefrom day one, I would hesitantly say that it wasn't sharp enough.

If you decided to stick with it, I'd suggest getting a second razor. I'd also suggest to upgrade your strop to a quality one, as a good strop is necessary to get a good edge. A good vintage strop is nice, but most require fixing up, so I'd suggest getting a high quality new one (from a reputable vendor and manufacturer) to actually use (carefully) before shaving next to perhaps some practice stropping on the one you have.

About the razor: besides it not being a beauty queen, there doesn't seem to be anything inherently wrong with it (as far as I can tell from the pictures). Wostenholm made razors until into the 20th century, so I would frankly be astounded if they HADN'T made any 4/8 razors. Yours might as well have been one originally, but based on the etching on the blade face I'd estimate it at having been around a 5/8 or a 6/8. I've never heard anything bad about any Wostenholm from any period, so I don't doubt that your razor is of good quality. But getting a second one is always a good idea.

Until you get anything new, I'd suggest you follow DGilloon's advice to either use the pastes (I have never used any pastes, though, so I can't really give advice on how or what) or use your grandfather's barber's hone. What I have done in the past when I still had and used a barber's hone was spread a little lather on top and give it about ten to fifteen forward X-strokes, followed by a good stropping.

As for shaving, try telling yourself while shaving "Use less pressure". After about 1.5 years, I still find I sometimes need to tell myself.
Another tip I noticed that will greatly reduce irritation is to never stretch your skin in both directions. What I mean with this is that when shaving in your neck area, try not to stretch your skin by tilting your head too much, just get it taut. Try to stretch with your hands in the opposite direction your stubble grows (and also that not too tight). Low angle, low pressure and effective stretching of the skin are three key ingredients for a painless shave, and it will take time to get thoroughly acquainted with them.

Just start with getting another razor that is shave ready and then go from there.
It's all good advice above but the first step is another razor.

The pictures appear to show an uneven edge - if this is so, it will not be easy to hone the razor yourself. Your description of the effects of each shaving pass indicate that the razor is just not sharp enough so my advice would be to invest in a better razor that has been professionally honed so that you have a starting point of excellence to measure against. A close up of your strop will, I'm sure, generate more advice on whether it is up to the job.

Okay, sage advice all around and much appreciated. I've gone ahead and purchased a shave-ready vintage razor from stimpy52, and based off his reputation I trust it's a very nice razor like he says--that unused c.1900 German Montgomery Ward's 5/8 hollow in the classifieds.

As for the "poor man" strop, the way it hangs no matter where I hang it potentially causes distortion by design because it hangs from the center alone with no bar going through the entire width; the problem of which I've always been wary is that there's no handle of any sort on it, so I must wrap the end around my index finger, pinch with my thumb against the palm, and pull taut. This doesn't create a completely even pull like a metal bar for a D ring or leather handle would create, so added with the weight bearing on the center at the mounting point, there's some cupping that appears to flatten out as I strop. I knew the strop would be lacking in some ways because it was a $14 piece of leather, but I didn't want to jump into the deep end before I knew if I liked the water. I don't mean to judge Larry's design or anything of the sort, as others have had success with the poor man strop.

This all being said, I've made my nicking and technique mistakes on the strop and feel confident in my ability to not damage a good one. Since I just spent money on another, nicer razor, I went ahead and took advantage of a sale, purchasing an SRD 3" Premium I strop. Members here give it good reviews, so it's a starting point to hopefully keep the new razor well maintained.

As for honing, I'll keep my eye on Whipped Dog for a deal on a Norton setup, and I like the idea of eventually purchasing a 4K/8K Norton, a Norton prep stone, and a DMT 325. I think I might hold off on sending out my current razor for sharpening until I can purchase the honing setup. That way I have a razor on which to practice. Even if it will be a difficult task because of the uneven edge that UKRob warns about above, I feel more comfortable practicing on it than the new razor when its turn comes.

Thanks again for all the input, links, and references. The consensus is for me to get a better razor, which I've done, and I now have a nice strop to complete the setup in the event that the old strop is questionable. With these nice items, I'll at least be able to say it's not the equipment but the operator.:D I'll hold off on getting into honing for a couple months until I have the gear, and I'm sure I'll be asking questions in the honing section when that time comes.

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Originally Posted by Annixter

I'll keep my eye on Whipped Dog for a deal on a Norton setup, and I like the idea of eventually purchasing a 4K/8K Norton, a Norton prep stone, and a DMT 325.

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If you are at all interested in honing please do yourself a favour and save up and buy the real deal. There is very little point in buying chunks of formerly-larger hones only to buy the full size later. Your razors, wallet and hour glass will thank you for it later.

Just curious--have you been in touch with Larry about the razor you bought from him? He's a stand-up guy, and if there's a problem, he'd want to make it right. He's honed most of my razors, and I've been really happy with his work.

I think when you're first starting out, the best way to learn to strop without tearing your strop up is to lay it flat on a countertop and strop with it laid out like that. You'll learn what lightest contact of the edge on the leather really feels like, your chances of rolling the edge are greatly reduced, and you'll master the flip. You'll also have to go slow, which will greatly reduce your chances of nicking your strop.

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Originally Posted by Durhampiper

Just curious--have you been in touch with Larry about the razor you bought from him? He's a stand-up guy, and if there's a problem, he'd want to make it right. He's honed most of my razors, and I've been really happy with his work.

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No, I haven't contacted Larry mainly because I've waited so long to come to the conclusion that something isn't working for me. At first, I wasn't sure if my technique was poor, my beard hair very tough, my stropping technique lacking, the remaining stubble and tugging was normal, etc., so I didn't want to bother him early on. With his reputation, I assumed when he said shave-ready and tested meant just that--which it very well may have. There's a chance I destroyed the edge when I first stropped before my second shave, although I'm not sure if bungling a single strop would dull the edge to the results I've described from the start. Now 40 shaves in the only thing I would expect him to do is offer to hone the razor for his regular price, which would only be fair on his part. Now I have a dull razor worthy of practice on the hone once I get one, so things will work out.

As for your stropping advice, I wish I had read and followed it four months ago. I have the flip technique down well, and I can keep the blade nice and flat the entire stroke with no pressure applied. When learning the flip, on the draw back toward me I occasionally flipped the blade to push away and then kept it moving toward me edge-leading for the shortest moment. Five mistakes like this early on have left about one inch of the strop near the handle end nicked to where I had to move up the useable area. I now have resolved that particular mistake thanks to some SRP videos instructing to make sure the spine is moving in the leading direction before dropping the edge. I'm at no barber's speed, but I get a nice sound and feel from stopping and haven't nicked the leather in over three months (pounding on wood as I say this!).

I'm really looking forward to the new razor and strop. If I've been able to get a good three-stage shave with no nicks or cuts with my current razor, I hope transitioning to a sharp razor will be easy. I know I'll have to watch out for the spike point because I've had the pleasure of learning with a round point, and the couple nicks I've sustained occurred at the earlobes from overshooting my intended WTG side-burn pass when my hand obstructs the view.

Holy Moly! I received my gorgeous new razor, and that was the best shave I've ever had. I used the same prep and soap as always, and all it took was me allowing the weight of my hand to draw down the blade. In one WTG pass of my entire face I was left with a shave that I could only get after a WTG, XTG, and ATG shave with the old razor pictured above. No pulling anywhere, and my neck felt like slicing through butter. The sound this blade makes too is much more "tinging" and resonant than the old blade. My goodness the difference a sharp blade makes. And I really like the spike point too for trimming around my ears and van dyke.

For any novices out there who might stumble across this, take others' advice that there should be absolutely NO pulling or resistance as the ultimate truth. I just wish I had posted my concerns earlier, but I'm also glad I had to learn different angle and direction techniques to make the dull razor work for forty shaves because I now feel like I have much better control of the process.

I'm still waiting on the new strop from SRD, so here's to hoping can keep this puppy sharp.

That's excellent news! You're so right about the no pulling or resistance. BTW, I know you're getting another strop, but have you thought of modifying your other one? I wouldn't think it'd be too hard to get a couple of D rings and rivet (or get riveted by a bookmaker) each of the ends. Another idea might be to make a paddle strop. Based on what you say it might be best to use it with the leather laid flat on a table or bench top.

The razor sounds nice, I wouldn't mind seeing a photo :-)

Carl