Stainless blades

I picked up my first stainless steel straight. Dovo en vogue, I think it is, with the zebra/damascus looking blade. Took longer obviously to get a really nice edge. But it came around and popped hanging hair easily, and ran great across the finger nail. Ok, time to shave and what a different feel from the start. I can really notice just how stiff the blade is. Actually not pleasant. Shave easily, clean after one pass, but a harsh fell to it. Only shaved twice with it twice, so I will give some more time.

Any one else get this sort of feed back from their stainless? Any suggestions? Yes I know I could get rid of it. My collection is pushing beyond.. Should I expect this response from all stainless razors?

Charlie in Reno

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Originally Posted by Cgm

Any one else get this sort of feed back from their stainless? Should I expect this response from all stainless razors?

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No, but you can expect a less than stellar shave from dragging a shave ready edge across your thumbnail. The TNT is meant for the bevel setting stage and that's it. You'll ruin a fine edge by doing it further down the honing progression. Before getting rid of the razor I'd suggest rehoning the Dovo back to it's full potential and you'll likely find it more to your liking.

Funny,

That is actually what I am doing. I will give it another swing tonight. Maybe ot is just me, but the blade felt real hard against the face too. Trust me, I have a few shaves behind me a straight. And I know stainless is harder then the carbon, but did not imagine I would feel it on my face. Tonight will be the test with a very sharp blade. My scope does not lie about the edge.

Cgm, Reno

Another thing that might have happened is the blade was not quite dialed in even though it was passing the HHT

As far as shaving goes you should not be able to feel any difference between a stainless blade and a carbon steel. if you do the stainless is not shave ready. A harsh feeling is a common clue something is amiss with the blade.

I started with a stainless steel Dovo and now have over 10 shavers in the rotation. What I find with the stainless steel is that they like finishers more than the carbon steel. I can feel more of a difference between them from the 16K shapton trough CBN & diamond spray progression. The Carbons improve very little after the 16k, the stainless enough to not want to shave until they are dialed in with the sprays. After that, they give good comfortable shaves. What I like about the stainless steel blades ( and planning on getting more) is that they don't improve much on the pre stropping routine, like the carbons, even after weeks of no use.
Take a carbon after 30 days of just sitting there shave half a cheek without stropping, strop, now shave the other half. I notice a very distinct difference, specially on the Westolholm I have tried it on. Do the same with my Dovo stainless and there is a "maybe" perceive slight improvement. The Dovo is my go to when I want to cut time on the pre strop routine.
Having said that, my most comfortable shaves comes from the Westolholm (carbon steel).

Double O

Theoretically the stainless and carbon equivalent in terms of edge potential. When dialed in properly, there really should be no difference between them. However, with that said, I own both types and consider the stainless a bit more of a challenge to reach full potential. This usually means a bit more time on the stones, the CrO, and the leather than would be required with carbon. This is only anecdotal experience; but, I think is is consistent with what others on this forum have reported. My preference is carbon steel. So much for theories. :)

Hey all,

Glad to report that once the stainless was honed good, then stropped on a few different grades and it shaved great. And the thing of it is, I think I can better the blade even more. So it has won a spot on my team of 70+ razors, (still growing). And yes one of my best is all so a wosten plain jane. When I use it I have to reach up and check my face to verify that it is cutting because I feel absolutely nothing, it is that smooth. I have a meat cleaver wade butcher for barbers use that is totally mint and it also shaves with out any effort. I got a steal on it, grouped with 3 other razors also in great shape all for $30 bucks at a gun show.

I love collecting more and more, but I have spent some greenbacks in the process. Hell, there won't be a armored truck at my funeral!

I've wanted to try a stainless blade for some time. I get the best DE shaves with stainless, so I wonder if I'll have the same with a SE?

I have only one razor so far and it's stainless. I'm interested in others' opinions on the different traits. But my reason is that I'm not particularly meticulous and I know that with a Carbon steel blade I'd eventually leave some part of the razor wet and unprotected, buggering the edge far worse than any slight difference in materials might do.

Nubo, you don't have to baby carbon steel just make sure it's dry and don't store it in the bathroom or anywhere it will be bobarded with constant humidity. I can't remember the last time I oiled my carbon blades, I just dry them well, leave them out while I dress, and put them up when I leave the house.

I am so lucky to live in NV. I could leave my razor wet when I was done and it would be completely dry in ten minutes, looking as new as the day it was purchased!

Ok, I have picked up a another stainless just yesterday. I have a new Dovo Master's coming in. I will let you all know how that one carves turkey.

Friodur steel should be as good as any carbon steel. Can anyone verify that?

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Originally Posted by Jock

Friodur steel should be as good as any carbon steel. Can anyone verify that?

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Some would say better lol. IME Friodurs are fine blades and shave right up there with the best carbon blades. I'm not sure I'd say they're better, but defintely not any worse.

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Originally Posted by Cgm

And I know stainless is harder then the carbon, but did not imagine I would feel it on my face.

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Just a technicality but stainless razors are 'tougher' rather than 'harder'. They would usually be tempered like a 'softer' carbon steel razor. SS is abrasion resistant tho so can take a little bit more honing.

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Originally Posted by Ryan82

Some would say better lol. IME Friodurs are fine blades and shave right up there with the best carbon blades. I'm not sure I'd say they're better, but defintely not any worse.

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Good to know, since I'm bidding on one

The metallurgists on this forum may take issue with characterizing stainless or carbon as "harder" or "tougher" than another. The formulations and characteristics of stainless or carbon steel are complex and dependent upon many alloying factors not the least of which is the tempering process.

I know less about the exact composition of my SR steel than I do my hunting and pocket knives, but there are some key physical characteristics needed to make a good razor. That main two are HARDNESS and TOUGHNESS. Hardness, like the Rockwell standard, is a measure of compression taken with a very hard probe. Most knives and razors come in at 57-62 Rockwell. Most of our razors come in at this level. This is actually one of the easier parameters to achieve by way of heat treating, and it is hardness that determines potential sharpness. But too much can make it too brittle resulting in a very fine edge that breaks off like glass while shaving. Toughness, is a measure of flexibility (to bend and return to its original form). This is a very important parameter for retaining a fine edge while shaving. This is accomplished by tempering. The process comes after the HIGH heat hardening step by reheating to a lower temperature ~400-1200 F depending on the alloy, followed by a quenching quick cool in water, oil, dry ice (stainless), or even wet mud (Japanese). Dovo and Thiers Issard quench carbon blades in a 1200 F degree bath of liquid lead.

Both carbon and stainless can exhibit excellent hardness and toughness. But in general, stainless is more likely to snap when bent due to the chrome alloy, although today's stainless alloys are much more resistant to breaking than in the past. Carbon can generally be made much tougher than stainless and is the preferred alloy for tool steel. Laminated or Damascus carbon steel knives are incredibly tough able to be bent to 90 degrees without breaking.

If made properly, both stainless and carbon steel can exhibit ideal properties for a SR with stainless having the additional advantage of rust resistances.

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Originally Posted by tiddle

Nubo, you don't have to baby carbon steel just make sure it's dry and don't store it in the bathroom or anywhere it will be bobarded with constant humidity. I can't remember the last time I oiled my carbon blades, I just dry them well, leave them out while I dress, and put them up when I leave the house.

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Aye, there's the rub. I can't be bothered to store my razor in a different room, if I have a reasonable alternative.

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

Just a technicality but stainless razors are 'tougher' rather than 'harder'. They would usually be tempered like a 'softer' carbon steel razor. SS is abrasion resistant tho so can take a little bit more honing.

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That's what I heard - that they take extra effort to hone. I have enough trouble as it is with carbon razors....!!

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Originally Posted by rum

That's what I heard - that they take extra effort to hone. I have enough trouble as it is with carbon razors....!!

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Excuse me for sweating the details, but it is the HARDNESS of stainless that makes it both more scratch resistant and more difficult to hone.

TOUGHNESS is related to flexibility (ability to return to its original state after being bent or torqued).

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Originally Posted by Gammaray

Excuse me for sweating the details, but it is the HARDNESS of stainless that makes it both more scratch resistant and more difficult to hone.

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If you like details. Vintage Friodurs are made of 440 C which is not functionally harder than most carbon steel.
If you're talking about newer exotic SS then it may be on par with carbon for a high Rockwell level but not harder.

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Originally Posted by Gammaray

The metallurgists on this forum may take issue with characterizing stainless or carbon as "harder" or "tougher" than another. The formulations and characteristics of stainless or carbon steel are complex and dependent upon many alloying factors not the least of which is the tempering process.

I know less about the exact composition of my SR steel than I do my hunting and pocket knives, but there are some key physical characteristics needed to make a good razor. That main two are HARDNESS and TOUGHNESS. Hardness, like the Rockwell standard, is a measure of compression taken with a very hard probe. Most knives and razors come in at 57-62 Rockwell. Most of our razors come in at this level. This is actually one of the easier parameters to achieve by way of heat treating, and it is hardness that determines potential sharpness. But too much can make it too brittle resulting in a very fine edge that breaks off like glass while shaving. Toughness, is a measure of flexibility (to bend and return to its original form). This is a very important parameter for retaining a fine edge while shaving. This is accomplished by tempering. The process comes after the HIGH heat hardening step by reheating to a lower temperature ~400-1200 F depending on the alloy, followed by a quenching quick cool in water, oil, dry ice (stainless), or even wet mud (Japanese). Dovo and Thiers Issard quench carbon blades in a 1200 F degree bath of liquid lead.

Both carbon and stainless can exhibit excellent hardness and toughness. But in general, stainless is more likely to snap when bent due to the chrome alloy, although today's stainless alloys are much more resistant to breaking than in the past. Carbon can generally be made much tougher than stainless and is the preferred alloy for tool steel. Laminated or Damascus carbon steel knives are incredibly tough able to be bent to 90 degrees without breaking.

If made properly, both stainless and carbon steel can exhibit ideal properties for a SR with stainless having the additional advantage of rust resistances.

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:bow Thank you for really making an effort. Learned a lot!

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Originally Posted by Gammaray

Excuse me for sweating the details, but it is the HARDNESS of stainless that makes it both more scratch resistant and more difficult to hone.

TOUGHNESS is related to flexibility (ability to return to its original state after being bent or torqued).

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It's not the hardness of the steel, it's the hardness of the carbides in the steel. The stainless razors themselves will not be any harder on a rockwell hardness tester than a carbon steel razor, and it's likely that they will be softer than vintage carbon steel razors that were intended for barbers and made with a hard temper.

Chromium carbides, Vanadium carbides, Tungsten carbides....all are extremely hard. But the steel overall is not, the carbides in it are. They are what give the wear resistance, not the hardness of the overall alloy.

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Originally Posted by DaveW

It's not the hardness of the steel, it's the hardness of the carbides in the steel. The stainless razors themselves will not be any harder on a rockwell hardness tester than a carbon steel razor, and it's likely that they will be softer than vintage carbon steel razors that were intended for barbers and made with a hard temper.

Chromium carbides, Vanadium carbides, Tungsten carbides....all are extremely hard. But the steel overall is not, the carbides in it are. They are what give the wear resistance, not the hardness of the overall alloy.

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Agreed, but you cannot separate the carbides from the alloy. The fact is carbon steel can easily be hardened to unbelievable Rockwell levels that are of course too brittle to be useful. SO CAN STAINLESS steel. The main advantage with stainless steel is its resistance to rust. Ceteris Paribis (all things being equal) if rust resistance is not necessary then a properly hardened and tempered carbon steel will outperform stainless in terms of toughness. The hardness can be very close but carbon is tougher - period. Where are those rust resistant shock absorbers on trains and cars - that's right they are all carbon steel for a reason. The rust resistance would certainly be appreciated in these applications but stainless steel (even the best alloys) could never be tough enough to spring back and forth a million times without fatigue. Carbon steel is still the king of toughness. Here is an example where stainless steel could never pass the toughness test.

I know you will enjoy this video of a Master Bladesmith Test. Only one type of blade will pass – san mai (Japanese) or Damascus (American) laminated carbon steel blades. Stainless steel need not apply.

1. Cut a 1” hemp rope in one swing.
2. Chop through a 2x4 twice.
3. Shave arm hair after these two tests.
4. Pass blade examination by a Master Bladesmith.
5. Bend the blade in a vice to 90 degrees without metal fracture.




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWNh6UvE8lA

I struggled with my Boker stainless blade when I first received it. After several tries it just did not do as well as its brother The King Cutter. I communicated with SRD and told them my problem. They suggested I send it back which I did. After receiving it back, I used it on about a five days' growth. Shaved like a charm. Used again this AM, the same thing. No harsh feeling on the face. Only smoothness. This was my first stainless after shaving with regular carbon blades for years. I shall buy at least another one.

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Originally Posted by Gammaray

Agreed, but you cannot separate the carbides from the alloy.

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Somewhere you're getting mixed up with hardness and separability of carbides from a diemaking or toolmaker's steel.

The rockwell test does just that, it tests the hardness of the entire alloy, and not just the hardest part of it.

Back to the original claim, that stainless razors are harder than carbon steel razors - it is not true. Stainless has carbides in it, depending on the alloy, probably different carbides for corrosion resistance. So does high speed steel, for a different reason (to increase the tempering temperature).

In terms of toughness (without regard to knife tests, etc), all you have to do is go to latrobe steel's page and look at their toughness charts for powder and non powder diemaking and high speed steels versus carbon steels. The carbon steels are not the toughest of the bunch. It's not that simple, and you really have to get down to the measured method. D2 is tougher than carbon steel in general, but at 18 degrees, it will not be. Same with A2.

But don't get away from the fundamental issue here, in the steels that are used for razors, a chromium, vanadium or tungsten carbide doesn't make the alloy harder than another alloy that doesn't have them.

Holy crap batman,

There are some freaking smart people on this forum.......... But Iwant to set you all straight, (pun intended), I am not one of them! But ya all are giving me a history lesson here. We are in some way covering history, right? Don't worry, I suck at history too, unless I am making it.

That's right cupcakes, I pulled the trigger on a Dovo bismark, and the masters. And now my wife says I am history, joke.....Carbon, and a stainless. And now that I be a edumacated jarhead, my chin and other areas, (my hemorrhoids are disappearing) will be much more thankful. But the wife is putting size 7 foot down, (thank GOD she is not putting it up }#%€¥£&:;@-) and says no more pricey razors until I stop dragging my knuckles and shave them!

I am out of here, popping smoke

Charlie in Reno

Just about everyone has a few bits of the truth on either side of the argument. The traditional balance of hardness against toughness, speaking of steels, used to preclude having both at the same time. Some myths persist and some are known not to be. But, phases in carbon steels that put this myth to rest are not so easy in the high alloy steels and they remain subject to a delicate balance between hardness and toughness.

Hardness is the same whether the alloy is carbon or stainless. It is a relative measure of the pressure a diamond indenter needs to push into a sample. R(a,b,c) of X value (or Vickers or Mohs) is the same in both types of steel. What was not yet mentioned is microhardness testing that will determine the hardness of even a single carbide. But most generally the space between carbides must also be included in the hardness testing since the majority of us who own testing machines do not have microhardness testers. For that matter, I'm practical, I want to know that the general material is hard or not, not the individual carbides. An individual carbide does not illuminate the properties of the combined strength, or weaknesses, of all the material. when I'm heat treating, I'm heating the whole blade not individual components.

Chromium really likes to make big carbides especially when it's overheated for too long. A bigger carbide has more fracture planes in a relatively larger carbide surface area. Vanadium is added to make smaller carbides, that have a larger surface area to bear the strain than a larger crystal. So, chromium alloys are not as tough as vanadium alloys. But there has been a lot of progress in the world of crucible particle metallurgy and some of the CPM versions of ATS34 and 154CPM are a huge improvement over the previous cast alloys. The new alloys the S-series (S30V et al) are all capable of excellent, world class, sharpness and abrasion resistance and are rust resistant. Those smaller tight carbides are a real difference when compared to looking at the old SS alloys.

The high alloy steels are subject to greater risk in achieving the balance between hardness and toughness than carbon steels. For that reason, less hardness is acceptable to achieve greater toughness. Less hardness can be interpreted as easier to sharpen, or less edge retaining when shaving because abrasion resistance is a combination of both.

None of us, in their right mind, would subject a razor to the ABS kind of stress testing. Don't get me wrong, it's fun to watch, it's fun to do. It shows one type of heat treatment and not necessarily, would that maker sell a knife with that kind of heat treatment. It's only to pass that test.

No one on this site who hones razors would ever agree that shaving arm hair is sufficient to show that it will shave a face in the manner it is expected. It indicates the right direction but it's not enough all by itself to demonstrate shave readiness.

Given the same hardness and the same bevel angle, I suspect that shaving with either carbon or stainless will remain a highly subjective experience. The same might be said for a ceramic blade but those crystals could be considered harder than those in steels. Will it shave better? It will likely shave longer and be harder to hone.

If we stick to a blade that is metallic, and hard and tough and abrasion resistant, buy some stellite or talonite or the like. Those would be an incredibly mean joke to play on your favorite honer. I've had some complaints about a few of my blades (carbon) that were too hard. I regard that feedback as desirable because it shows that the sweet spot for performance is somewhere below the possible potential of the material.

My disclaimer in all this is that I am very fond of carbon steels. There are many fewer forging steels (there are some though) in the stainless materials. Even the classic traditional steels can perform surprisingly well and are often under-rated because of the rush after the modern-latest-greatests. Over the years I've seen good and bad examples of both kinds.

A few of us just had this sort of discussion over a sushi table last weekend. There were thousands, perhaps millions, of great shaving old razors made during a day when none of this stuff was known. A great many of you have, hone and shave with exactly those sorts of blades. Often in preference to new stuff. If it was good enough for guys who had no idea that the stuff we now know about metallurgy was around the corner, and still made some damn fine razors. Why is it a problem now?

In the end, if it gets hair off and you like it...its good. Let the hype sleep.

Well Said, Mike.
Appreciate the voice of reason.
Adam

Carbon and Stainless steel alloys today are superior to anything in the past and may be considered MORE than adequate for shaving.

I have nothing further to say on the matter.

Good day,

Gammaray

That's just not correct.

Current carbon steel may be more consistent common past steel, but the best crucible steel that was pre-bessemer is better than anything with the possible exception of yasuki white #1. Nothing in the diemaking steels (O1, A2, D2) that I'm aware of is as good of a razor steel as white #1, but white #1 is too hard for most people to master, and at high hardness it is a hard sharpening blade for a carbon steel. Good W1 steel is similar to the old steels, but I'm not aware of anyone making it. Old file steel and especially carbon razor steel was a higher carbon version of what would be W1, at least W1 is the closest to those because it is the least alloyed with the common carbides.

Quite a few modern items that rely on excellent quality carbon steel have taken a step backwards (edge tools, files (especially files, old files are both harder and sharper)...) because the demand from craftsmen and machinists just isn't there for the same quality level. I've got a couple swiss NOS file sets that are from the 1910s that are completely unmatched by anything available now. They are a good example of what has happened to the purer carbon steels.

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Originally Posted by Mike Blue

My disclaimer in all this is that I am very fond of carbon steels. There are many fewer forging steels (there are some though) in the stainless materials. Even the classic traditional steels can perform surprisingly well and are often under-rated because of the rush after the modern-latest-greatests. Over the years I've seen good and bad examples of both kinds.

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I couldn't imagine choosing a modern diemaking steel over the best quality crucible steel, if such a thing were still available. Of course someone would have to work with it for a while to figure out its sweet spot. As you mention, millions of razors were made extremely well with

It would seem like O1 would be one of the better modern steels because it is cheap, predictable, and can take a pretty good edge from almost any abrasive - natural or synthetic. It can also literally be heat treated with a weed torch in open atmosphere and tempered in a kitchen oven (not that any self-respecting cutler would do such a thing) quite well if the light level is low enough to see what's going on in the hardening stage. And it doesn't warp a lot compared to W1.

Its funny that you mention folks complaining that a razor is too hard (but apparently without actually having chipouts). I'd consider that desirable. Someone a while ago told me the chisel makers in japan are making a lot of their chisels softer than they did 30 years ago because more hobbyists are buying them and they complain when they are hard and say they are too difficult to sharpen. So they still describe them as being 65/66 hardness (for the top line chisels) but they make them less hard. People want to spec buy based on numbers, but what they actually want is something different, they just don't want to be told that they're complaining about something that was made properly.