Thoughts on Grinds

I've been experimenting lately with using alternate grinds to check for performance differences and have come to an odd conclusion about grinds and my face. It seems that the more hollow a grind is the worse the shave I get is. I recently removed my goatee and discovered that, that spot of my face simply jams anything smaller then a 6/8 going WTG. So I got a pro honed dovo best quality 6/8 and found that while it jammed less then my other razors it was still jamming up a bit. The only razors I own that seem to get the job done comfortably are my Wade and Butcher 5/8 wedge and my 45mm Iwasaki Kamisori. One piece of great news for me is my pro honed dovo isn't all that much sharper then my own honing work at home. I know what I'm shooting for now and I'm really not far off.

While I've noticed the more hollow grinds shave much closer then my wedge they just don't have the heft to get through my chin hair and given how light weight my kamisori is I'm starting to think grind is the real determining factor. I think my next move is to try out some 1/2 hollow grinds and maybe 1/4 hollow grinds keeping it in the 6/8 range.

If any of you fine gents with thick tough chin hair have hit a sweet spot I'd love to hear about it! Also while I'm working on getting my house ready for a meet up I now have a bunch of razors that need new homes; I'm thinking of either using the classifieds or letting some of you guys see them in person. After removing my goatee all my 5/8 and smaller razors just aren't up to snuff anymore.

You should be able to get a superb shave out of ANY grind if the razor is of quality steel, you are using proper technique, and it was honed properly. If not, something is off...

My shaving rotation consists of a wide variety of grinds (singing hollows to 1/4 hollows) and sizes (7/16 MAB to 8/8 W & B), each one shaves differently...but if I goof a shave, it's not the razor but me. The only razor I don't keep in my rotation and am not a fan of is a true wedge.

When I started honing & touching up my own blades, I was of the same opinion until I realized it was because of my heavy hands on the stones. Once I got that down, I then realized that those singing hollows shave just as good on a heavy beard as a wedge. Experiment a bit and you will learn what you like NOW...may not be what you like in a year.

What you are experiencing is fairly normal for new guys. Many will start out and decide that the heavy grinds are best, only to reverse their decision later on. When it comes to full hollows it's usually technique issues that are the source of the problem rather than the razor itself. Don't forget that full hollowed razors were favored by barbers back in the day, and they had to shave customers with any type of beard growth.

Here's an old thread from a former member that best illustrates what I'm talking about:

http://straightrazorpalace.com/razor...w-apology.html

This is not a new phenomenon for newbs,,, the heavier grinds require less finesses, they plow through easier and more forcefully.. This is the reason that in the Wiki I actually recommended that newbs start in the middle ie: a 6/8 round point 1/2 hollow grind, that way you can decide which way to go after you get the hang of it...

Personal preference takes effect after you figure out how all of them work on your face,, as you get better with handling the razors, one type will get better for you, but all should "Work"

For instance myself I love the extreme hollows for their delicate touch, but I can get a DFS with any grind...


Edit: :) Ryan beat me to it

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Originally Posted by Ryan82

What you are experiencing is fairly normal for new guys. Many will start out and decide that the heavy grinds are best, only to reverse their decision later on. When it comes to full hollows it's usually technique issues that are the source of the problem rather than the razor itself. Don't forget that full hollowed razors were favored by barbers back in the day, and they had to shave customers with any type of beard growth.

Here's an old thread from a former member that best illustrates what I'm talking about:

http://straightrazorpalace.com/razor...w-apology.html

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I remember that thread, and I think that it states things pretty well. Often, when I describe a razor's shave qualities, I might use the term "forgiving" -- that is it has usually a more stiff grind or a temper that makes it less flexible. I think razors like that make a lot of sense when starting out. They help build confidence in one's technique and suffer a little less when no longer perfectly honed. it can be a real revelation, though, when you get a hold of a well-honed hollow and apply it to a well-prepared face.

Informative as always, I'll mess with my technique some more. Right now I've mostly narrowed my problems down to either technique or stropping. I recently mapped my chin completely and that helped quite a bit with my chin hair problems. I'm also thinking of going back to my hot towel routine for prep now that the goatee is off. I didn't find that the hot towel prep did very much with my face but now that I'm doing my chin too I'm thinking my chin whiskers may need it. I've tried shaving oil for prep but that blew up in my face quite literally. I just couldn't get my skin pulling right with all that slick oil on me and cut myself all over. Even with oil used sparingly it didn't work out right. As always you guys are great, thanks for the great advice.

Gentlemen,

I have often seen these two conflicting opinions, that a) heavier grind razors works better on coarse beards vs b) any well honed razor will work well on any beard type.

I wouldn't consider myself a newbie and yet I share Steelstubble's impression. I have used new professionally honed full hollows, and I still find that when it comes to comfort and speed, a heavier grind works better on my beard type.

Yes I can get a close shave with a full hollow, but it isn't as comfortable, and is more time consuming.

I have a bergischer lowe for example that is very keen and splits hairs like butter, but on my beard it flexes way too much and on the chin especially, it is a chore.

I think beard type really is a factor. As an example, I sold a razor to a member on this forum several years ago that I had honed myself. It was a full hollow dovo silver steel prima. On my beard it was struggling, but when he used it, he sent me a message the following day, saying that it was an awesome shaver.

I have curly black hair and I am middle-eastern, he has fairer straight hair and most likely a lighter beard. So what works for him won't necessarily work for me.

Just to add fuel to the fire, didn't some of the German razor makers advertise their heavier wedge type grinds as for a strong beard, "fur stark bart"? Initially I thought heavier grinds did work better for me but now either will do if sharp enough. Then again I do have average facial hair and not particularly on the heavy dense side. There may be a grain of truth to heavier grinds being better for heavy dense beards but I wouldn't know not having that kind of beard.

Bob

I've found with my face I have very fair, soft, thin skin but very thick tough stubble. One of the many reasons I removed my goatee was because its actually cut my fiance's face once while kissing. I feel that I sound like I'm exaggerating about how tough my beard is but I assure you I'm not. Either way, I'm going to experiment with this and see if I can get my full hollows working comfortably.

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Originally Posted by BobH

Just to add fuel to the fire, didn't some of the German razor makers advertise their heavier wedge type grinds as for a strong beard, "fur stark bart"?

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Don't forget that there was a lot of marketing going on in those days, including many claims that may or may not be true. Most men figure they have the toughest beard around (true or not, who knows?) and perhaps they struggled with using a full hollow. All of a sudden one maker out of hundreds (perhaps thousands) claims they have the perfect razor for YOUR beard. I bet they got a lot of sales that way.

I still have some full hollows that I like to use, such as my dovo bismarck 6/8 and dovo special 6/8.

That is true ^, marketing could have something to do with it. There were more than a few makers who subscribed to that theory whether marked on the blade or in company literature. Still doesn't necessarily make it true or not. Not much to argue about or debate except to say you use what works for you. I'll leave those with delusions of manliness to their own devices as far as believing advertising goes.

Bob

This is just a subjective "IMO" thought, but here is mine.....

It has as much to do with the depth of beard as it does the beard "type"

When I take on a 3 or 4 day growth, I reach for a wedge. When its only been a day or two, I reach for...well...whatever I happen to have on the line that day.
I am working with the supposition that the longer facial hair, particularly on a tough beard, can fold or roll under the edge of a flexible extra hollow. Where as a stiff wedgey blade will not move, and thus will "bite" its way through a doubled layer of hair rather than choke on it. If you understand what I am saying. (I know I am lacking vocabulary here)

yes we have discussed this many, many times and like I've always said the ultimate truth here is if you visited the average barber shop in the 1950s or prior when shaves were a routine you would find most barbers had an assortment of straights and they were all either 5/8s or 6/8s. They used those razors to shave everyone who walked into the shop and they all walked out very satisfied customers. So if the theory you need a specialized razor to match a beard was correct barbers should have had all sizes to match the task. They didn't.

Of course those barbers were professionally trained to use a straight and knew how to map out someones beard and did this every day so they were masters. But, it doesn't change the fact they still would have had the proper tool for the job.

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

Of course those barbers were professionally trained to use a straight and knew how to map out someones beard and did this every day so they were masters. But, it doesn't change the fact they still would have had the proper tool for the job.

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Having only had one straight razor shave from a barber--and that was around 30 years ago--I can hardly claim to be an expert on the topic, but I remember being surprised at the time to find the straight shave wasn't as close as I could get at home with my cartridge razor.

I later realized it was because he wasn't shaving against the grain. I think this was due to the fact that a lot of people have skin that's a little too sensitive for ATG shaving. I mean, I doubt a barber would do the Dreaded Fool's Pass (ATG in the mustache area) unless asked to. And yet, I can't get BBS in that area without going ATG.

So again, I might be wrong here, but I suspect most barbers shaved people close enough to look good, but didn't devote nearly as much effort to shaving ATG and trying to get a BBS shave as most SRPers do. It took too much time and effort and might have resulted in an irritated customer. Not good for business.

(Of course, any barbers reading this are free to shoot me down if it turns out that--yet again!--I'm full of hot air.)


Specialization is for insects--Robert Heinlein

Aside from feel, these are the only two differences I've noticed between grinds:

1. Full wedges are harder to hone than the rest because there's more meat of the bevel on the stone. Put any sort of hollow in there, and the bevel shrinks its width, making the honing much easier.

2. With a full hollow 9/8 or 10/8, any amount of pressure honing will flex the blade and lift the cutting edge off the stone, so that you are no longer sharpening the edge as much as you are polishing the bevel. Significant pressure will do this with a full hollow 7/8 or 8/8 as well.

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Originally Posted by Badgister

Gentlemen,
I have a bergischer lowe for example that is very keen and splits hairs like butter, but on my beard it flexes way too much and on the chin especially, it is a chore.

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I am curious to know how much pressure you are using, if you are flexing the razor blade on your skin. I test shave with every razor I refurbish and sell (pushing 100 now I believe), and I have found that a properly honed razor of any grind will shave my beard the same, and I have a fairly heavy growth with course, thick whiskers.

I've also noticed that the size and weight of a razor can trick my mind into thinking that a heavier razor (thicker grind) more easily shaves my beard, but it is an illusion, IMO. It just takes incrementally more effort to push a lighter razor through a heavy beard than a heavier razor, making it SEEM like a heavier grind shaves a heavier beard better. But this is only my experience speaking, and I am sure those with more experience than I may disagree.

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Originally Posted by IndispensiBill

Having only had one straight razor shave from a barber--and that was around 30 years ago--I can hardly claim to be an expert on the topic, but I remember being surprised at the time to find the straight shave wasn't as close as I could get at home with my cartridge razor.

I later realized it was because he wasn't shaving against the grain. I think this was due to the fact that a lot of people have skin that's a little too sensitive for ATG shaving. I mean, I doubt a barber would do the Dreaded Fool's Pass (ATG in the mustache area) unless asked to. And yet, I can't get BBS in that area without going ATG.

So again, I might be wrong here, but I suspect most barbers shaved people close enough to look good, but didn't devote nearly as much effort to shaving ATG and trying to get a BBS shave as most SRPers do. It took too much time and effort and might have resulted in an irritated customer. Not good for business.

(Of course, any barbers reading this are free to shoot me down if it turns out that--yet again!--I'm full of hot air.)


Specialization is for insects--Robert Heinlein

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Your talking the 1980s? Shaving was already out of fashion by Barbers by then. Pretty much by the 1960s already it was going downhill. I don't know when schools stopped training for straights. I will tell you in the 1950s and prior if you got a shave from a professional barber that wasn't perfect he would be in big trouble and if a barber so much as nicked you a lot of guys would have layed him out on the floor.

Barbers were trained to map out someones beard and tell if their skin was more delicate and knew the types of strokes he needed to do and what the customer could tolerate. There were little tricks they were taught involving the types of strokes to get the job done proper customer by customer.

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Originally Posted by sheffieldlover

I am curious to know how much pressure you are using, if you are flexing the razor blade on your skin. I test shave with every razor I refurbish and sell (pushing 100 now I believe), and I have found that a properly honed razor of any grind will shave my beard the same, and I have a fairly heavy growth with course, thick whiskers.

I've also noticed that the size and weight of a razor can trick my mind into thinking that a heavier razor (thicker grind) more easily shaves my beard, but it is an illusion, IMO. It just takes incrementally more effort to push a lighter razor through a heavy beard than a heavier razor, making it SEEM like a heavier grind shaves a heavier beard better. But this is only my experience speaking, and I am sure those with more experience than I may disagree.

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I am applying the same pressure I use with all my razors with quick short strokes . I suppose there is a reason why razors come in different grinds, sizes etc.. what works better for one person might not so much for another.