Straight razor shave not as close or smooth as shavette?

I have been using a parker shavette using half of a double blade for the last few months to get used to straight razor shaving and make sure i like it before spending the money on a real one. i'm sure most people do this. anyway, just bought a 6/8" standard dovo from straightrazordesigns along with a 3" strop, and a few other odds and ends. I was really looking forward to using a well honed SR.

after a few shaves i'm a bit concerned. for one, it isn't nearly as smooth as i expected nor does it seem to cut quite as closely. as a test I broke out the old parker and a fresh blade. shaved one side of my face with the parker the other with the dovo. while visually there doesn't seem to be much difference, i can definitely FEEL the closer shave of the parker. also, the dovo seems to have a lot more drag, which is probably the worst part. i don't know what else i can do. i feel like my technique isn't that bad and i'm stropping the 60-80 times correctly and my preparation is the same as i have always done with decent results.

one thing i do like is the dovo seems to be much more forgiving on cuts/nicks etc. even if it shaved just as good as the parker i'd be satisfied but i guess i was expecting more.

do you think SRD didn't do as good a job on the honing as they could have? should I ask for a redo?

This a common issue when guys move from the shavette to a traditional SR. The problem isn't with the honing. It's with your technique.

I know you have been using the shavette for awhile and are confident in your technique. However while most of that will transfer to the traditional SR you need to tweak it some.

Try adjusting your angle. That sounds like the biggest issue. You are also going to have to adjust to the length of the blade. Some strokes you learned with the Parker won't woke with traditional SR simple because it is longer and won't fight in the same area.

I'm about three months in now, and just for the last week have I been getting the results I liked. Before that I was going around after, cleaning up with a shavette or DE, thinking I just was never going to get a nice shave, wondering if I'd wasted my money on straights.

It's probably not about the blade itself, but your technique [as Castel33 said]. I found that the normal three-pass plan wasn't working for me, and finally through experimentation discovered some things that worked well, and now I can do a really nice one-pass, with a little detailing, and I'm done. I'm starting to feel that in a couple of weeks I'll be able to shave with a shovel, or the spine side of a Gold Dollar. It was ALL about technique.

The two things that helped me most were developing a nice slice, and learning the right angle to use. A good slicing stroke can do a lot, but using a shavette, I bet you have never done that at all. It takes a while to get enough confidence that you don't feel you're going to open yourself up like you're cleaning a fish, and then a bit longer to where it's natural, and that's when it's a huge step up in efficiency.

As far as angle, there are a couple of places on my chin that just get completely missed, unless I come at them against the grain, but at a very high blade angle. They lie really flat, in the texture of my (oldish) skin, and at a low angle the blade skims right over them like trying to pick up dimes off a tile floor. Violating the low angle against the grain rule caught them and lifted them, and everything fell together almost instantly for me.

So, don't give up.

Another thing you may want to think about, which is something I've noticed as well, the Parker Shavette blade length is a good deal shorter than a real straight blade. You may be having some issues with the longer blade length. I think thats part of my problem with it as well.

I think that Mdarnton has nailed it.

The only thing I would add is that part of the technique is rhythm when it comes to a straight razor. While with a safety razor (or indeed a Shavette) a long, straight, slow stroke may take off a lot of beard, the same is not true for a straight. It takes short, relatively quick, rhythmic scything motions with an angle varying from 30 degrees for with the grain to practically flat against your face for against the grain. And if you've never used a straight, this motion and its rhythm will be part of the learning curve.

If you are sure that your razor is well-honed, give it a good strop and try again. I bet you'll have better and better results--as much as we love to geek out on this, straight-razor shaving isn't rocket science!

"as much as we love to geek out on this, straight-razor shaving isn't rocket science!"
Neither is ice sculpting but you do have to hold the chain saw just right. :<0) I have been using a straight for about 5 months and I skipped the shavette thing and couldn't even tell you how to hold a DE. But I can say what the guys are telling you about a straight is true and some of it you have to learn twice.

OK it's technique. That's fine, I'm willing to work at it, but do ya guys have any specific advice on the technique such as angles etc? I realize it will take practice but can you post some good videos that address specifics? Mdarnton, can you elaborate on this "slice" thing?

Check out "shaving with a straight razor" youtube videos. Heaps of them to watch.

shaving with straight razor - YouTube

Cheers,

Sunbird

I understand that Lynn is great and everything but does the possibility exist that my razor was not honed properly enough? If so is there any way to tell?

Before blaming the honer you need to ask yurself: "Didn't I destroy the edge myself?"
SRD sharpened blades come honed and stropped, ready for use. Did you strop it before using it the first time? If so you may accidentally damaged the cutting edge. This happens a to a lot of beginners. Did you dry the razor properly before putting it back?

Is it your whole face you're having trouble with or just the awkward bits? If you can shave your sideburns/cheeks okay but having trouble with chin/jawline/neck/top lip then it could well be technique. If you can't even shave your sideburns then you may have damaged the edge. That's just my take on it, but I've only been doing this for 4 months.

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Originally Posted by Kees

Before blaming the honer you need to ask yurself: "Didn't I destroy the edge myself?"
SRD sharpened blades come honed and stropped, ready for use. Did you strop it before using it the first time? If so you may accidentally damaged the cutting edge. This happens a to a lot of beginners. Did you dry the razor properly before putting it back?

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certainly. I considered that aspect of it as well. i did strop it before use, but only because i was instructed to do so by SRD. after shaving, each time i dried then oiled the blade. while my stoping technique could be sub-par, i seriously doubt it was bad enough to destroy the edge. and the last couple of times i took extra care to keep the blade as even as possible and didn't notice any difference.

but even if it was my technique and certain areas are closer than others, what would explain the worse blade drag?

The "slice" thing: when you chop up bread from the loaf, you don't just try to push the knife straight down, you slice, and it works better. Same for shaving. You can either push with the razor at 90 degrees to the line of movement and slide the razor sideways as you do, or turn the edge at an angle to the direction of the cut, as on a guillotine. Or both.

The slicing is like sawing. Guillotine is a bit more esoteric: what it is actually doing is effectively reducing the 15 degree cutting angle of the blade to something even smaller. At a 45 degree angle you're down to a 7.5 degree effective cutting angle. Nifty.

You want to have pretty good control before you do this: no one here wants you to slit your throat while shaving.

Lynn could tell you. :<0) And I am sure he is honest enough that if it was his fault he would tell you. If not his fault well you have to pay to get it honed again anyway. The real test will be when you get it back. Shave with it THEN strop it. See what happens.

I was wondering if it possible to strop a shavette blade. I have no idea but if so it would tell you something too.

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Originally Posted by 10Pups

I was wondering if it possible to strop a shavette blade. I have no idea but if so it would tell you something too.

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Good idea 10pups. I can confirm you can ruin an edge with stropping, i did exactly that with my first shave ready razor. I watched alot of vids when i started, and bottom line is, everyone shaves differently, but it did help me to learn technique. Never used a shavette, but i am now getting less irritation from a straight than i did with DE razors, or the dreaded mk3.

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Originally Posted by vilago

certainly. I considered that aspect of it as well. i did strop it before use, but only because i was instructed to do so by SRD. after shaving, each time i dried then oiled the blade. while my stoping technique could be sub-par, i seriously doubt it was bad enough to destroy the edge. and the last couple of times i took extra care to keep the blade as even as possible and didn't notice any difference.

but even if it was my technique and certain areas are closer than others, what would explain the worse blade drag?

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Let me suggest that you have not done anything wrong. You are in the midst of a learning curve. More than likely the blade is properly honed, but if you are like I was, you are too inexperienced to know. People who hone for a living understand this.

It helped me to purchase a second inexpensive razor in the Classifieds section that was shave ready, to eliminate any possibility that honing was an issue. This also allowed me to sample another kind of razor, and see if I liked one better than another.

I think you eliminated stropping as a contributing cause of your difficulty. That is no small accomplishment.

Learning to straight shave is a process of eliminating variables and developing skill in the things that are left to learn.

You have accomplished an awful lot, and things will only get better and more enjoyable.

No need for slicing if your razor is sharp enough. I think slicing is asking for cuts.
Contact SRD and ask them to have a look at the razor, they are usually willing to do so.

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Originally Posted by mdarnton

The "slice" thing: when you chop up bread from the loaf, you don't just try to push the knife straight down, you slice, and it works better. Same for shaving. You can either push with the razor at 90 degrees to the line of movement and slide the razor sideways as you do, or turn the edge at an angle to the direction of the cut, as on a guillotine. Or both.

The slicing is like sawing. Guillotine is a bit more esoteric: what it is actually doing is effectively reducing the 15 degree cutting angle of the blade to something even smaller. At a 45 degree angle you're down to a 7.5 degree effective cutting angle. Nifty.

You want to have pretty good control before you do this: no one here wants you to slit your throat while shaving.

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OK that's what I'll do. i wanted to get some good feedback from this crowd first, which i have done, and with a little more information in hand i'll be better prepared to discuss options with SRD. thanks everyone for the help!

A couple of more observations... A DE blade (as used in the shavette) is only about half the length of a typical straight razor. Even allowing for the fact that you don't use the whole blade when using a conventional straight you are cutting more whiskers with each stroke which can, at least partially, account for the feeling that there is less drag with the shavette.

I don't use a shavette, but I do use a Feather AC on occasion and I can tell you that it is a very efficient tool for cutting whiskers. Arguably, a fresh Feather blade is sharper than most (but not all;)) of my razors and somewhat similar to a DE blade. My observation is that if I do one pass the Feather might do a better job of cutting than a regular straight, but if I do two passes the immediate results are indistinguishable if you consider only closeness. Fast forward ten hours or so and a Feather shave has noticeably more stubble. The bottom line is that I am not disappointed with either tool....they are simply different. They feel different in use and they yield slightly different results.

So, is your technique faulty? Maybe not, in a conventional sense. I think you should give it some more time and get to know your straight razor a little better. While it may not be as sharp as a DE blade I bet it's sharp enough to shave you properly and comfortably once you get accustomed to using it.

yeah i was thinking about giving it one or two more tries first, paying a little more attention to how i hold it, angles etc.

I got a shave ready Henckels razor and was wondering why it only seemed to be scraping off lather instead of actually shaving. I chalked it up to my technique (I am a newbie, after all). But then I did 10 x-strokes on my new barbers hone with the Dovo my brother gave me (which has not been honed since he got it, he said), and it had no issue mowing through my whiskers. So now I know the Henckels just wasn't sharp enough, despite having come honed from a reputable seller. I did 10 x-strokes on the hone with it and will use it next time I shave, see how it does.

interesting. is there anyone else who went from a shavette to the real thing like I did and experienced something similar? If so, what was the result? I'm going to give it another go tonight (had an ingrown hair i had to let heal first) and see what happens.

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Originally Posted by vilago

...i did strop it before use, but only because i was instructed to do so by SRD.

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Sorry to cast doubts, but is that really the case? I haven't bought a razor from them before, but if I did, I would assume it were shave ready and just go shave with it. It's hard to believe that they'd recommend novice shavers should strop them first!

Actually it's not.

We have had so many people talk about not being able to do the HHT with an oiled razor, that we have gone to recommending that the oil be cleaned off the razor and it be stropped before shaving.

Most people just clean off the oil and shave with them regardless.

The biggest problem is either poor or conflicting information on some forums and the fact that new guys expectations are above their abilities on their first shave. Invariably when technique is a problem, a lot of folks look to every thing except that as the fault.

Add to this that the OP has gone from a shavette to a 6/8 razor. You can get away with a more open angle with the shavette than you can a real straight and most people who transition struggle with this when they switch to a 5/8 razor let alone a 6/8. The key remains to make sure the razor is more vertical or keep the spine about one width off the face or less than 30 degrees for the razor to cut properly. I normally recommend going back to ground zero when switching and just shave from one sideburn to the jaw on one side of the face until you get the technique down and then move on to the cheeks, neck and save the chin for last.

Have fun

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Originally Posted by northpaw

Sorry to cast doubts, but is that really the case? I haven't bought a razor from them before, but if I did, I would assume it were shave ready and just go shave with it. It's hard to believe that they'd recommend novice shavers should strop them first!

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Originally Posted by Lynn

Actually it's not.

We have had so many people talk about not being able to do the HHT with an oiled razor, that we have gone to recommending that the oil be cleaned off the razor and it be stropped before shaving.

Most people just clean off the oil and shave with them regardless.

The biggest problem is either poor or conflicting information on some forums and the fact that new guys expectations are above their abilities on their first shave. Invariably when technique is a problem, a lot of folks look to every thing except that as the fault.

Add to this that the OP has gone from a shavette to a 6/8 razor. You can get away with a more open angle with the shavette than you can a real straight and most people who transition struggle with this when they switch to a 5/8 razor let alone a 6/8. The key remains to make sure the razor is more vertical or keep the spine about one width off the face or less than 30 degrees for the razor to cut properly. I normally recommend going back to ground zero when switching and just shave from one sideburn to the jaw on one side of the face until you get the technique down and then move on to the cheeks, neck and save the chin for last.

Have fun

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About the proper angle. Should I start with the razor flat against my face and then slowing increase the angle until it cuts? Once it cuts is that the proper angle?
I have noticed that I can shave at that angle but if I open it up to a wider angle, it will shave also. I think at the wider angle it is more comfortable but not as close.

Flat against the face will not cut either but it gives a good picture from there of the spine one spine width off the face. That and more vertical so to speak really helps most guys. Some still struggle with this a little simply from a tactile perspective and there is a real tendency for people to bend their wrist back once they start their shaving stroke. You can still shave as stated with a more open stroke, but that's where the scraping and less hair removal comes in and where a lot of people think the razor is to blame vs. technique. At the end of the day, a little patience and practice gets almost everyone success and then the fun begins.

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Originally Posted by joepa150

About the proper angle. Should I start with the razor flat against my face and then slowing increase the angle until it cuts? Once it cuts is that the proper angle?
I have noticed that I can shave at that angle but if I open it up to a wider angle, it will shave also. I think at the wider angle it is more comfortable but not as close.

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Lynn, thanks for these tips, i really appreciate it. I'm not trying to knock your honing which is why i came here first to get some feedback. i'll try a more vertical angle and hopefully that is where the problem lies, which is a simpler solution as well.

Not a problem.

We deal with the shavette transition to real straight razor frequently here and most people struggle a bit in the beginning. For most, once you get past the technique difference, it's smooth sailing.

Have fun.

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Originally Posted by vilago

Lynn, thanks for these tips, i really appreciate it. I'm not trying to knock your honing which is why i came here first to get some feedback. i'll try a more vertical angle and hopefully that is where the problem lies, which is a simpler solution as well.

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