found a brother to one of my GREAVES

as much as I love the one I had , I felt no shame in adding another !! this is one of my FAVORITE blade designs on a Greaves razor !!
back side scale is trashed but useable until I make a new set ... think im gonna go with a early 1800's design and rescale them both .. ya never know as by then I may have 5 more for a AWESOME 7-day set !!

http://i658.photobucket.com/albums/u...s/IMAG3822.jpg

http://i658.photobucket.com/albums/u...s/IMAG3818.jpg

http://i658.photobucket.com/albums/u...s/IMAG3819.jpg

http://i658.photobucket.com/albums/u...s/IMAG3820.jpg

http://i658.photobucket.com/albums/u...s/IMAG3821.jpg

Use the horn scales for your patterns when making the new ones,the wood scales to my eye do not work.

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Originally Posted by pixelfixed

Use the horn scales for your patterns when making the new ones,the wood scales to my eye do not work.

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yes , I agree , those wood ones are one of the first sets I made and was never happy with them , I saw a original scales chart of patterns on Zak's site that I think are pretty close to the horn ones onthe new to me razor that im gonna use .. still trying to decide between Honey horn or black , then finding horn at a place where there isn't a minimum order

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gooser

yes , I agree , those wood ones are one of the first sets I made and was never happy with them , I saw a original scales chart of patterns on Zak's site that I think are pretty close to the horn ones onthe new to me razor that im gonna use .. still trying to decide between Honey horn or black , then finding horn at a place where there isn't a minimum order

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Why not just use the current scales for the template? They look original to me.

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Originally Posted by ScienceGuy

Why not just use the current scales for the template? They look original to me.

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I agree with ScienceGuy. I save old scales even if they're broken just for patterns. I also use old broken horn to make shavings for fillers.

There's no way I would remove/replace the scales on the black one, unless they are damaged. Those scales would clean up beautifully,,, IMO

Here's an old Greaves blade I need to make some scales for. They became Wm Greaves & Sons in 1801 when William's two sons joined in. This blade is early 1800's, not 1801 or anything like that because of the tail length & it not being a stubby.

Look familiar Gooser ? :shrug:

Attachment 192593

Attachment 192594

This is what lies underneath that "black coating" on those scales. I believe the scales to be turtle, as many turtles are seen wth the black coating in the wild, such as those swamp , water turtles,, that coating is removed to get those nice combs & such you see. I could be wrong, but maybe not,,,
45 minutes of EZ-Off Heavy Duty on the entire razor, ate the black off,,, brushed off with a toothbrush & dish soap,,, loosened the surface rust, left the washers shiny,,, the blade was wirked with steel wool & 3m paper,,,,

Attachment 192600

Attachment 192601

Attachment 192603

Attachment 192604

[QUOTE=Hirlau;1456851]Look familiar Gooser ? :shrug:

This is what lies underneath that "black coating" on those scales. I believe the scales to be turtle, as many turtles are seen wth the black coating in the wild, such as those swamp , water turtles,, that coating is removed to get those nice combs & such you see. I could be wrong, but maybe not,,,
45 minutes of EZ-Off Heavy Duty on the entire razor, ate the black off,,, brushed off with a toothbrush & dish soap,,, loosened the surface rust, left the washers shiny,,, the blade was wirked with steel wool & 3m paper,,,,

Good job well done John!!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ScienceGuy

Why not just use the current scales for the template? They look original to me.

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yeah I had traced them already as I thought they were the originals , when I looked at the patterns they are pretty close if not the same .. im gonna swap the wood out for the same ..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by engine46

I agree with ScienceGuy. I save old scales even if they're broken just for patterns. I also use old broken horn to make shavings for fillers.

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I hear ya , I have a whole draw of pattern scales that came off of old razors ..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hirlau

Look familiar Gooser ? :shrug:

Attachment 192593

Attachment 192594

This is what lies underneath that "black coating" on those scales. I believe the scales to be turtle, as many turtles are seen wth the black coating in the wild, such as those swamp , water turtles,, that coating is removed to get those nice combs & such you see. I could be wrong, but maybe not,,,
45 minutes of EZ-Off Heavy Duty on the entire razor, ate the black off,,, brushed off with a toothbrush & dish soap,,, loosened the surface rust, left the washers shiny,,, the blade was wirked with steel wool & 3m paper,,,,

Attachment 192600

Attachment 192601

Attachment 192603

Attachment 192604

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I bet these scales are the same .. ive been looking at them since I got it cause they are paper thin compared to most and have a diff texture .., now I wonder and am gonna clean up the unbroken/shattered side ..!! .. the no stamped side was beyond repair , it was a sham as it was missing large parts ...

Could just use one of these?

Attachment 192643

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hirlau

There's no way I would remove/replace the scales on the black one, unless they are damaged. Those scales would clean up beautifully,,, IMO

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tip was missing on reverse side of pics all the way to the pin ( gone) and 2 cracks around wedge pin with a piece missing (no where to be found ) I agree though , I don't make a habit of removing old scales unless I have too , I was goona use but where end was missing by pivot pin it finished its break when I opened the razor when I was going to hone .. on a side note after seeing your pictures it sucks that the original was so damaged but on a bright side the honey horn I ordered couple days ago is gonna match just right and since the first Greaves one I had of this came in a beat up pair of wood scales I will have 2 now with the outfit close to what they should have on them ..!
after a clean up ..

http://i658.photobucket.com/albums/u...s/IMAG3830.jpg
http://i658.photobucket.com/albums/u...s/IMAG3828.jpg

[QUOTE=Hirlau;1456851]Look familiar Gooser ? :shrug:

This is what lies underneath that "black coating" on those scales. I believe the scales to be turtle, as many turtles are seen wth the black coating in the wild, such as those swamp , water turtles,, that coating is removed to get those nice combs & such you see. I could be wrong, but maybe not,,,
45 minutes of EZ-Off Heavy Duty on the entire razor, ate the black off,,, brushed off with a toothbrush & dish soap,,, loosened the surface rust, left the washers shiny,,, the blade was wirked with steel wool & 3m paper,,,,

I need to check all the Greaves I have. I have quite a few W Greaves!

[QUOTE=engine46;1457019]

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hirlau

Look familiar Gooser ? :shrug:

This is what lies underneath that "black coating" on those scales. I believe the scales to be turtle, as many turtles are seen wth the black coating in the wild, such as those swamp , water turtles,, that coating is removed to get those nice combs & such you see. I could be wrong, but maybe not,,,
45 minutes of EZ-Off Heavy Duty on the entire razor, ate the black off,,, brushed off with a toothbrush & dish soap,,, loosened the surface rust, left the washers shiny,,, the blade was wirked with steel wool & 3m paper,,,,

I need to check all the Greaves I have. I have quite a few W Greaves!

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chop chop !! get to cleaning those babys !! we wanna see more pics ..lol..

Just to be safe , if you go Ez Off on those type of scales,,, leave 25 to 30,,, then check

Here's one similar that sold for $113 on eBay but it has a worked spine. It also has 1814 scratched into the bug bitten scales.

Guys, that is all horn. It was very common practice to dye lighter horn to a black color. Often If you take old black scales and sand them you will expose the undyed blonde or brown surface underneath. Tortoise would not have had any kind of coating. I would also not expect to see it much on more common pattern razors like these.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ScienceGuy

Guys, that is all horn. It was very common practice to dye lighter horn to a black color. Often If you take old black scales and sand them you will expose the undyed blonde or brown surface underneath. Tortoise would not have had any kind of coating. I would also not expect to see it much on more common pattern razors like these.

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That explains why I had some black scale material I once made scales from & when I got them thin enough, they had a transparency to them. Thanks ScienceGuy!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ScienceGuy

Guys, that is all horn. It was very common practice to dye lighter horn to a black color. Often If you take old black scales and sand them you will expose the undyed blonde or brown surface underneath. Tortoise would not have had any kind of coating. I would also not expect to see it much on more common pattern razors like these.

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I can't dissagree with you,,, your knowledge of razor history is well known,,
but here are some facts that stir me away from dye,,,, that black you see is a "coating" & thick,,, it was not a dye or stain,,,,I guess it could have been a black dye/paint such as a thick house latex paint that we see today. I discoverd this pattern while working the blade under water,,, it became tacky & smelled of animal,,, it "peeled" off,,,,, once cleaned the remaining scales have failed to stink of animal.
I have held many old water turtles that seemd to match visially the outer top shell,,, as you know the bottom can vary in pattern,,,, it's ironic that processed shell merchandise,,,combs, etc... have a similar look,,,

I'm not convinced that they are turtle either,,, I just cant buy the dye theory,,,,

Yes, the finished product feels like horn,,,,, but what is a turtle's shell made of??? I don't know,,,,:shrug:

Is all Keritin John,just like your fingernails

Like I said in another post, I don't know it all. I learn something new everyday!

I'm generalizing, I don't know about your specific razor, but the recipes for some of the horn darkeners are published and many are quite nasty/caustic, I could believe that over time the area of the horn that was dyed degraded and was able to flake off (I've experienced this flaking myself on a few scales). The depth of dying often wasn't very deep so it could appear to be a coating. In one set of scales certain areas flaked off easily and others were well bonded, supporting the degradation idea. I would need Zak to chime in but I'm not aware of any documentation of scales being thickly coated with blackeners. Typically they would have been dyed a uniform dark and hot-pressed into shape.

Here's an example: https://books.google.com/books?id=fy...dyeing&f=false

O.K.,,, this I can run with,,, I just know that the coating/dye seems to not have penetrated the horn/shell.
The olny clue that put me into the shell arena & not the Horn arena , was the pattern /design underneath the black.

Either way, when a set of these scales come into my hands,,,, I know there is a more beautiful surface underneath.

Thank you for the reference.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hirlau

O.K.,,, this I can run with,,, I just know that the coating/dye seems to not have penetrated the horn/shell.
The olny clue that put me into the shell arena & not the Horn arena , was the pattern /design underneath the black.

Either way, when a set of these scales come into my hands,,,, I know there is a more beautiful surface underneath.

Thank you for the reference.

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Horn can have very beautiful mottled and swirling/streaking patterns. Unfortunately for some, the aesthetic for mass production was often a uniform shiny black :)

I figured they were horn at first (mine at least) but a blond streaked horn after cleaned as mine do not have the coloration of John's but are more blonde at the wedge and black at the pivot end .. (which again made me happy I have some streaked honey horn coming to rescale with to sorta match) , but I do admit that the turtle idea after John's post (maybe a diff type of turtle I thought )made me wonder cause they are smoothest natural scale I have ever saw ..
either way I just cant wait to put them in the new scales

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gooser

I figured they were horn at first (mine at least) but a blond streaked horn after cleaned as mine do not have the coloration of John's but are more blonde at the wedge and black at the pivot end .. (which again made me happy I have some streaked honey horn coming to rescale with to sorta match) , but I do admit that the turtle idea after John's post (maybe a diff type of turtle I thought )made me wonder cause they are smoothest natural scale I have ever saw ..
either way I just cant wait to put them in the new scales

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I just got some honey ox horn in a few days ago. I've had a hard time finding honey buffalo horn.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by engine46

I just got some honey ox horn in a few days ago. I've had a hard time finding honey buffalo horn.

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I found it but it was a minimum order so I was waiting , but then I found more .. :)

Is this EZ-Off Oven Cleaner were talking about her?
If so I'm going to get some right now!

CMP

This is what lies underneath that "black coating" on those scales. I believe the scales to be turtle, as many turtles are seen wth the black coating in the wild, such as those swamp , water turtles,, that coating is removed to get those nice combs & such you see. I could be wrong, but maybe not,,,
45 minutes of EZ-Off Heavy Duty on the entire razor, ate the black off,,, brushed off with a toothbrush & dish soap,,, loosened the surface rust, left the washers shiny,,, the blade was wirked with steel wool & 3m paper,,,,

Excellent work, John

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cheetahmeatpheonix

Is this EZ-Off Oven Cleaner were talking about her?
If so I'm going to get some right now!

CMP

This is what lies underneath that "black coating" on those scales. I believe the scales to be turtle, as many turtles are seen wth the black coating in the wild, such as those swamp , water turtles,, that coating is removed to get those nice combs & such you see. I could be wrong, but maybe not,,,
45 minutes of EZ-Off Heavy Duty on the entire razor, ate the black off,,, brushed off with a toothbrush & dish soap,,, loosened the surface rust, left the washers shiny,,, the blade was wirked with steel wool & 3m paper,,,,

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Yes, it was,,,continue to monitor the effect at 30 minutes,,,,,maybe 30 will be enough,,,, I pulled it at 45 minutes from the sink & cleaned.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cheetahmeatpheonix

Is this EZ-Off Oven Cleaner were talking about her?
If so I'm going to get some right now!

CMP

This is what lies underneath that "black coating" on those scales. I believe the scales to be turtle, as many turtles are seen wth the black coating in the wild, such as those swamp , water turtles,, that coating is removed to get those nice combs & such you see. I could be wrong, but maybe not,,,
45 minutes of EZ-Off Heavy Duty on the entire razor, ate the black off,,, brushed off with a toothbrush & dish soap,,, loosened the surface rust, left the washers shiny,,, the blade was wirked with steel wool & 3m paper,,,,

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Yeah, if you own a Harley it also works good on getting melted rubber or plastic off exhaust pipes from a passengers shoes or boots but you must warm it up first & put a piece of cardboard behind the part you spray because it will ruin the paint on a frame or motor. You must warm it up first for it to work. Sorry........didn't mean to go off topic!