3/4+ Joseph Rodgers & Sons Cutlers Sheffield Near Wedge

Found this one in France and I couldn't pass it up.

A 3/4+ (.78) Round point Joseph Rodgers (&) Sons Cutlers Sheffield near wedge.
Pointed, horn scales that are slightly curved. Definitely has small jimps or flutting on top.
Maybe on the bottom as well. From the photos I don't see any active rust. Beautiful lines and curves.

The odd thing (for me) was the stamp on the tang. It didn't say Cutlers To Their Majesties. Just Cutlers. I've been searching around to see if I could find another one with similar markings. I even searched through the sub forum Jolly Rodgers. Maybe this razor belongs their as well?

Research that I found about Joseph Rodgers states "Around 1800, Rodgers’ product range broadened into razors, table cutlery and scissors and in 1821 the firm was appointed cutlers to The Royal Family for the first time."

Could this razor have been made between 1800- 1821?

Info here describes a "few key things" to look for when dating a vintage razor. The first section describes "features" of the 1800's - 1830's. Wedge grind, flutting, slightly curved scales, introduction of the shoulder and introduction to the "Monarch"




Here's what the original listing read:

Coupe chou JOSEPH RODGERS
SONS CUTLERS
SHEFFIELD

Chasses d origine CORNES

ETUI EN CUIR AVEC FERMETURE

Longueur fermé : 167 mm
longueur tranchant :74 mm
largeur tranchant : 20 mm

regardez mes autres rasoirs
il y en a pour tout les goûts et tout les prix

paiement cheque accepté si profil superieur a 20

Photos sur demande

STRAIGHT RAZOR JOSEPH RODGERS
SONS CUTLERS
SHEFFIELD

Hunts of origin CORNES

LEATHER CASE WITH CLOSURE

Closed length: 167 mm
cutting length: 74 mm
cutting width: 20 mm

Thanks for looking

Cheetah

Thinking about this now. Those scales seem to be in too good of condition for a 200 year old razor. Not sure. Maybe they are replacements or restored. I will ask the seller.

Its quite possible they are, if the pouch is leather, and has been kept oiled to keep its suppleness. It may have transfered to the scales, as well as for the condition of the blade, which looks very good as well.

TBH, it looks like a French razor. Perhaps made for the French market?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by outback

Its quite possible they are, if the pouch is leather, and has been kept oiled to keep its suppleness. It may have transfered to the scales, as well as for the condition of the blade, which looks very good as well.

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I never thought of it that way, regarding the scales. That makes total sense. I'll really have to get in there with a fine tooth comb when the blade comes but definitely from the photos the blade does look GOOD!

Thanks for the feed back.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sharptonn

TBH, it looks like a French razor. Perhaps made for the French market?

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Go on.....I'm listening...lol

Can anyone help with age verification of this and has anyone seen a Joseph Rodgers stamp like this before.

In the Jolly Rodgers sub forum there is one blade that looks similar. It is a round point as well but the tail is more robust. I can't read the tang cause the photo is blurry. Page 12

Thanks

CMP

Not that I am an expert but from threads with a lot of historical information in them has left me feeling like the tail is not correct for a razor from pre 1821. The absence of the monarch endorsement is puzzling.

The "Cutlers to Their Majesties" mark refers to the fact that Joseph Rodgers & Sons won royal appointments under multiple monarchs, starting with George IV in 1820. (In fact, they were appointed royal cutlers five times in succession). So the earliest possible date they could have claimed to be cutlers to plural majesties would have been during the reign of William IV 1830-1837. Of course, Rodgers may not have started using the mark till even later than that....

Without knowing when exactly Rodgers cooked up the idea to start advertising their multiple royal appointments in the form of tang stamps, I'd probably date your razor between 1830-1840. (Victoria succeeded to the throne in 1837, and if Rodgers hadn't started using the "Cutlers to Their Majesties" mark during William IV's reign, they were certainly using it during Victoria's reign).

Attachment 308977

Quote:

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Originally Posted by outback

Its quite possible they are, if the pouch is leather, and has been kept oiled to keep its suppleness. It may have transfered to the scales, as well as for the condition of the blade, which looks very good as well.

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Hey Outback,

I just heard back from the seller about the condition of the scales.
This is what he had to say:

"Hello
Joseph Rodgers began the razors early 1800, this one should rather date from the end of 19 th. Before 1901, because after the razor were marked England on silk. the scales are d-origins, I do not redo the scales. I clean the razors with the hands without machine and leave them entirely of origin.
I think it has been well preserved in its leather case.
I'll be in New York next week, I could almost have delivered it to you by hand.
I wish you a good day. cordially"

Beautiful old razor. I agree with sharptonn that it looks like it could be styled for the French market. Pointed razor scale tips are an almost exclusively French thing in my experience. The sweeping undercut tang style is also something I also associate with French market razors, but more relatively "modern" (post-1870) styling. Yet that blade style and grind is definitely really old. The tails I've seen on pre-1830 razors seem to be much stubbier and thicker than this one.

It's a mix of things, maybe a transitional late old-style razor or an early new-style razor. Joseph Rodgers that I see tend to be very traditionally styled British choppers, so this one is pretty unusual. So being a non-British marketed razor seems very plausible to me.

On an interesting side note, I recently dug up an out-of-print book I bought years ago called "A Razor Anthology", kind of a collection of razor-related articles from the publishers of Knife World magazine from 1995. Overall it's kind of boring, but it has a great article titled "Razors of the Bowie Men." It turns out that most Bowie Knives sold and used in the United States between 1830 - 1870 were made by a handful of Sheffield companies I only associated with razors. I knew they made knives, but I always figured boring household knives, not something as associated with adventure as Bowie knives in the mid-1800s. Pretty cool.

Joseph Rodgers was apparently one of the key smaller high-quality Bowie knife makers, along with Wm. Greaves & Sons. Wostenholm I*XL brand was the largest, along with Wade & Butcher.

These read like a list of my favorite Sheffield razor makers, and I just thought it was interesting that they played such a badass part in American frontier history.

It does look like a french razor. Perhaps it is even a forgery.

Joseph Rodger, as Pradier in France and several other makers were in trial several times due to falsifiers.

It would be, imho, if it is the case, as collectible as a real Rodger. ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Thaeris

It does look like a french razor. Perhaps it is even a forgery.

Joseph Rodger, as Pradier in France and several other makers were in trial several times due to falsifiers.

It would be, imho, if it is the case, as collectible as a real Rodger. ;)

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BLASPHEMY....LOL. I hope it's a real JOSEPH RODGERS

There are several threads on here addressing all these "other rodgers" and one of them is called "Jospeh Rodgers - a query":

Manah had replied in the thread as saying:

9. And Joseph Rodgers & Sons.
According to the form of your blade. I think, the Joseph Rodgers & Sons company is closer.
From Henry T.Lummus article:
"In 1821, Joseph Rodgers and Sons secured an appointment as cutlers to His Majesty King George IV, an honor which encouraged them to greater efforts and stimulated their competitors. About that time arose the practices of scoring the top and bottom of the tang with file-cuts or flutings to keep the fingers from slipping, and of stamping the initial of the sovereign (G R, which became WR on the accession of William IV in 1830, and VR when the reign of Queen Victoria began in 1837)".
So. Jimmy, I'm sure, your razor was made before 1821.


So the blade has the correct Name - "Joseph Rodgers", it has Sons (plural). I think the actual "&" is missing. It's even got the fluting so everything seems in the right order but the Monarch Stamp.

I hope that I'm using Manah's reply in the right context

I Hope it all get's solved.
Funny and complementary, an expert Frenchman would agree to my assessment.

The pointed ends, as was pointed-out.
Blade is heavy, chunky, round-pointed, and lightly-ground as the majority of mid-1800's French blades were.
Just by looking at lots of razors, my first word was 'FRENCH'.

An old Rodgers is more likely. Very old?

You should check with Voidmonster or Altus, but the shape tells me around 1860 french razor.

Beautiful razor and the historical mysteries just add to the mystique, no? And I love that old leather pouch!

It is definitely a forgery! Note Sheffield is misspelled. I’ve seen some inexplicable misspellings on razors, but never “Scheffield”.

Thaeris is on the money here. Probably French, 1860’s or so, and a very collectable forgery!

The awesome thing about razor forgeries from the era is that they’re much rarer than the real deal and often just as good.

I’ve nabbed a few fake Rodgers, but none so blatant as this, and it’s wonderful!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Voidmonster

It is definitely a forgery! Note Sheffield is misspelled. I’ve seen some inexplicable misspellings on razors, but never “Scheffield”.

Thaeris is on the money here. Probably French, 1860’s or so, and a very collectable forgery!

The awesome thing about razor forgeries from the era is that they’re much rarer than the real deal and often just as good.

I’ve nabbed a few fake Rodgers, but none so blatant as this, and it’s wonderful!

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Thanks for the addition of all this useful info Mr. Void. I totally skipped over the misspelling and I saw what I wanted to see...an opportunity to have something that few others have. And now I have just that...lol. A FAKE.

Staring me all in the face when I get into work tomorrow.

Never a dull moment around here.

Thanks again

Cheetah

Forgery is the most sincere form of flattery. I'm probably showing my ignorance here but I remember hearing a story about at least one particular forger whose give away was that his fakes were actually better than the original.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cheetahmeatpheonix

Thanks for the addition of all this useful info Mr. Void. I totally skipped over the misspelling and I saw what I wanted to see...an opportunity to have something that few others have. And now I have just that...lol. A FAKE.

Staring me all in the face when I get into work tomorrow.

Never a dull moment around here.

Thanks again

Cheetah

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It’s a seriously cool and rare find!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Voidmonster

It’s a seriously cool and rare find!

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Too cool to fool, Man!

Attachment 309238