Nagamasa Kamisori

Scored this one from Ebay. I think I did alright. I see what looks like the Tamahagane mark there. Thoughts?
It sure looks like NOS (no hone wear whatsoever). The handle is a bit rough, so I might look to wrap it somehow.

http://i1090.photobucket.com/albums/...s/IMG_9375.jpg

http://i1090.photobucket.com/albums/...s/IMG_9373.jpg

http://i1090.photobucket.com/albums/...s/IMG_9374.jpg

http://i1090.photobucket.com/albums/...s/IMG_9368.jpg

Tamahagane Mark?
http://i1090.photobucket.com/albums/...s/IMG_9371.jpg

Do you have a less reflective pic of the omote, the non stamped side & maybe an end shot. Something looks wrong in that 3rd pic but maybe the light.
To me , it looks as if there is very little ridge or shoulder.

Here are a few profile shots:
http://i1090.photobucket.com/albums/...s/IMG_9380.jpg

http://i1090.photobucket.com/albums/...s/IMG_9378.jpg

http://i1090.photobucket.com/albums/...s/IMG_9376.jpg

Shoulder looks very high, like it's been reground. The stamped side or ura looks fine but that should be the case as it gets the lest honing.

If it's been reground, it's a very clean job. There is no hone wear on the ura at all, so if it's a regrind, someone honed it with great care. Either way, I'll give it a run with extra care on the pressure and see if I can get a shaving edge. It is nowhere near shave ready, so I'll start it on a Norton 8k with slurry and go from there.

if it is reground only the omote is reground. You can't regrind the ura . The edge steel is too thin. Here is a cross section of an Iwasaki to explain what I mean.

I do not see tamahagane in the kangi, the first kanji is there the second is not clear as far as I can tell.

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

if it is reground only the omote is reground. You can't regrind the ura . The edge steel is too thin. Here is a cross section of an Iwasaki to explain what I mean.

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There's no question that the profile is a bit different from other kamisori I've seen, but I don't see evidence of honing or grinding. I'll just try honing it and see what happens.

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Originally Posted by mainaman

I do not see tamahagane in the kangi, the first kanji is there the second is not clear as far as I can tell.

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The characters look like the tamahagane kanji to me. I can't see any other kanji with anything to do with razors that are even close to tamhagane. They aren't 100% clear, but the closest approximation for what I see say tamahagane.

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Originally Posted by jdto

There's no question that the profile is a bit different from other kamisori I've seen, but I don't see evidence of honing or grinding. I'll just try honing it and see what happens.

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Ok, let us know how you fare.

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Originally Posted by jdto

The characters look like the tamahagane kanji to me. I can't see any other kanji with anything to do with razors that are even close to tamhagane. They aren't 100% clear, but the closest approximation for what I see say tamahagane.

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here is how tamahagane kanji looks like

Attachment 87929

the kanji you have does not look like tamahagane to me.

You can see how it looks on a bunch of Iwasakis here
Kanji Help..slightly off topic Tamahagane?

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Originally Posted by mainaman

here is how tamahagane kanji looks like

Attachment 87929

the kanji you have does not look like tamahagane to me.

You can see how it looks on a bunch of Iwasakis here
Kanji Help..slightly off topic Tamahagane?

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I know what the kanji look like for Tamahagane and I have a few different drawings of them right here on my desk. Please tell me what your interpretation is for the kanji on my blade. They are not the most clear, I'll agree, but I don't see other shapes having anything to do with razors that are even remotely close.

From what I've been able to glean, they say tamahagane-uchi.

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Originally Posted by jdto

I know what the kanji look like for Tamahagane and I have a few different drawings of them right here on my desk. Please tell me what your interpretation is for the kanji on my blade. They are not the most clear, I'll agree, but I don't see other shapes having anything to do with razors that are even remotely close.

From what I've been able to glean, they say tamahagane-uchi.

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hopefully someone that knows Japanese will chime in and clear that up.

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Originally Posted by mainaman

hopefully someone that knows Japanese will chime in and clear that up.

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That would be ideal. It also doesn't help that they stamps aren't very clear.

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Originally Posted by jdto

That would be ideal. It also doesn't help that they stamps aren't very clear.

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here is one that looks like tamahagne but the first kanji is not quite the same so it is unclear to me if it the real deal or not:

I'll try to take a better photo of the kanji, as there are some details that don't show up. I have looked at a lot of photos and I've seen photos of razors from this same maker. Hopefully it's tamahagane, but if not, it's still a nice razor. Cheers!

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Originally Posted by mainaman

here is how tamahagane kanji looks like

Attachment 87929

the kanji you have does not look like tamahagane to me.

You can see how it looks on a bunch of Iwasakis here
Kanji Help..slightly off topic Tamahagane?

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I don't know a Kanji from a soup can, but here's a link to the classifieds with a Tamahagane which shows the markings very clear. Iwasaki Tamahagane vintage 5/8" *REDUCED* - Straight Razor Place Classifieds

Regards,
Howard

It is Tamahagane uchi. Not much else I can tell you.

Thanks, Jim.

I have a few ponderances concerning kamisori. Maybe I can get some of that cleared up without hijacking the thread lol.

I have gained little experience through swords. I would not expect to see them actually engrave tamahange on the blade, just the smiths signature. Now I do not know kanji, nor what things are regarding the kamisori production in japan. But given a razor is what it is, I would not expect it to be made in japan and not be made out of either tamahagne, or osohange (smith made tamahagne, recycling of the metal in slag from making a sword, a common source for apprentices to make their own). On japanese swords the signature is out the outside, the omote side. the ura side stays closest to the body. even in the way a sword is displayed, it is signed such that the signature, the omote side, faces outward. that is another point of confusion, i have read in here that you shave with the omote side against the face. that seems really contradictory. now onto a little more about omote being outside. a common cutting medium is tatami-omote, the outside covering of tatami mats.

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Originally Posted by LameBMX

I have a few ponderances concerning kamisori. Maybe I can get some of that cleared up without hijacking the thread lol.

I have gained little experience through swords. I would not expect to see them actually engrave tamahange on the blade, just the smiths signature. Be that as it may some razors are inscribed "tamahagane"( see pic below.)
Now I do not know kanji, nor what things are regarding the kamisori production in japan. But given a razor is what it is, I would not expect it to be made in japan and not be made out of either tamahagne, or osohange (smith made tamahagne, recycling of the metal in slag from making a sword, a common source for apprentices to make their own). Apples & oranges here really. Swords compared to kamisori & even kataba kitchen knives have different construction. The latter 2 are made of a lamination of iron & then whatever the smith chooses, Swdish steel, blue or white steel etc etc.
On japanese swords the signature is out the outside, the omote side. the ura side stays closest to the body. even in the way a sword is displayed, it is signed such that the signature, the omote side, faces outward. that is another point of confusion, i have read in here that you shave with the omote side against the face. that seems really contradictory. now onto a little more about omote being outside. a common cutting medium is tatami-omote, the outside covering of tatami mats.
It is somewhat confusing. Kitchen knives are signed on the omote. Chisels too are signed that way The signature on swords is on the outside also known as the front side (omote). The edge position however will change if it is Tachi or Katana so there it can be an arbitrary term. However the working side of a single bevel razor is technically the front side. So the back (ura) of a tool is different to the back of a sword. You would rarely use the back of a chisel against the work surface as it would dig into the job. Same with kamisori. Yes, many of us do use both sides but you may understand the chisel comparison. Why the kamisori is signed on the ura I do not know but on kataba kitchen knives, wood chisels, planes & kamisori the non ridged side is the called ura.

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Link here shows setting up the ura on a wood plane. You can see it is the flatter side. Ura-dashi (tapping out) | Tools ::

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Originally Posted by mainaman

here is one that looks like tamahagne but the first kanji is not quite the same so it is unclear to me if it the real deal or not:

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It has been a while, but I will give it a try.

Attachment 88087

Going from left to right (not the usual way of writing), the first two kanji together means "special", "rare", "top quality"... etc. The 3rd kanji looks like "Gold" but is missing a couple of details. The use of precious metals/stones/jewels kanji is typical in Asia writting to indicate high quality... you should look at it as an adjective. The 4th kanji means "steel."

Together, it translate to "special precious steel." It is not the same as tamahagne for sure, which translates to "Jade Steel."

Attachment 88088

The 1st two kanji on the Kamisori in question, to my eyes, means tamahagne. BUT, here is the big issue... there is a 3rd kanji. it means "hammered." One does not say tamahagne "made"... it is either tamahagne or some other kind of metals. Maybe someone knows better as why?

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Originally Posted by Hopper

It has been a while, but I will give it a try.

Going from left to right (not the usual way of writing), the first two kanji together means "special", "rare", "top quality"... etc. The 3rd kanji looks like "Gold" but is missing a couple of details. The use of precious metals/stones/jewels kanji is typical in Asia writting to indicate high quality... you should look at it as an adjective. The 4th kanji means "steel."

Together, it translate to "special precious steel." It is not the same as tamahagne for sure, which translates to "Jade Steel."

The 1st two kanji on the Kamisori in question, to my eyes, means tamahagne. BUT, here is the big issue... there is a 3rd kanji. it means "hammered." One does not say tamahagne "made"... it is either tamahagne or some other kind of metals????

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Tamahagne is commonly referred to as jewel steel. At least when it comes to the slab coming out of the tatara, and sword making. I hope that helps clear things up some.

onimaru55:

yea that chisel comparison does clear thing up a lot. Specially when you consider the working face of the tool. On another note, i am pretty certain that even tachi were signed for omote/signature to be out when worn properly, edge down. I have seen some slick suriage's of tachi into katana. signatures cut off then re-mounted on the proper side for a katana, or cut around signature and make it thin. cut slot into katana omote, and bend signature over from tachi omote to katana omote. The norm is signature cut off, or a portion left on the katana ura. anyways back to the discussion. I am fairly certain they are pretty much bound to using differing grades of tamahange to produce a japanese sword. not that they cannot make a sword out of something else, but to be nihonto it needs to be tamahagne. i am of course unsure of the core metal, but fairly certain it is different grade of carbon steel (most likely also from tatara, but not the jewel steel), not iron. and this is from my humble limited knowledge.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hopper

The 1st two kanji on the Kamisori in question, to my eyes, means tamahagne. BUT, here is the big issue... there is a 3rd kanji. it means "hammered." One does not say tamahagne "made"... it is either tamahagne or some other kind of metals. Maybe someone knows better as why?

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Hammered as it pertains to forging?

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Originally Posted by LameBMX

On another note, i am pretty certain that even tachi were signed for omote/signature to be out when worn properly, edge down.

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Exactly. The omote on swords is determined by how it is worn. The edge can be facing up or down depending on the sword but on kataba tools the asymmetric shape determines front & back.

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Originally Posted by jdto

Hammered as it pertains to forging?

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Right. Forged might have been a better translation.