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I came across this razor and the wooden box that it came in a few years ago at an estate sale in up state New Jersey. From what I have found out it will date pre 1800s because of the blade edge and shank running in a straight line along with the short tail. I know a little about the cast steel stamping but the question is, what is the crown and letters R. P. representative of.
I am new to the forum and any thoughts or answers would really be appreciated.
Attachment 113780
I can't help with the markings or dating (though it does look 1700s or early 1800s to me), but I wanted to say that you have found a lovely razor there.
Any chance you could get a better closeup of the crown and RP? I'm not wholly sure it's a crown. Early cutler's marks were sometimes not as ... figural ... as all that.
That said, it might be similar to Shepherd's 'Wolf' crown.
Unfortunately, are are a lot of options for who or what R.P. might be, but first to pop into my head is someone from the Parkin clan. That doesn't seem to pan out though as there are no R. Parkinses registered as apprentices in the right field and timeframe or as cutlers in the directories.
For the age of that razor, it is in superb condition! Definitely a treasure.
... And I'd guess it to have been made between 1780-1810.
A razor similar to this has been my exclusive daily shaver for several months now. Sure is fun to shave with something this old! Nice score.
That one's a keeper! Fix up the edge & it'll last another 200 years. Excellent catch!
Lovely old blade. We refer to those as 'stub tails' because of the short monkey tail. The way the cutting edge runs into the tang dates the razor along with the absolutely straight scales. In the early 1800s , probably around 1810, according to Robert Doyle, the scales begin to curve slightly and there begins to be a transition from cutting edge to tang. Probably too many split thumb pads caused that.
So as we know, the crown signifies Regent with the initial being the name of the king or , in Victoria's case, queen. So how does the P fit in ? Well, this from the global Wiki might explain it. If it is what I think it is it stands for Prince Regent and that would date the razor to between 1800 and 1811. See the quote from the wiki below ;
From 1811 to 1820 George III suffered a severe bout of what is now believed to be porphyria, an illness rendering him incapable of ruling. His son, the future George IV, ruled in his stead as Prince Regent. During the Regency and his own reign, the power of the monarchy declined and by the time of his successor, William IV, the monarch was no longer able to effectively interfere with parliamentary power. In 1834, William dismissed the Whig Prime Minister, William Lamb, 2nd Viscount Melbourne, and appointed a Tory, Sir Robert Peel. In the ensuing elections, however, Peel lost. The King had no choice but to recall Lord Melbourne. During William IV's reign the Reform Act 1832, which reformed parliamentary representation, was passed. Together with others passed later in the century, the Act led to an expansion of the electoral franchise, and the rise of the House of Commons as the most important branch of Parliament.[61]
I do want to thank you for your most useful information. I think this may well be the answer to my question. I did a little more reading on the 'Regency Period' (RP) or the Prince Regent (Prince of Wales) and everything seems to correspond.
To the best of my knowledge, the stamps referring to the monarch didn't begin until 1822. Earlier than that and the crown was a cutler's mark (like those stamped WOLF), so in this case the RP is most likely the initials of the maker.
That might be the case. Otherwise it is even more odd than it would have been if it does stand for the Regent Prince. I say that because according to Robert A. Doyle's "Collecting Straight Razors" the blade and the scales on this razor look like pre 1800. No distinct tang and absolutely straight scales.Quote:
Originally Posted by Voidmonster
Due to the wiki article saying the 'Regent Prince' began his tenure in 1811 I thought it was late for that blade and scale design. If the regent marks didn't begin until 1822 that is not only past the time for the Regent Prince but too far removed for the style of the blade. :thinking:
Here is an enlarged look at the crown and letters. Sorry it isn't any clearer, I'm waiting on my new camera for Christmas.
Attachment 113844
Where is Neil Miller now that we really need him ? ....... :angel:
Attachment 113850
In my initial research into this razor I came across a button from the Revolutionary War that had a crown with the letters RP under it. It was off of a coat issued to the Royal Provincials that was issued by the British to the colonists that fought for England. I sent the following email to a member of the Royalist Institute and received the following reply.
Greetings,
I have a question in regards to some of the gear issued to the Royal Provincials during the Revolutionary War. I have seen pictures of the buttons on the English issued jackets that the Royal Provincials wore. They had a crown with the initials R P under the crown. I have in my possession a pre 1800s straight razor that is marked R P under a crown and Cast Steel. I do know that cast steel was invented in 1772 and used early on predominately in England. I also know that the razor is pre 1800 by the way it is shaped.
My question is could the razor have been issued in the accouterments that the Royalist were issued. I have found list and references that tell many of the things they were issued but they end up saying and other accouterments. The crown and R P marks seem to lead me to the Royal Provincials. I would really appreciate any insight you could give me. By the way the razor came from an estate sale in upper New Jersey.
The reply that I received:
Razors for soldiers are not part of what the government issued to them. The term "accoutrements" is very specific, and refers only to cartridge boxes/pouches and bayonet belts. Razors would have been owned by every soldier though, as this was a very clean shaven period of history, with no facial hair whatsoever permitted in either the British or American armies. These items were purchased by each soldier mostly through the captain in whose company they belonged, and would have been considered as part of the soldier's "necessaries," meaning those additional items over and above the standard uniform issued him each year. They were mostly bought locally, and a deduction would be made in the soldier's pay for the cost of the item.
Now, as to your razor in particular... I cannot say definitely. The crown is very different from that used in the RP Buttons and by the British in general. But does it preclude it from being a Loyalist artifact? Not necessarily. This sort of material culture is not my strong point, being better with clothing and arms than items of this nature.
???? I am still wondering?
I'm pretty sure the crown doesn't represent royalty, here.Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyHAD
this is very very interesting , although id love to score a razor like this , im having a blast reading this thread and the history involved in it .. !!!!
I'd PM manah, martin103, and Neilmiller for more info. Those 3 have wisdom seeping from their bones on stuff like this.
First off all - Jimmy: I have been sick!
Secondly, that's not a crown of any type. It is a typesetters representation of a fleur de lys - an iris flower. It's not like the boy scouts one, but that's what it is!
I have gone through a number of Sheffield Directories (1774, 1787, 1823, 1919) and have not found 'RP' under that particular motif. There are plenty of R.P.s from all those directories, but either with different marks, or different trades (spring knife makers, spotted knife makers, table knife makers, silver platers, steel makers, scissor makers and factors) so not really worth commenting on.
The motif in question was quite prevalent in the 1774 directory, but falls off to a handful of examples in the 1919 directory.
Thirdly, although a few makers do have their initials below the motif like this one:
Attachment 113945
Some are a bit more cryptic:
Attachment 113946
Attachment 113949
and some are just plain unhelpful:
Attachment 113947
Attachment 113948
NB: note that early examples of 'J' are printed as the latin version - 'I'
Of course, the razor might not have been made in Sheffield, but I doubt that. More research is called for!
Regards,
Neil
