Should this be in the Library? Rolling X stroke - Straight Razor Place Library
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Should this be in the Library? Rolling X stroke - Straight Razor Place Library
.......yes
What is wrong with it?Quote:
Originally Posted by WW243
I guess a video clip is better than pictures, but I am not sure if it can be embedded in the Wiki.
It appears to me that the shoulder is being honed.Quote:
Originally Posted by mainaman
And I could be wrong, but I thought I was told not to lift the spine doing a rolling X and the photos show two different razors, one clearly honing the shoulder.
I was under the impression you don't actually lift the spine, just roll the applied pressure. In a severe case of reshaping or a warped blade it might be necessary to lift the spine.
Yep, same here. I won't quote a honemeister, not being able to find the post but I asked this question about lifting the spine and he said not to....Quote:
Originally Posted by prodigy
Honestly, I don't care what someone chooses to have in the library as that is above my pay grade. Just wondering
Im pretty sure you rock the spine slightly as you move through the stroke. I imagine that depends how extreme the smile is of the razor. A spine that follows a smiling edge wont sit flat on the hone, so you are trying to achieve contact of the whole edge by rocking through the stroke. Sometimes for one part of the edge to make contact another part needs to come off the hone slightly. I think the library version shows it pretty well.
An example of honing more exaggerated smiles.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHZ4rmL-6Fg
The pictures show the rolling X-stroke correctly IMO.
When the motion starts the the heel should be in contact with the stone. If the blade is not perfectly ground it could happen that the spine is off the hone for portions of the length of the blade. As the blade moves across the stone due to the nature of the honing motion all of the edge will make contact with the hone surface.
It is rather difficult to describe which is why it is such a confusing topic
The spine and the corresponding part of the edge must stay in contact with the hone at the same moment in time..
The ripple of water in front of the edge must stay there as the edge moves across the hone.. Don't let that ripple go under the blade, adjust the angle and pressure to keep it there throughout the stroke while keeping the spine in contact too.. Easy huh :p
Most of the Vids and pictures are slightly exaggerated to show the motion, this actually leads to more confusion :( to one of the most confusing topics in honing.
edit: Or exactly as Charlie shows/tells you in that vid :) The heel forward part is the most important part IMHO and learning to adjust that heel forward angle for each smile just takes experience
The way I adapted the rolling X was from years of sharpening clip point pocket knives. If you've done that you'll know what I mean. The spine and the parallel bevel area must be on the hone together, but there will be times where, in order to make that happen, other areas, fore or aft, will be off the hone, if only slightly. That is the 'rolling' motion. If the blade won't lay flat on the hone, due to a smiling profile, or a warped spine, there is no way to keep all of the spine on the hone at all times ..... hence the rolling X ...... IME.
There seems to be a confusion (hand raised) between lifting the spine over the hone and lifting the spine off the hone.
Some of this makes the razor sound like a flexible object, like you could bend the spine to keep in contact with the hone.
If you are lifting the spine while the razor is over the hone you are effectively freehanding the blade as you would a knife. Some of us might be skilled enough to keep a small even bevel doing this. I am not.
Finally, there is a difference between regulated torque and lifting the spine? Wait...one more query: rocking would seem to be a literal fact if the spine of the razor is concave...along its length? Doesn't the bevel reflect the spine?
It can be as subtle as a transfer of pressure from heel to the toe while going through the stroke or as dramatic as the video of Charlie honing his smiler. Depends on the razor and depends on the condition of that razor. If you have a particular razor that is giving you a headache maybe the pros can give it some attention. your question was if the wiki was right or not and I believe the consensus that in theory it is.
Well in 2012 I sent out one razor to a pro. I haven't had to again since. Not that I don't respect experience but simply that I looked at honing as an enjoyable skill to learn and looked forward to being self sufficient.
On a side note, why would a mod take down ones post and not have the decency to tell you why they did this? Did they make a moral decision, or did someone object to your post? Is it unacceptable to meet snark with snark?
Ok bro, now i'm lost.:thinking:
Rolling -x is a simple concept, with a little bit more involved execution. As Glen pointed out all that is needed is to have simultaneous contact of bevel and spine above the bevel with the stone at the same time. As the stroke progresses bevel and spine above it have to simultaneously contact the hone. The point of the stroke is to deal with blades where the spine is off and one can't have full contact over the full length of the blade. The stroke also works well for smiling blades.Quote:
Originally Posted by WW243
You asked a simple question and got simple answer. If your question was more elaborate to describe what you mean than you probably would have gotten a different answer. Attacking other members because you did not like the answer is not going to fly, especially when it is not relevant to the discussion. The reasons for deletion were also stated.Quote:
Originally Posted by WW243
I hope we can keep this thread on topic now.
I think glen put it in the most simple terms. As long as you're under cutting the water from heel to toe on every stroke you're good.
Charlie's video of a rolling x is my go to just because the exaggeration of the motion needed with his smiler is so easy to interpret visually.
I don't think it can be stressed enough that each razor is an individual and each razor needs its own stroke. I have found that honing is mostly experience based like most things in life. All the info needed to hone is in the wiki, imo, it's the fact that reading how to do something and actually doing are 2 completely different things. What didn't translate well for me was the fact that 99% of honing is accomplished in the bevel set. I put the cart before the horse and wondered why my pretty shiny bevels left patches of stubble and blood in their wake.The bevel set is where you find what angle of approach and stroke that that inparticular razor needs and you create the edge that will eventually clean you beautiful little face of your beard.
In other words, I think an embedded video or link would be most helpful.
Every razor is going to behave differently on the hones. When we say that the spine is coming off the hone, we don't mean that you are actually free handing it. The spine is still in contact with the hone, just the part at the toe remains in contact so that the smile makes contact. I don't think the entire spine is ever fully removed, otherwise the bevel would be thrown off. Sometimes razors that have been improperly honed will need to be honed into the stabilizers. If the edge has been honed enough, you don't have an option but to eat into the stabilizer so that the edge can contact the hone.
Maybe somebody should take all the info presented in this thread and go update that Wiki Article :shrug:
Jimbo and Gugi can explain how to do that if you are interested :)
The wiki is member driven it isn't just for Staff
ps: You need to recontour the Shoulder if you are hitting it while honing, or it will either not hone the very edge or create a Heel hook..
Ok, I'm honing in on the rolling X :o which seems to have more than one definition. Charlie Lewis lifts the spine of the smiling blade out of parallel with the hone, as it leaves the hone. In a perfect world you would simply move a razor down the hone with a spine that was parallel to the hone, a perfect grind (for a non smiling razor).Quote:
Originally Posted by prodigy
I think I get slightly obsessive over words.
I would like to see an expert take several razors, smiling, uneven honewear, warped blade etc. and make a video similar to Charlie Lewis' but with a little more light and in slower motion...I think his camera setup is an excellent aid, close up head on.
If I overthink the geometry of the rolling X my brain still scrambles slightly because one is suggesting a roll, when you are actually altering the angle of a plane.
The movement of the hands and arms are quite 'rolling.'
Well, I vote we don't do that. Too much of this palaver is one monkey-like member thrashing about in public.Quote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
You can edit me out and add the other members, I won't mind.
My apologies if you thought my post was snarky. I am no word smith and what I meant in my comment was possibly to bring this up in maybe advanced honing thread so that it would get some more pro attention. Not that you should just send out your razor. Some folks also find Rolling x strokes easier to realize on narrower hones. Helps them focus better on spine to edge contact and gives more rocking room if needed. Good luckQuote:
Originally Posted by WW243
Perhaps the confusion is that honing a Smiling razor is different than honing a Warped razor, (Concave/Convex), while both use the same stroke.
The Wiki shows Russel demonstrating honing for both issues using the same stroke,(two different sets of photos), a Warped razor, Concave side with the heel off the stone. The same stroke will work for smiling or warped razors, but only the top series of photos will work for the Concave side of a warped razor.
The second series of photos, that Russel calls the Rolling Hone is the same stroke Charlie is using in his video on a Smiling Razor. It will not work on the Concave side of a Warped razor, but will with Smiling and Convex side or a warped razor.
The spine has to be on the stone the whole time to get a consistent angle, just not the complete spine at the same time, for a smiling edge or a warped spine.
For a warped razor, the Convex Side uses the standard rolling X, rolling or lifting the heel end up, as the razor makes contact, down the middle of the stone. This is the same stroke as a Smiling razor, (Charlie’s video)
The concave side, hones on the half of the stone closest to where the X will finish, so that the heel and corresponding spine, come off the stone and allows the bevel to ride on only half or a small portion of the stone near the edge. The heel and corresponding part of the spine has to come off the stone for the center part of the bevel to make contact, rolling is down, not up, off the edge and away from the stone, on that side.
It is the same stroke, on different parts of the stone, with a different objective for different issues.
The Wiki is fine, just difficult to explain, demonstrating, two different issues, using the same stroke on different parts of the stone. If we could see the water in the photos you would see, where the bevel and edge are making contact.
This might help...
Attachment 213383
Yep, same here. I won't quote a honemeister, not being able to find the post but I asked this question about lifting the spine and he said not to....
The amount of “lift is proportional to the amount of curve (smile), or warp on the convex side, usually not more than a millimeter. So the lift or rock, is really just a pressure shift and the spine stays on the stone. A lot depends on the grind, wedge vs. hollow, where the blade will just flex.
Attachment 213384
For all but very warped or large Sheffield smiles, a pressure shift is all you need.
Either way some sharpie ink will quickly tell you how much you need. Ink it up and do what it needs.
Yea, he is honing into the stabilizer, if you look at the tape you can see he is putting more pressure on the heel than the toe, but he has a nice even bevel, a sign of an experienced hand
.
I would lightly grind the stabilizer, but his way is working.
Euclid: so for a warped blade you are honing off the edge of the stone? Not questioning technique just trying to understand your approach to the concave side of a warped razor.
No apologies needed. I was referring to another post. ThanksQuote:
Originally Posted by Razorfaust
Heel forward, down, across, slightly lift and loop back i.e. sweep....get out the loupe and read the trip :beer1:
Or, just do a Rolling X Stroke!
“So for a warped blade you are honing off the edge of the stone?
Yes, but only the Concave side of the blade has to fall off the stone.
A warped blade will have a convex and a concave side. On the concave side, If the heel and toe are on the stone at the same time, the middle will not touch.
On the Convex side the middle will touch and the either the heel or toe will touch but not all three. Hone the Convex side, like Charlie did, rolling/lifting the heel and hone from heel to toe, down the middle of the stone.
To hone the Concave side, either the heel or toe has to come off the stone for the middle to touch. So heel forward, as you do an X stroke and the heel falls off the stone and rides on the middle from heel to toe. Instead of lifting, you use light downward pressure, as in the first series of photos in the library post.
You will only use the edge or half the width of the stone.
A flat blade with a smile can be honed either way as long as you roll or lift the blade to hone from heel to toe.
