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Please note that as of today, it is not permitted to delete and then recreate ads just to get rid of other people's comments. Doing so will result in a timeout, and a ban from placing ads in the classifieds section for a long time. The specific duration of those periods will be decided on a case by case basis.
Could we maybe have a discussion on this? Seems to me most people delete and repost for other reasons. I personally do it when I have had an item up for a while as a bump. People also do it when their price changes. Also, as it is now, SOLD items do not rotate down to the end of the list as has been suggested. Therefore you could have 12 items on a page all of which are sold yet many more still available much further back. The ability to bump is pretty integral for selling items in this format IMO.
Deleting and reposting is not an issue in itself, although you shouldn't do this repeatedly for the same item, only to get more views imo. But if there is a legit reason, there is no problem.
The problem is that some people delete their ads just to get rid of comments they don't like.
If you sell an item that is severely overpriced, and someone posts a link to a place where that same item sells for half price, it is childish and greedy to get rid of those comments in the hope that someone doesn't know said item is overpriced and buys it.
This is still a community, where people should be able to perform transactions with a certain kind of trust, instead of expecting to be fleeced.
People trying to game the system for the sole purpose of maximizing profit in an unfair manner have no place here.
Problem solved! Thanks!Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruno
Just thought I'll note that any update in a listing can be done w/o deleting and reposting it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philadelph
Sold items do expire in few days, but not immediately.
The left panel pulls random ads, so even if an ad is not on the first page it will still be seen.
I completely agree. However, I was reprimanded by a mod for pointing this exact thing out in the comments of an item for sale.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruno
The classifieds is a relatively new piece of infrastructure for us, and we are trying to deal with things as they come along.
An outright discussion of prices is offtopic.
But it would be perfectly ok to post a comment, linking to e.g classicshaving and asking the seller if that is the same razor.
I know: we are talking about semantics here, but we are trying to find a compromise between keeping price discussions private (after all: supply and demand set the final price) and allowing a reality check to prevent newbies from falling for outrageous prices, as has sadly happened already.
As I said: we are still trying to determine a good compromise, but this is not something that is 100% correct at the first attempt. If people have questions or concerns, they can either post them here or send a PM.
This topic is actively being talked about among us, and we value all input.
How would you suggest approaching this type of situation when there isn't a similar razor to be found? If you find a pitted wade and butcher with a few water and rust spots and cracked scales, with a tiny chip in the toe being sold for 90 bucks - or a no name razor in similar condition - what should the protocol be for this type of posting? As far as I know, classicshaving doesn't have this type of stuff for sale...
I feel that newbies should not be ripped off in this type of situation just because it says "wade and butcher".
Going back to the original BST forum would be the best solution IMHO but I suppose that is a moot point. :shrug:
Why do I always miss all the good stuff? I've heard mention of razors being listed for exorbitant prices in the classifieds in the last few months but I haven't seen examples of that. Goes to show I have HAD more than RAD. Maybe someone can PM me and bring me up to speed on some examples? I don't approve of gossip unless I'm privy to it.;)
Chris L
Yeah...Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyH-AD
Not anythime soon. :)
They way we see it now (but feel free to add your thoughts) is that the description would have to match the item. And that would be where the room for discussion is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben325e
If you see a razor that looks like smurf, it could have a description like
'Old crappy razor. The scales are worth smurf, but the bolsters are in good condition, and the blade can be restored by someone who wants to spend the time. 50$'
If the blade indeed looks like it could be restored AND if the description is truthful, then the price is not up for discussion because people can ask what they want, and the potential buyer knows what he is getting into.
Otoh if that same razor gets advertised 'great collectors item. a valuable addition to anyone's collection, so sharp it cuts paper' you are free to point out that that razor has issues.
Descriptions should be truthful and are open to discussion.
And if the seller then removes and recreates the ad because of those comments, we will have alook. We count on you guys to bring such an even to our attention because we obviously don't have time to monitor the classifieds in realtime.
And if we have to conclude that this was wilfully done by someone who knows better, then we will take action.
A recently notable ad that has been pulled and re-posted repeatedly seems to have lost the comments that were with it. Is there now a way that the comments can be pulled or are moderators pulling off comments addressing price objections?
We are only pulling comments that are discussing price directly. The price is up to the seller and the actual buyer, just as in a retail shop or an actual classifieds ad in the local newspaper.
comments about accuracy of the description are allowed, as are links to identical items somewhere else.
Yup, that's what I figured.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruno
I realize it is not the moderators job to babysit inexperienced buyers and it has been clearly stated that the Classifieds are subject to caveat emptor. I hope that point can be made clearly enough to new members.
I'm just disappointed that last week a new member fell for paying $180 more than the retail price for a razor that was still commercially for sale at the time.
It's not that we moderators are sitting in our secret lair all day, thinking up new rules for the fun of it :)
We try to leave things covered under the blanket rule of 'gentlemanly behavior' as much as possible.
We only resort to 'rules' if the other approach doesn't work.
It was the incident you mentioned that triggered this rule. We did take that incident very seriously, but at the time there was nothing we could do under the classifieds policies as they existed at the time, and the sale was made before we had the time to think about it.
The difficulty for us is to find a way to walk the line between allowing free market, and still providing a place where people don't have to watch over their shoulder.
By allowing comments on the accuracy of the description, and comparison with identical (or as near as possible) items at other places, we hope to enable this without breaking our hands-off policy.
Atm, the way I described it so far is how we envision this to work. As this rule is put to the test, it can be fine tuned or amended as the need develops and we get more experience with the dynamic of the classifieds. The goal is to prevent active moderation (other than as needed for things not related to the selling) and still inspire trust so that none gets fleeced.
I merely posted a link to an identical item at a popular dealer at half the price, and received a reprimand. I have no emotions attached to this, however, I do like to see consistency and accuracy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruno
When was this?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ditch Doc
This new 'rule' was only made 2 days ago, and there was some initial confusion.
There was a couple of comments about a razor that was for sale that was the same model as one being sold at CS. I do believe it may be sold out at this time though. They went quick. In any case, someone asked if it was the same one as at CS, the OP stated he wasn't aware, and I provided a link to said razor. Now, this razor is one that many have been paying very high prices for, and considering that trend, the OP wasn't out of line. It just happened that CS had a lot of NOS,something about liquidation sale, and put them up for sale at half the asking price of the SRP poster. One of the mods sent me an email stating my post was out of order and had deleted it. The ad is still posted, however all comments have been removed.
P.S. This occurred yesterday I believe.
Pricing comments on ad = not allowed.
Questions concerning ad (everything but price) = allowed.
Links to other razors (as long as pricing is not mentioned) = allowed.
Pricing comments via PM or email = allowed.
Removing and resubmitting of ad because you don't like the comments = PROBLEM.
Removing ad because you've made a mistake (and no resubmission) = ok.
That's about as succinct as I can make it. Just keep it civil and gentlemanly.
If you have a comment which you think might be out of line, please feel free to PM or email any of the moderators - including myself.
Personally, I think this addition to the rules is good, and I thank all the mods for all their efforts here.
My concern remains that newbies are always counseled to check out the BST for vintage razors, shave ready for a fair price. Usually for their first razor(s) at a time that they really are not aware of the nuances of different razors and how much is a fair price (I used to go by Crichton's comments ;)), let alone the different places where they can buy one for a better, or in this case, the true price. So when they see a member, especially one whose join date shows that they have been a member for some time, they assume these.
I guess my question is, is there anything else we can do to keep this from happening again? That is, to prevent someone from using the reputation of SRP's classifieds, and really its members, from being used to fool newcomers into thinking what they are selling is (a)good, and (b)worth the price?
This time we could reference to CS. What if it were a vintage Filly 14 being sold for $660? How can comments be made with no reference to price?
One scenario that comes to my mind is a member seeing what he feels is a razor priced way out of line PMs a mod to that effect. If the mod agrees he notifies the seller and suggests lowering the price or taking it to ebay. Of course it would have to be an egregious discrepancy between a fair price and that listed but that is one way to approach the problem.
Long post here, sorry! I don't think the following suggestion will be adopted; not in any way because I think the mods are not willing to listen but because I don't consider myself to be the greatest problem solver. I'm just throwing out more of a comment wrapped inside a rhetorical question of sorts:
What's really wrong with someone publicly asking a seller why they they ask the price they're asking?:shrug:
I agree, in a hypothetical situation where someone posts something for sale in the classifieds for what many would think would be exorbitant like: "I paid $XX for the same XXX, you're charging too much". Or, "I sold one of those last month and only asked $XX for it. What's up?" I think such comments would be uncalled for and unproductive.
IF............however, a person simply asked an honest question like: "Can you explain why you're charging that price?" What would be wrong with that? Everyone has a reason for setting a price for something. Reasons differ. As a seller of something, I would have no problem whatsoever with explaining why I'd charge a certain price for something.
I saw Glen quite some time ago give a breakdown on a razor and why he was asking what he was (a very fair price IIRC). The original cost of the razor, time spent in restoration, materials etc. I really appreciated that and thought; "Who could argue with that?!?"
I'm finishing up just a few horsehide and cowhide strops I'll put in the classifieds. I'll probably do something similar (give a cost breakdown).
Bottom line, I see nothing wrong with asking a seller to explain why they're asking what they are for anything. Personally I'll go on record saying I would not be offended if I sold something in the Classifieds and someone asked me to explain how I arrived at my asking price.
Chris L
To folow up on Chris's post, on another forum a guy having seen the recent phenomenon of a couple of Fillys bringing $600 on ebay put one up on their BST at that price. In the BST forum the members tore him a new ...... well let's just say they voiced their displeasure. The seller defended his position which left it up to the viewers discrimination to decide whether it was worth it or not. It didn't sell but that is neither here nor there. Seeing that we are all big boys and presumably able to defend ourselves or go to bat for a seller who is being criticized for a price we consder fair why not let it be self governing ? The mods can and do jump in to a thread if it gets out of hand and the newbie would have something to go by if an item is priced out of line.
I also see no problem asking a man why he is wanting so much for his razor. It is not uncouth, it is simply asking someone why he thinks he deserves so much for what he is selling. Everyone should be able to see this.
I think this is a good conversation. A while back in the BST I posted a razor that wasn't cheap. It got a bunch of comments one of which happened to be negative on price. I responded and so did he IIRC. He was just thinking the price was too high and I broke it down for him. Every detail about why it was the price it was. After that it looked like a deal. He didn't respond back but many member's agreed with my reasoning and said it was indeed a good price. Glen included. This might be what Chris L remembered. Anyway, the situation flattened itself out with "self-moderation" so to speak.
I don't think it is "impossible" to keep this going in the current classifieds but obviously we are having these discussions to figure out the best way. It can indeed get offending when prices are the topic. I think we really need to keep in mind that rules on pricing and condition are difficult to put as a blanket over the classifieds. Each situation may call for a different approach. I can think of a ton of razors that should fetch much more than most starter shave-ready-mint razors when they are actually pretty beat up. That is where the line of desirability, rarity, and uniqueness come into pricing and things can get fuzzy for new members. I don't have a silver bullet here, but think that maybe the classifieds could be slightly more "free" with the comments but slightly more moderated. Don't know if that would even work well in the current format, but the more ideas we get going the more the mods have to work with.
I believe this is the one you were talking about Chris, I did it this way for a specific reason, at that time there was a "conversation" going on in BST about pricing... much like this one we are having right now....Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris L
I figured that if I broke it down, that I would not be involved in that "discussion" and that people who were not into restoring razors might have a better idea as to how much work actually goes into doing them...
http://straightrazorpalace.com/buy-s...ak-scales.html
Good memory BTW...
Yep, that's the one, Glen. I love the shape of those scales. When it comes to razor related things, I have a mind like a trap. Now....to figure out how I can transfer that memory ability to other things that I care about less but need to remember!!!:confused:
Chris L