Split from Finishing to Wiki discussion

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11-28-2008, 10:55 PM
Bart

Split from Finishing to Wiki discussion

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeBerlin

Just out of curiosity: What is missing in Beginner's Guide to Honing - Straight Razor Place Wiki to help a beginner decide which way to go?

Glen and Jimmy already answered the question. (You do me too much credit, Jimmy)
Honing a razor to basic shavereadiness is easy. I'm trying NOT to offend anyone, and let me inform you all up front that it took me almost three months before I could manage to make a razor shaveready in a repeatable manner. But I believe most gentlemen ariving here are gamma males. Stray dogs that don't like the middle of the road. Stupborners that like to say "thanks but no thanks" and figure out their own ways. Men that like a personal twist to life. It takes one to know one, I guess.;)
So most guys that take the honing route, read a bit on the basic honing section, digest a bit of Wiki, and catch a few advanced honing threads before they start brewing their own personal honing recipe. It takes much more time before such a recipe is tweaked to something that actually works. If they're like me, they also have problems with swallowing pride, which adds another month to the process.:cry:
Smarter gamma males that take the mentor route, don't have those problems, because they first learn to copy the recipe from a guy that already knows business, and take it form there.

In the end, that all doesn't matter. The razor doesn't know the assh0le using it.

Just my way of saying I like this place, and there's nothing wrong with the Wiki.:)
Bart.
11-28-2008, 11:19 PM
BeBerlin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bart

So most guys that take the honing route, read a bit on the basic honing section, digest a bit of Wiki, and catch a few advanced honing threads before they start brewing their own personal honing recipe. It takes much more time before such a recipe is tweaked to something that actually works. If they're like me, they also have problems with swallowing pride, which adds another month to the process.:cry:

Interesting. I just visited my fantastic shop round the corner and took a five hour honing class.

Needless to say that everything I was taught is the exact opposite of what is in the Wiki, but it works exceptionally well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bart

Smarter gamma males that take the mentor route, don't have those problems, because they first learn to copy the recipe from a guy that already knows business, and take it form there.

Well, I tried. Got Lynn's excellent DVD (got eye cancer from that moustache, but that is a different story entirely), and watched youtube shaving videos for hours on end. In the end, nothing replaces a blond German commandeering you around a shave den, telling you that your honing is a disgrace to your race and pond scum has a higher IQ than yourself. Nothing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bart

In the end, that all doesn't matter. The razor doesn't know the assh0le using it.

Just my way of saying I like this place, and there's nothing wrong with the Wiki.:)
Bart.

I think there is something seriously wrong with the Wiki, or rather, several things. For starters, it is not being embraced by the regulars in here. Which, personally, I find astounding, because writing a tutorial that actually works is a lot easier in the Wiki than in the forum. Compare this Removing Defects From Epoxy Resin Scales - Straight Razor Place Wiki to that http://straightrazorpalace.com/works...cales-how.html. I find the former (courtesy of Jimbo, and his first attempt at creating a Wiki article as far as I remember) much easier to read.

Next problem: Zero feedback. The Wiki now has a good amount of information, but nobody outside Straight Razor Place Forums - The SRP Documentation Team (aka The Wiki Crew) has ever changed anything. But the Wiki is there to be changed. Which, incidentally, is another massive advantage over the forum. I have at least ten forum threads in my the Idea Shower » » Read it Later - Firefox Extension BETA list which I have not converted to Wiki articles because the actual gist of the thread is spread over 40 postings. That is, in my very humble opinion, a complete waste of resources.

Last, there appears to be a tendency among certain members of the forum to disregard the Wiki (and pointers to it instead of another re-iteration of what's been said many times in slightly different words here in the forum) because of the alleged lack of familiarity this process entails. Personally, I could not agree less, but then again my social skills make a fridge feel cozy.

Now, somebody please pull away that soap box from under my feet.
11-29-2008, 12:02 AM
Bart

Kristoffer, I hope you don't mind us :HJ.
BeBerlin,

I see your point. Almost a year ago I introduced the idea for creating a Wiki, but it was dismissed at that time. (http://straightrazorpalace.com/gener...tml#post151576)
Now that it's here, I am guilty of neglecting it a bit.
The first days that it was brought on-line, I have made a few careful and minor alterations, more to practice with the procedures than to really contribute.
I don't see myself as an expert enough to start adding articles and for that same reason I 'm not much inclined to start revising what other people have contributed.
I think that if the Wiki mods (if I may call them that way) would ask direct questions to people they see fit to publish about a particular topic (or revise an already present entry), that would make a big difference.
Either way, I think the Wiki is coming along great. These things need time to grow. But even with the best Wiki in the world, not everybody is equally good at learning by reading comprehensive information. Some people learn by asking questions and receiving ad hoc answers. In fact, I am slowly learning that the shorter the answer I post, often the more effective it seems to be. Because of that, the Wiki will never void the technical forums.

I think you guys are doing a tremendously fine job with that Wiki.
If I can be of any assistance, please let me know.

Bart.
11-29-2008, 12:38 AM
JimmyHAD

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bart

Some people learn by asking questions and receiving ad hoc answers.

I agree. I have directed people to the help files, which were effectively an earlier version of what is now in the Wiki, many times. Sometimes as Bart noted above a concise answer to a specific question is called for. Sort of like pointing out a specific tree in the forest.

Aside from that I personally love hones and honing. That is the main thing I like to read about and to talk about on this forum. If all that there was to do would be to say to every new guy "Hey, go look it up in the Wiki" it wouldn't be as interesting as it has been.

There is a lot to digest when learning a new skill. Sometimes the question may not come until a certain level of experience is reached. I have learned a great deal by reading answers to others questions that are in the forums daily. They may come up just when I need to hear them and not everyone who has a question asks. The guy who is not asking may need to read it too.

The Wiki is a great resource and I go there myself but for whatever reason not everyone is inclined to do forum searches, read help files or now the Wiki. So to those guys I don't think it is inappropriate to give them some special attention.
11-29-2008, 02:22 AM
BeBerlin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bart

I see your point. Almost a year ago I introduced the idea for creating a Wiki, but it was dismissed at that time. (http://straightrazorpalace.com/gener...tml#post151576)

Right. Went through the whole thread. I find this post particularly disturbing. I shall come to the why in a minute: http://straightrazorpalace.com/gener...tml#post153087

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bart

Now that it's here, I am guilty of neglecting it a bit.

Horses for courses, as we say.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bart

[...]I don't see myself as an expert enough to start adding articles and for that same reason I 'm not much inclined to start revising what other people have contributed.

And I think that this is just wrong. If you take a look at this Recent changes - Straight Razor Place Wiki you will find that there were rather few people who actually added anything to the Wiki. One of them knows [insert favourite expletive which would get eaten by the politically correct filter thingy] all about straight shaving.

The Idea is to have anyone add to the Wiki and the experts correct whatever needs correcting.

The beauty part is that any given state of an article can be recovered. If necessary. Which, obviously, has not been the case yet.[/quote]

That is not how a Wiki works. The word Wiki seems to have some bad karma by itself. I have no rational explanation other than that why anyone would use the Forum (and its software, which is geared towards everything but single posts, by definition) to publish tutorial like material.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bart

I think that if the Wiki mods (if I may call them that way) would ask direct questions to people they see fit to publish about a particular topic (or revise an already present entry), that would make a big difference.

If it ever comes to that, I shall stop contributing to the Wiki immediately.

And here is why: http://straightrazorpalace.com/shavi...tml#post287630

There seems to be a technological gap between those who excel at straight shaving in all its shapes and forms, and those who know how to use a computer (forum, wiki, irc, you name it). Transfer of knowledge will only work if a group of those in between will bridge that gap. By ways of giving back to the net what the net gave to me (Unix in 1988, straight razors in 2008), I have tried to add my, admittedly very small, bit. But if, as you suggested above, that gap is un-bridgable, there is no room for me here. I have taken what is there from this forum for my personal use. The rest can be dealt with on #srp.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bart

Either way, I think the Wiki is coming along great. These things need time to grow. But even with the best Wiki in the world, not everybody is equally good at learning by reading comprehensive information. Some people learn by asking questions and receiving ad hoc answers. In fact, I am slowly learning that the shorter the answer I post, often the more effective it seems to be. Because of that, the Wiki will never void the technical forums.

Maybe the problem of the Wiki (coming back to the disturbing post I mentioned in the beginning of my reply) is that it strives at technical elegance. Or feature completeness. When I started contributing to the Wiki, I wanted it to offer information that I, as a beginner, could not find anywhere in an easily digestible form. But people learn in different ways, and there will always be those who learn more easily from watching a video (which, incidentally, is why articles like this one now exist: Razor stropping - Straight Razor Place Wiki). That is fine. But in theory, this is not what a forum is about.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bart

I think you guys are doing a tremendously fine job with that Wiki.
If I can be of any assistance, please let me know.

Jimbo, hoglahoo, and Bjørn have done a tremendous job. But if you can somehow convince the old hands to actively participate, the world wide straight shaving community shall be grateful. And I mean it.

Now then. Who put that 9ft soap box under me?
11-29-2008, 02:45 AM
BeBerlin

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimmyH-AD

I agree. I have directed people to the help files, which were effectively an earlier version of what is now in the Wiki, many times. Sometimes as Bart noted above a concise answer to a specific question is called for. Sort of like pointing out a specific tree in the forest.

I beg to differ. The help files were static. The Wiki is not. If you disagree (or beg to differ), you can easily change it. In theory, the SRP community will either quietly assent, or change your changes.

A concise answer is most often appropriate. Incidentally, this is what I have been getting on #srp. Which is good, because that is what irc (aka Chat) is for. But I digress.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimmyH-AD

Aside from that I personally love hones and honing. That is the main thing I like to read about and to talk about on this forum. If all that there was to do would be to say to every new guy "Hey, go look it up in the Wiki" it wouldn't be as interesting as it has been.

Not quite, I think. I am, quite honestly, too tired to fire up Kivio to lay out the work flow, but information is either new, then it should go to the forum. Or it is tried and trued, then it should go to the Wiki. Anything in betweend had best be discussed on #srp, lest the forum become cluttered with spurious information.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimmyH-AD

There is a lot to digest when learning a new skill. Sometimes the question may not come until a certain level of experience is reached. I have learned a great deal by reading answers to others questions that are in the forums daily. They may come up just when I need to hear them and not everyone who has a question asks. The guy who is not asking may need to read it too.

That is a truism. Let me counter that with How To Ask Questions The Smart Way. Resources on SRP are finite, while the number of Stupid Questions is increasing. Mine included, of course. Coming back to my previously put question of "Whither SRP", the forum has become a rabbit warren. Try for a moment to forget everything you know about straight shaving. Enter the forum. Confusion will ensue.

Wiki to the rescue. Information galore, nicely structured, and easily accessible.

So much for theory.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimmyH-AD

The Wiki is a great resource and I go there myself but for whatever reason not everyone is inclined to do forum searches, read help files or now the Wiki. So to those guys I don't think it is inappropriate to give them some special attention.

Fully agreed. However, you are talking about a yet to be defined fractionn of beginners. The rest will benefit from the Wiki. Or, rather, would, if the bloody thing were where it could be if the regulars of the forum started contributing.

np: The Flying Neutrinos's Hipsters, Zoots & Wingtips: The '90s Swingers: "Mr. Zoot Suit"

Yes, I am in an excellent mood.
11-29-2008, 04:27 AM
FloorPizza

OK, this has been an awesome thread. It's great to hear there's some people here really fired up about the Wiki. Looks like it's time for some other's of us (maybe even us loud mouth newbs : ) ) to get fired up about it and start contributing. Even though I don't know anything, and can prove it (go ahead.. ask me anything... ), I'd love to help however I can.

The internet, and through it's evolution, the wiki, is such a powerful tool for sharing information and educating people on information that was previously difficult or impossible to obtain... the evolution of sharing knowlege via the internet is gonna end up being one of this generation's defining contributions to society, and probably every bit as important as the invention of the electric light bulb. All of man's knowledge needs to be published and available to everyone over the internet. Even stuff like straight shaving.
11-29-2008, 03:10 PM
Bart

I hope the wiki and the forums will never become competitors. Both have their weaknesses and their advantages. So has the chatroom. I don't visit it very often, because English not being my native language, I'm out of my confort zone when I have to engage in instant conversation and make good sense at the same time. That's my problem of course, and I 'm sure many others find the chatroom very valuable. I happen to be good at learning a skill by digesting written information. Most technical things I know, I thought myself by reading. Other people need more interaction in their learning process, so they'll be better off with a forum format, or even with a personal tutor, as already pointed out in a previous post.

The Wiki's new. It is not very initiutive to contribute and edit over there, in comparison with how easy it to post on a thread. Learning the do's and dont's of a wiki is a challenge on it's own.

Maybe we should loose that meaningless (imho) reputation button and replace it with a "I wish to encourage the poster to add this to the wiki" button. Wiki's inherently have an encyclopedic kind of credibility. I think that asks for at least some responability to keep "barberstore" talk at a distance. Y'all know that I like to formulate hyphotesis and come up with experiments to check my theories. I would never add conclusions build on such a small empirical base to the wiki. In fact, one of my controversial ideas was included, and I'm not sure I'm happy about that. (although I felt honored, of course).

PS. If a forum moderator is reading along, could this thread be split into separate threads?

Bart.
11-29-2008, 05:35 PM
gssixgun

Split from Finishing to Wiki discussion

Split from a Finishing Hone thread into a Wiki Discussion Thread as requested by Those posting
11-29-2008, 10:27 PM
Jimbo

First let me say Robin is far too kind with regards myself - I have only put one thing up on the Wiki so far.

Second, I have never liked Wikis. I freely admit it. It is a philosophical and (I now realise) elitist objection on my part, mainly due to my chosen career and a rather self-satisfied view that the "great unwashed" have no business publishing information to the public. Yes, I am a wanker as well as a gormless twit.

However, watching Robin and others (but particularly Robin) struggle to get the Wiki up and become useful has given me a greater appreciation of the process and it's underlying objective.

The Wiki is not in competition with the forum. It complements the forum. Having spent the greater part of 2.5 years here, I can tell you that unless you possess the searching skills of Indiana Jones, useful old threads dribble out of your head after a while. I can also tell you that after several years on the forum the same questions and ideas repeatedly pop up again and again.

This is where I see the Wiki playing a role. Put those useful posts in the Wiki. Create Wiki pages that cover the introductory concepts. Add information on commonly occurring themes. Refer people to these pages, and if they are still confused about certain things, encourage them to post their questions in the forum. If a major flaw is found in the Wiki as a result of this, go edit the Wiki to reflect the changes.

Anyone can edit the Wiki. There are no "Wiki Mods" or whatever. I am a mere member, and I can change pretty much anything I like on there as easily as I can post in here. The Wiki is like the ultimate in peer review - but that only works if the peers review it and get involved in the process.

The Wiki is only as good as the information in it. Get involved and contribute to the project, add to and edit the pool of knowledge, and help create a useful and respected resource. A dynamic, centralised store of information, constantly being refreshed and monitored, which is easily accessed.

That's got to be a good thing, right?

James.
11-30-2008, 12:58 AM
Wildtim

Sorry but I really don't like the a couple of things about thw wiki.

One: When I put the thought in to write a helpful a post or more importantly an entire article on a subject I get seriously p'oed when some dumb a$$ comes along and interjects his opinion into my carefully crafted thoughts.

In other words if I place an article up and it is edited I will be PI$$ED and probably retaliate by deleting the whole thing.

Two: in light of the "WIKI Contest" I just tried to learn how to put an article in the WIKI and well.... I just can't figure it out. Apparently its a tad over my head. In fact I look at what I would have to do to put an article in there ( which would probably be edited anyway) and just say "skip it".

Sorry guys, perhaps you can enlighten me but......so far thats what I see. With the above objections you can see why I haven't "embraced" the Wiki.
11-30-2008, 01:20 AM
BeBerlin
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wildtim

Sorry but I really don't like the a couple of things about thw wiki.

One: When I put the thought in to write a helpful a post or more importantly an entire article on a subject I get seriously p'oed when some dumb a$$ comes along and interjects his opinion into my carefully crafted thoughts.

In other words if I place an article up and it is edited I will be PI$$ED and probably retaliate by deleting the whole thing.

Then the Wiki simply is not for you. Which, of course, is perfectly fine.

What differentiates our Wiki from, say, wikipedia.org is the fact that straight razor shaving is not exactly an exact science. Therefore, opinions will play a role in our Wiki articles, and if your disagreement with that opinion is too strong for your liking, you should obviously not contribute.

However, while the forum will protect your carefully crafted article from editing, it will not protect it from comments. Obviously, this is the core feature of a forum. But what does that mean for your article? In essence, it means that your opinion (to stick with your example) will be presented, commented on, maybe refuted - and in the end, there is no resolution other than the thread slowly fading into oblivion.

If you put your article on the Wiki, and linked it to the forum, you could gather relevant articles, incorporate them into your Wiki article, thus enhancing your article. Should anyone make changes you disagree with, you could always revert those changes, and present them for discussion, either on the article's discussion page, or in the forum thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wildtim

Two: in light of the "WIKI Contest" I just tried to learn how to put an article in the WIKI and well.... I just can't figure it out. Apparently its a tad over my head. In fact I look at what I would have to do to put an article in there ( which would probably be edited anyway) and just say "skip it".

There is only one relevant difference between the forum and the Wiki (which I think we should remedy quickly to lower the entry barrier): There is no "New Article" button. The easiest way to create a new article is to do this:

Code:

Go to the Wiki main page: http://straightrazorpalace.com/srpwiki/index.php/Main_Page Then replace "Main_Page" with the title of your article, e.g. "Test": http://straightrazorpalace.com/srpwiki/index.php/Test The resulting page will have a link to create that article: http://straightrazorpalace.com/srpwiki/index.php?title=Test&action=edit

Admittedly, this is counter intuitive. The text editor itself, however, is easier to use than that of the forum. If you want a fancier editing environment, you can find the relevant information on my user page: User:BeBerlin - Straight Razor Place Wiki

You can play with the Wiki syntax on this page: Sandbox - Straight Razor Place Wiki. It was specifically put in place to allow users to test their editing skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wildtim

Sorry guys, perhaps you can enlighten me but......so far thats what I see. With the above objections you can see why I haven't "embraced" the Wiki.

To sum this up:
1. If you do not want to give others the ability to enhance your contributions, while publishing in a medium that is ill equipped for creating information that is easily accessible, you should not use the Wiki.
2. The Wiki needs to become more easily accessible, and more help for beginners should be provided.
11-30-2008, 07:30 PM
Jimbo

If this is going to be an issue (no button to create a new page), surely we can do that easily enough. Create a page with a text entry box for users to type the name of their page, and add a little bit of Java code that pastes that name to the end of

Code:

http://straightrazorpalace.com/srpwiki/index.php?action=edit

??

Or is that not advisable?

James.
11-30-2008, 10:19 PM
Bart

There,

I submitted something, and now I can't get it to appear at the right place. :thinking:

A simple honing method with DMT-E , Belgian Blue Whetstone and Coticule - Straight Razor Place Wiki
11-30-2008, 10:28 PM
Jimbo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bart

There,

I submitted something, and now I can't get it to appear at the right place. :thinking:

A simple honing method with DMT-E , Belgian Blue Whetstone and Coticule - Straight Razor Place Wiki

Bart,

Add some category statements to the end of the code. The Wiki will put it in the right place depending on what you say. For example, in the one I did I placed this code at the end:

Code:

[[Category:Tutorials]] [[Category:Restoration]] [[Category:Scales]]

For yours, you might just want to use:

Code:

[[Category:Tutorials]] [[Category:Honing]] [[Category:Maintenance_and_honing]]

Finding a page in the same area as where you want yours to go, and then clicking on the "View Source" tab for that page can show you some useful coding tid-bits.

James.
12-01-2008, 02:10 AM
FloorPizza

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bart

I hope the wiki and the forums will never become competitors. Both have their weaknesses and their advantages. So has the chatroom. I don't visit it very often, because English not being my native language, I'm out of my confort zone when I have to engage in instant conversation and make good sense at the same time. That's my problem of course, and I 'm sure many others find the chatroom very valuable. I happen to be good at learning a skill by digesting written information. Most technical things I know, I thought myself by reading. Other people need more interaction in their learning process, so they'll be better off with a forum format, or even with a personal tutor, as already pointed out in a previous post.

The Wiki's new. It is not very initiutive to contribute and edit over there, in comparison with how easy it to post on a thread. Learning the do's and dont's of a wiki is a challenge on it's own.

Maybe we should loose that meaningless (imho) reputation button and replace it with a "I wish to encourage the poster to add this to the wiki" button. Wiki's inherently have an encyclopedic kind of credibility. I think that asks for at least some responability to keep "barberstore" talk at a distance. Y'all know that I like to formulate hyphotesis and come up with experiments to check my theories. I would never add conclusions build on such a small empirical base to the wiki. In fact, one of my controversial ideas was included, and I'm not sure I'm happy about that. (although I felt honored, of course).

PS. If a forum moderator is reading along, could this thread be split into separate threads?

Bart.

Exactly. I'm so concerned that I'll screw it up if I try to add or change anything.

But I certainly can understand BeBerlin's frustration; he's been doing the lion's share of work on the wiki, without alot of support of us regular (can I consider myself a "regular" now? :) ) SRP'ers. Time to change that. :)
12-01-2008, 02:13 AM
FloorPizza

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jimbo

Bart,

Add some category statements to the end of the code. The Wiki will put it in the right place depending on what you say. For example, in the one I did I placed this code at the end:

Code:

[[Category:Tutorials]] [[Category:Restoration]] [[Category:Scales]]

For yours, you might just want to use:

Code:

[[Category:Tutorials]] [[Category:Honing]] [[Category:Maintenance_and_honing]]

Finding a page in the same area as where you want yours to go, and then clicking on the "View Source" tab for that page can show you some useful coding tid-bits.

James.

James, that's just the kinda info we need. Thanks!
12-01-2008, 02:17 AM
FloorPizza

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bart

There,

I submitted something, and now I can't get it to appear at the right place. :thinking:

A simple honing method with DMT-E , Belgian Blue Whetstone and Coticule - Straight Razor Place Wiki

Bart, that was a fantastic contribution! I just read through it.. twice. Well written, easily understood.. just good stuff.

Now I'm thinking about getting a BBW and a Coticule instead of a shapton 16k on glass.
12-03-2008, 12:29 AM
Bart

I made another contribution.
Advanced shaving techniques for the straight razor - Straight Razor Place Wiki

I tried putting it into the "Shaving techniques" category, but the only thing showing up there is the knifecenters' Dovo article. I think something might be wrong with the "Shaving techniques" category.
I also added my article to the "tutorials" category, although I don't think it is the best place.

Can someone of the Wiki crew look into this?
Thanks.

Floorpizza, thanks for the positive feedback, my friend. Glad you liked the article.

Best regards,
Bart.
12-03-2008, 12:39 AM
hoglahoo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bart

Almost a year ago I introduced the idea for creating a Wiki, but it was dismissed at that time.

It has been dismissed by others long before that as well. But we have it now :) Thanks to DA BOMB! Now, let's keep adding to it in a clear, concise, organized way and we will have something we can confidently point a beginner to instead of a smattering of forum posts in various threads and stickies scattered about

Thanks for this discussion too, and Bart, nice additions to the wiki. I can't wait to plow through those articles as I am still trying to get my coticule to sharpen anything
12-03-2008, 06:31 AM
BeBerlin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bart

I made another contribution.
Advanced shaving techniques for the straight razor - Straight Razor Place Wiki

Sterling stuff, Bart. Very nice!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bart

I tried putting it into the "Shaving techniques" category, but the only thing showing up there is the knifecenters' Dovo article. I think something might be wrong with the "Shaving techniques" category.

Fixed, and I have also changed the front page accordingly.