Greener Soaps?

Hey there guys, I'm still fairly new around here and the hobby of straight razor shaving. One of the bigger reasons why I am attracted to the old school art of straight razor shaving is because it is so green. No blades or cartridges to have to buy and then later throw away, so it saves money and also time and effort.

Now I am still exploring the world of straight razors but I was curious if there were any greener soaps for lathering up available? I say greener because I don't think anything can be truly green by being 100% organic and natural and made from sustainable sources and performs well. Its like asking for your cake and eating it too, just looking for something a little bit more natural than whats already offered unless the stuff I already use is already fairly green considering it seems like many of these soaps are no-nonesense in their manufacturing processes.

Any suggestions?

What are you using now?
I would recommend non-palm oil (palm oil bad!) based soaps, and maybe try to get some of the Fitjar soaps from Norway--they seem to be very environmentally conscious.

Currently I use Williams. I am just starting out so I think that Williams and the boar bristle brush are excusable while I familiarize myself and practice on working on necessary skills.

Also I know that palm oil is not good stuff at all. IIRC, Palm Oil is also known as Sodium Lauryl Sulfate.

There are of course two schools of thought on this

1) manufacture the soaps on industrial scale - that brings the cost down which is also lesser enviromental impact (the cost of doing nothing is zero and that nothing has of course no impact whatsoever on the environment by definition)

2) get it from a small manufacturer - usually they are more conscious about the quality of the soap, the ingredients and the process. being made on a much smaller scale and without the necessity for lowest cost and highest profits allows use of more natural ingredients.

of course it's almost impossible to rank various soaps by that quality, since there is so much going into it and things can vary. going to a manufacturer who advertises 'green' is one option, as long as you actually believe they know what they're doing and there's some substance behind the marketing. of course if those soaps have to be shipped to you from the other side of the world even if they're really green over there, they'll probably be considered pretty gray by the time they land in your bathroom.

colleen @ thegentlemensquarter.com makes really nice soaps and i believe she grows some of the stuff herself. not the main ingredients though - the fat and the lye. i think last year she was considering getting some certificate for 'all natural' or something of that sort. if you have time check her thread in the vendors corner - it's easy to spot it's the longest running thread on srp :)

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Originally Posted by LuckyCynic

Currently I use Williams. I am just starting out so I think that Williams and the boar bristle brush are excusable while I familiarize myself and practice on working on necessary skills.

Also I know that palm oil is not good stuff at all. IIRC, Palm Oil is also known as Sodium Lauryl Sulfate.

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I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "excusable". Boars are certainly a renewable resource; and Williams, being tallow based, is probably mostly fairly low impact. Unless, of course, you're a vegan, in which case you have some soul searching to do. :D

I'm just not too into animal products. For some necessary things like a leather strop where a synthetic would be difficult, I won't complain too much but having beef fat (tallow) in my soap is kinda "ew" in my opinion and as far as I have gathered, synthetic brushes work somewhat in between the stiff boar hair and the soft badger hair, but retain the water well as if badger hair.

*shrugs* I'm just looking to make the best choice knowing that someone somewhere has to lose. Either a badger goes bye bye, or some nylon from the brush lasts for a thousand years, refusing to decompose. :P

But the point of this thread was just finding greener and hopefully cleaner products. Right now I am checking into "method shaving" and it seems to appeal to my intentions. :D

Okay! A bit of an update. It seems Method shaving is probably not right for me. While it does put an emphasis on more organic and less artificial products, it requires even more products than not going with this particular method and besides, many of these products have palm oil and require one another... a shame, it looked promising. -_-;

I suppose I will just now pretend that I did not even consider Method shaving and continue learning stuff as you guys preach it. I guess now my goal in a soap is to A: Go sans Tallow, B: The closer/more convenient the better, C: More natural goodies, less artificial crap, and D: preferably decent packaging, no super thick plastic shrink wrap around a thick plastic bottle. I know I must sound kinda whiny about this but I'm just trying to make a good choice out of what seems to be an ocean of products.

You aren't being whiny, just particular about what you want. I actually started shaving with a straight for the same "green" reasons you posted.

I just got a little carried away with natural hones, razors etc. somehow or another.:shrug:


Anyhow, I think there are some sellers in the Vendor's corner who make their own soap, and that's an idea.

My wife makes our soap for home use, no animal fats or anything. I can tell you this, it ain't a "green" process.

It is fun, but you have a LOT of plastic bottles full of oil, lye, etc sitting around and all those products need to be shipped... sigh

We live in a disposable society and it's a very difficult thing to work around if you want to minimize your impact on landfills or the environment in general.

Have you thought about using the Body Shop's Cream? It's very good stuff, and they are quite a green company. They also have a synthetic brush, but I don't know if it's any good. I hear the Omega Syntex is pretty good, though.

Apparently they say that this is a good synthetic. It seems to cost a decent amount so at least I know it probably isn't one of incredibly poor quality.

men-u Premier Shaving Brush and Stand, with FREE Shaving/Skin Travel Set.

Also I know that some stuff like hones cannot get very green so those in my opinion are not worth stressing over however some stuff that I will be repurchasing time and time again, it may be worth finding a slightly greener alternative.


Also about the Body Shop's cream... can that be applied with a brush? I tried another shaving 'cream' and it just would not lather up so I thought that it wasn't made with that in mind... don't want to have to buy a whole can of the stuff and find out that it renders my brush useless...

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Originally Posted by LuckyCynic

Currently I use Williams. I am just starting out so I think that Williams and the boar bristle brush are excusable while I familiarize myself and practice on working on necessary skills.

Also I know that palm oil is not good stuff at all. IIRC, Palm Oil is also known as Sodium Lauryl Sulfate.

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Why is palm oil bad? Palm oil is natural and comes from sustainable farming operations. Sodium Lauryl Sulfate is NOT palm oil, it is not even related to palm oil, it is produced by reacting lauryl alcohol with sulfuric acid. It is a surfactant, and may be used in place of or in addtion to soap in some products, but it is not soap, and not palm oil. Palm oil is often used to make soaps because it produces a hard cake. Once the oil has been saponified, it is usually referred to as sodium palmate.

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Originally Posted by fccexpert

Why is palm oil bad? Palm oil is natural and comes from sustainable farming operations. Sodium Lauryl Sulfate is NOT palm oil, it is not even related to palm oil, it is produced by reacting lauryl alcohol with sulfuric acid. It is a surfactant, and may be used in place of or in addtion to soap in some products, but it is not soap, and not palm oil. Palm oil is often used to make soaps because it produces a hard cake. Once the oil has been saponified, it is usually referred to as sodium palmate.

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No it does not. I know that Sodium Lauryl Sulfate is used a lot in tooth pastes and somehow there is a connection or that it is derived from palm oil. Palm oil is not always sustainable and as people consume more and more of it, more and more forests are cut down to grow the palm needed and thus aminal habitats are thrown right out the window.

Ah here we are!

Sodium Lauryl Sulfate | Seventh Generation

Palm oil bad, as is most SLS. :)

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Originally Posted by LuckyCynic

No it does not. I know that Sodium Lauryl Sulfate is used a lot in tooth pastes and somehow there is a connection or that it is derived from palm oil. Palm oil is not always sustainable and as people consume more and more of it, more and more forests are cut down to grow the palm needed and thus aminal habitats are thrown right out the window.

Ah here we are!

Sodium Lauryl Sulfate | Seventh Generation

Palm oil bad, as is most SLS. :)

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I suppose you could buy free trade, forest safe Palm oil... but any oils salable for mass market requires quantities that necessitate farming.

That means deforestation of native plants in favor of your crop plant. Kind of a losing proposition really.

As far as "green hones" goes...get a vintage from ebay or someone on the forums. It's the ultimate in recycling!:y

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Originally Posted by LuckyCynic

No it does not. I know that Sodium Lauryl Sulfate is used a lot in tooth pastes and somehow there is a connection or that it is derived from palm oil. Palm oil is not always sustainable and as people consume more and more of it, more and more forests are cut down to grow the palm needed and thus aminal habitats are thrown right out the window.

Ah here we are!

Sodium Lauryl Sulfate | Seventh Generation

Palm oil bad, as is most SLS. :)

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Any fat (vegetable oil) that is produced in commercial quantities is going to be produced in farms, and to get these farms, land must be cleared of its natural vegitation and planted with the economic crop. It does not matter if it is palm oil, olive oil, sunflower oil, or rapeseed oil, it all comes from a farm and farms are pretty much the same the world over. I don't see how palm farms are any different.

All I said was that sodium lauryl sulfate is not palm oil (you said it was). Lauryl alcohol, one of the chemicals used to make sodium lauryl sulfate can be produced from palm oil, or coconut oil, but then so can soap. The soap is not palm oil, and neither is sodium lauryl sulfate.

If you don't want to use products that contain palm oil, that is your right. I just don't think it makes much sense to single out palm oil since it is no more or less "green" than any other commercially produced vegetable oil. Hence, the designation of palm oil = bad is silly at best.

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Originally Posted by LuckyCynic

{snip}

Also about the Body Shop's cream... can that be applied with a brush? I tried another shaving 'cream' and it just would not lather up so I thought that it wasn't made with that in mind... don't want to have to buy a whole can of the stuff and find out that it renders my brush useless...

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The Body Shop Maca Root cream is an EXCELLENT brush cream. I would put it up with the top English creams in terms of quality.

Wood ash plus water = base
Rendered animal fat = oil

Mix together in the right proportions with heat till the fat sopinifies.

You could use the ashes from your wood fire for rendering the fat.

It does not get greener than that.

Charlie

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Originally Posted by JimR

The Body Shop Maca Root cream is an EXCELLENT brush cream. I would put it up with the top English creams in terms of quality.

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Okay guys I just came back from the mall. Thankfully I live like 9 miles away from a huge major mall and it has all sorts of really high end and nice stores. There's a Lush which carries a lot of green products but not much for shaving. There is also The Body Shop which I got to feel their nice synthetic brush which was good, especially for $11 and their cream looks good too. I also went to a crabtree and evalyn which frankly was nothing I was looking for. Hardly anything was natural or organic and everything was still pricey... still, I got to check out their brushes and I saw the "best" badger hair brush for $35 which seems quite popular but the synthetic from Body Shop seemed softer... more springy, but definitely comparable.


Now what sucks is that I am stuck with my $7 boar hair brush that I JUST bought. :P

Oh well, maybe I can move it or hand it off to someone here. But yeah, I think I would definitely like to work with a Body Shop line of soaps and products. They aren't 100% organic or natural, but they sure are better than other companies out there and they aren't "Bleeding from the eyes" expensive either!

So okay guys, a bit of an update. I managed to go to the mall which I am thankful that I have a huge one near by that has all kinds of exotic and nice stores.

I checked out Lush for soapy goodness and they hardly have anything appropriate for this type of shaving. However, the Body shop had what felt like a really good synthetic for $11 and it was really nice and soft and worth it I felt. Also it seems that their shaving cream would be a best bet because they do have one that actually lathers up. Then I checked out a Crabtree and evelyn store which hardly had stuff that appealed to me. Hardly anything in that store was green or all natural or organic or anything, though they did have their $35 "Best" badger hair brush but it wasn't particularly softer then the Body Shop's.

Trouble is, I have a whole bar of Williams to work through and also this new boar hair brush... $8 from a drug store but I fear that if I get my synthetic, then I doubt it would get much use... oh well. Maybe I can offer it to someone here if they want it.

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Originally Posted by LuckyCynic

So okay guys, a bit of an update. I managed to go to the mall which I am thankful that I have a huge one near by that has all kinds of exotic and nice stores.

I checked out Lush for soapy goodness and they hardly have anything appropriate for this type of shaving. However, the Body shop had what felt like a really good synthetic for $11 and it was really nice and soft and worth it I felt. Also it seems that their shaving cream would be a best bet because they do have one that actually lathers up. Then I checked out a Crabtree and evelyn store which hardly had stuff that appealed to me. Hardly anything in that store was green or all natural or organic or anything, though they did have their $35 "Best" badger hair brush but it wasn't particularly softer then the Body Shop's.

Trouble is, I have a whole bar of Williams to work through and also this new boar hair brush... $8 from a drug store but I fear that if I get my synthetic, then I doubt it would get much use... oh well. Maybe I can offer it to someone here if they want it.

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LuckyCynic, get the Body Shop cream (I put a link to my review in my previous post, but didn't make it obvious--looking back, that was a bad move, sorry. try clicking the word "cream"--I love that stuff, more than most people probably), and use the Williams in the shower or as a face wash or something (there's also no law against trading off between cream one day, and soap the next). Your face will thank you for it, and you won't be wasting anything. As for the boar brush--keep it for travel or give it to a newb in need if you'd rather use the synthetic. There are plenty of people who need a starter brush!

The C&E BBB is actually a very popular, and fairly high quality, brush. It's made by Edwin Jagger, a good old English Brand. It was too soft for me (I much prefer Boar to badger...but don't tell on me! ;) ) but many people love it. If you catch one of C&E's frequent sales, you can often get it for less than $30, though if yoU7re worried about animal issues then I would certainy not recommend using badger--they are harvested in China, and no matter what anyone tells me about "humane harvesting" and "people eat them", I have no faith in Chinese animal husbandry and humane treatment.

Thanks Jim. I did see your review and thought it was pretty extensive. I think I am pretty much decided that I will go ahead and just grab everything from the Body Shop. It is like $40 for the brush, a huge tub of cream and also a tube of balm... Not bad at all. :D

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Originally Posted by joke1176

As far as "green hones" goes...get a vintage from ebay or someone on the forums. It's the ultimate in recycling!:y

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Oh, I'm so gonna use this on the next hone I sell :)

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Originally Posted by JimR

though if yoU7re worried about animal issues then I would certainy not recommend using badger--they are harvested in China, and no matter what anyone tells me about "humane harvesting" and "people eat them", I have no faith in Chinese animal husbandry and humane treatment.

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Well, in their defense I believe they do eat the meat, and if they have use for the bones, I'd consider it a fairly green process :)


Anyways, looks like you're pretty much set for now. It's hard seeing you torture yourself with the boar brush conundrum, but I'm sure you'll come up with a satisfactory solution.
And some people like to mix cream with soap, so don't worry about the Williams too much. But I suspect it's more the lard in it that's troubling you than the idea of wasting it, although I may be wrong.

Do you think you could advertize as green if you had a brush company where you just went into the countryside, pulled a tuft of hair from a badgers ar*e and then just ran off?! It may be a little angry but it would live to tell the tail:D

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Originally Posted by gugi

{snip}

Well, in their defense I believe they do eat the meat, and if they have use for the bones, I'd consider it a fairly green process :)
{snip}

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I have no doubts that they eat the meat. It's not the "green" thing that I care about as much as the fact that China has a crap record when it comes to careful treatment of animal species; I mean, the Giant Panda is still sometimes sold as food in Shanghai street markets, despite it being 1) incredibly endangered and 2) the national symbol to the world. Am I supposed to believe that badgers will be protected better? The reason that we have to get badger hair from China is that badger hunting in Europe is heavily controlled due to overhunting--they're almost extinct there. If they go extinct in China, then they're gone.

Now, some people don't think it's a big deal, and that's no problem for me. I'm not even that politically interested in it myself, but the fact remains that when people saay "The badgers are killed in a humane way, and the Chinese officials make sure there is no overhunting", my BS meter almost explodes. Don't even get me started on the whole "badgers are farmed and gently shaved so there is no harm to them at all" stuff...

I am unsure how many people in this forum will actually see this new posting buried on the second page of an old post but here goes. China and eating badger/boar meat aside.....:OT.....I came across a web site greenyour.com which actually turned me on to straight razor shaving. This site has a section about "Green" Shaving Products for both men and women :rock: I am unsure whether these products are sold in local stores but it is worth a shot.
Here are some other green soaps Aloe Vera Soap, Sassafras Soap, and Basil and Mint.

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Originally Posted by nobby

Do you think you could advertize as green if you had a brush company where you just went into the countryside, pulled a tuft of hair from a badgers ar*e and then just ran off?! It may be a little angry but it would live to tell the tail:D

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You sir, have CLEARLY never encountered a badger up close!

I can just picture the news report now....

Well meaning environmentalist attempts to collect badger hair from wild badgers to make animal friendly shave brushes, and is savagely mauled to death by the worlds most vicious animal under 25 lbs.

lol

Let me start by asking you what do you consider green? There are a few aspects and they might be conflicting when looking for shaving gear. The most "green" would be to not shave, but the resulting green-ness might be predominantly found in the color of your wife's face and the color of the paper departing your possession after the divorce attorney paid a visit. :D

If you opt for "not hurt animals", you'd best go with anything synthetic or plant based. But how many animals died or suffered for the farms for your plant-based kit, or in the oilrefining processes? If you opt for "lowest pollution" you'll need to factor in transportation. Buying a locally-made animal product in general has less impact than flying in a plant-based product from the other side of the world (and then we haven't even looked at the gathering of all ingredients and the chain goes on and on and on ;)). Picking "least impact on nature" is also difficult. Both plants and animals are farmed, which requires land. Animals require, farmed usually, foods. Synthetic stuff requires a chemical plant of some sorts for the base product. All products need to be manufactured, which means a production plant. And yes, those big factories are ugly (and of course polluting), but they have the advantage of working big-scale. The small neighbourhood workplace with handmade products looks nice and traditional, and it is, but keep in mind that to be able to serve the same market, you'll need a lot of them and I doubt whether that'll be less impacting than one big factory. Of course you then have the added transportation from the big factory, etcetera, but you get the picture.....

.....choosing "green" isn't as easy as one might think. :)


I find it very unfortunate that the so-called (yes, I am very cynical about them and one could consider this a rant) environmental movements/groups usually focus on a single point of attention (i.e. palm-oil farms are hot these days), instead of looking at the bigger picture. The bigger picture is sensationally complex and many factors impact each other and ripple through to others. Which makes the bigger picture difficult to grasp and of course less sexy for the marketing. And yes, the greenies market too, in general the aim is the feeling of guilt of the public. [/rant]


Don't get me wrong, I prefer to have a "low environmental impact" as well, to some degree, and I wish you luck in finding a solution that works well for you.

If you want to take it to an extreme, just use water and some oil of choice to shave with. Any oil you are happy to cook with / add to food will act as shaving oil - and work better than canned foam. And no need for a brush. Not everyone's cup of tea, but it would work just fine.

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Originally Posted by LuckyCynic

Apparently they say that this is a good synthetic. It seems to cost a decent amount so at least I know it probably isn't one of incredibly poor quality.

men-u Premier Shaving Brush and Stand, with FREE Shaving/Skin Travel Set.

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I have a Men-U premier brush and do not like it much. It is very floppy. Plus, it is very crappily built. The handle it comes with is really cheap plastic. I just got a Jack Black brush and it is built like a tank. Very good quality. Plus it is a much denser brush and seems better with the triple-milled, non-tallow soaps I use. The brush is the biggest challenge I have found in wetshving without using animal products. For every other aspect there are great alternatives, but mimicking the performance and quality of a badger hair brush has left a lot to be desired. I have tried the Body Shop brush, too. But have not tried the Omegas. I have heard they are also pretty floppy.

Tony Miller -- wellshavedgentleman.com -- makes very high quality vegan strops. I have been using one for almost a year and it works very well. He takes making vegan alternatives very seriously, and will work with you to make whatever you want. He made a very nice cotton strop for me that I use for sharpening pastes, and it uses the same synthetic components where normally he would use leather. The two strops match perfectly and are high quality.

For vegan shaving soaps look here: No animal products shaving soap list - Badger & Blade

Shave dry, Use water, Go roman with olive oil, step up to saponification of that olive oil to castile soap, save your excess animal/vegetable fats from cooking and process with your own hard wood ashes... how far do you want to go? That being said it looks like you have your problem solved.

Also my understanding is palm oil comes from the fruits where palm kernel oil comes from the kernels while both from Arecaceae Elaeis. It's the kernel oil that actualy contains the 12 carbon saturated lauric chains in it's tryglycerides in any appreciable amount.... you know just incase you have to make sodium lauryl sulfate some time soon don't want to get fired over ordering palm oil instead of the kernel oil....

This is a pretty cool thread, I haven't thought of "green" shaving products before. I'm not really planning to switch to any green products as far as shaving, but I'll have to give it a look once I run out the soaps/cream I currently have. Good idea OP.

Pre De Provence
Ingredients: potassium palmate, sodium palmate, potassium palm kernelate, sodium palm kernelate, glycerin, water (aqua), fragrance (parfum), palm kernel acid, sodium chloride, pentasodium pentetate, tetrasodium etidronate, rosemary extract - soybean oil (rosmariunus officinalis - glycine soja)

While I hate to resurrect the brawl between fccexpert and LuckyClinc, (OK, so I don't mind that much,) is there a difference between sodium lauryl sulfate and sodium laureth sulfate? The latter is a known cancer causing agent and is used in virtually every product that makes suds. On of the things that attracted me to using shaving soap instead of that stuff in the cans was the fact that I've never seen it listed on the ingredients of any shaving soap.

Yes

Sodium Lauryl Sulfate
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...D-skeletal.png

Sodium Laureth Sulfate
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...th_sulfate.png

Sodium Laureth Sulfate is an ether of varied lengths though n=3 is the most common in commercial products. Similar but a tweak of chemistry none the less...

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Originally Posted by FreyGrimrod

Yes

Sodium Lauryl Sulfate
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...D-skeletal.png

Sodium Laureth Sulfate
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...th_sulfate.png

Sodium Laureth Sulfate is an ether of varied lengths though n=3 is the most common in commercial products. Similar but a tweak of chemistry none the less...

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But it is still not palm oil, nor is it present in palm oil, or in soaps made from palm oil.