Different Martial Arts

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Originally Posted by LiamPBoyle

10-12th grade Chang Hon (military) Tae Kwon Do - I left having only attained the rank of brown belt w/ black stripe. I had a bit of a falling out with the instructor before I could get my black belt. (Something about his no dating other students rule, what can I say? I was a teenager.)

There is a reason for that & I can remember seeing the dynamics between couples that trained together could tricky to put it mildly . :)

2009 - current, starting shortly before and then following a rather nasty car/bicycle accident Cheng Man Ching / Zheng Manquing style Tai Chi Chuan / Taijiquan. Yes, taiji has martial application. No, it does not look like it has martial application watching the form.
Do you train in the other internal styles as well ? Hsing-i & Paqua ?

A couple of months back a friend of mine and I started a HEMA (Historical European Martial Arts) club. We are covering German Long Sword, Military Saber, Rapier/Small Sword, and Sword & Buckler.

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Originally Posted by LiamPBoyle

Now as for oddities even the Tai Chi and HEMA styles I study are military in nature except for the Sw&B and Kung Fu early on. I would have thought the German sword styles would be military in nature also, albeit of a bygone era.

What interets me is these distilled, condensed, systems that were designed to take an untrained person to a reasonable level of competence quickly even if the quest for mastery can take the rest of my life.
I figure that involves training an attitude towards survival & efficiency as well as martial skills.

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Thanx for your posts.

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Originally Posted by DoughBoy68

I spent about 2 1/2 years studying Tae Kwon Do with the Oriental Martial Arts College (Oriental Martial Arts College Columbus Ohio Headquarters | www.omacworld.com) under Master Joon Pyo Choi back in the middle 1970's. I was about 1-2 weeks from going for my brown belt when I fell at work and destroyed my back. Beside teaching how to defend yourself, meditation was strongly emphasized in the interest of making you a better person instead of a making you a bad ass like some of the schools in the area. A VIP aspect I think. Meditation also helps with preparing the mind for battle so you can be bada$$ without the enemy knowing . ;)

What was unique about this system was you studied under one of Master Choi's instructors but when it came time for promotion you went before Master Choi himself for testing to see if you got your next belt, which was a bit intimidating. My instructor took me to one of Master Choi's classes and while doing a series of kicks and punches (form) my belt came untied. That had never happened before or after, my belt never came untied during class except then. Now, don't you know he saw it, was looking right at me to see what I would do, that was very strange.
This is a good way fro the master to test his teachers as well as their students.
Maybe you were due for your next belt. :)

The black belt test was very extreme from what my instructor told me because he had to go through it himself. Besides showing your forms, techniques, etc. you had to fast for 3 days, meditate for 12 hours and fight the master. The first master/instructor rank is a big one. For me my 3rd Dan was the next big challenge
I asked my instructor "What's it like fighting Master Choi"? He said "You can't touch him. He knows what you are going to do before you do. He'll let you make your move, he counters and nails you, it's really frustrating". Gotta love it ! Battle is all about information. You having it all & the enemy having none. :)

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Thank you.

onimaru55, with the German styles the difference in civ vs military styles is largely dependent on which of the surviving manuscripts you are drawing your source material from. There are not many documents regarding the training of common soldiers so much has to be interpreted from documents recorded by the nobility and the church. That's what makes HEMA so fun to me, it's half martial art and half research project.

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Originally Posted by LiamPBoyle

onimaru55, with the German styles the difference in civ vs military styles is largely dependent on which of the surviving manuscripts you are drawing your source material from. There are not many documents regarding the training of common soldiers so much has to be interpreted from documents recorded by the nobility and the church. That's what makes HEMA so fun to me, it's half martial art and half research project.

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I watched a show recently on the troubles that Richard III had with Osteo, they had a bloke his size with roughly the same bend in his spine double to show how Richard could charge the French. Awesome show about blacksmithing the armour and quick training with the various weapons to see how his body would react.

I was watching a show on the similarities of most martial arts, it was centric around the use of bladed weapons and how most of our take downs etc are based on an opponent with a blade. The disarming and locking up of limbs in principle is exactly the same with or without a weapon (there is just less change of getting sliced if they do not have one handy). The show was mostly about Jujitsu, what was impressive was the fluidity of movement. It bought a whole new level to my training because I have always been a bit stiff when the adrenalin takes over.

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Originally Posted by Crackers

I watched a show recently on the troubles that Richard III had with Osteo, they had a bloke his size with roughly the same bend in his spine double to show how Richard could charge the French. Awesome show about blacksmithing the armour and quick training with the various weapons to see how his body would react.

I was watching a show on the similarities of most martial arts, it was centric around the use of bladed weapons and how most of our take downs etc are based on an opponent with a blade. The disarming and locking up of limbs in principle is exactly the same with or without a weapon (there is just less change of getting sliced if they do not have one handy). The show was mostly about Jujitsu, what was impressive was the fluidity of movement. It bought a whole new level to my training because I have always been a bit stiff when the adrenalin takes over.

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Adapting to circumstance & flowing is pretty integral to survival. Rigor Mortis is the ultimate stiffness & you need to avoid that in battle eh :)
The character Ju implies softness & compliance but it has an outcome. We use the phrase " Give way to conquer " so the goal is to allow the attacker to destroy themselves.

Of course this implies a commited aggressive attacker which most will say is unrealistic but if you can't deal with a committed force you will have no chance of dealing with a stalking uncommited attacker. A sensitivity has to be developed to receiving information & close range committed attacks are the starting point. Distance is gradually introduced & the forces at range then have a very strong reality. Just like the force between 2 repelling magnets,angles & directions of travel are an interplay that govern position & movement. As the student progresses to master there is a different 'spin' applied to the basic principles & the attacker & his attack is largely irrelevant. I often joke that the ultimate principle is to not be where the attacker is striking but it is much more than a joke.

Interesting Story of the Origins / History of JuJitsu

Names are not to be confused with people using the terms within their style's names of JuJitsu


Remember this is a story it sounds like it might be true because it sounds logical but that doesn't make it so :)


The first forms of JuJitsu came from the Samurai who needed to defend himself without a weapon on the battlefield, it targeted the wrist juncture (The Small Circle) since that was one of the easiest targets that a Samurai could get hold of, that was not armored.. By controlling the wrist, and wrenching joints and tendons or breaking the wrist an unarmed Samurai stood at least a bit of a chance against an armed opponent..
Once you had control of the wrist the arm would follow and so the body, locks, holds and takedowns were all based on the simple control of the wrist..

The next change to JuJitsu came when Swords and Armor came off, at that time a combatant was mostly facing being robbed in the streets, possibly by multiple opponents..
JuJitsu now focused more on not only the Wrist Juncture but the entire Arm and Shoulder Juncture (The Large Circle), More locks were available and strikes became more effective since there was no armor being worn... Takedowns, and Throws were added and refined, JuJitsu became more dynamic and a fuller art..

The Third generation came after Judo's influence and was mostly targeted the Ground techniques, Gracie made the most of this in the ring with BJJ..


Anyway just a story I picked up over the years that I thought you guys might enjoy...


Also I have heard two different meanings for Ju

The popular one of Gentle, Giving, Flexible

The one I was taught is more of a concept much like comparing the Oak to the Sapling where the Oak stands strong and solid and the Sapling bends easily and willingly building energy to snap back with double the force :) LOL pretty flowery huh :p

Kimchee rules, takes many yrs to become a master of the art.
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b3...ne/kimchee.jpg

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Interesting Story of the Origins / History of JuJitsu.........
Seems a likely progression Glensei. Of course also there is the neck & leg joints that are vulnerable. The attacking of vulnerable parts also worked with armor as the armor itself had joints for the sake of flexibility. The so called armor piercing knives ( yoroi doshi ) were stiff triangular spikes for taking adavantage of the weak spots in armor. Sorta like wedge razors :p


Also I have heard two different meanings for Ju

The popular one of Gentle, Giving, Flexible

The one I was taught is more of a concept much like comparing the Oak to the Sapling where the Oak stands strong and solid and the Sapling bends easily and willingly building energy to snap back with double the force :) LOL pretty flowery huh :p
That's it. Give way to conquer. :)

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Originally Posted by pixelfixed

Kimchee rules, takes many yrs to become a master of the art.

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Bill, I think yours is more like chemical warfare :roflmao

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Interesting Story of the Origins / History of JuJitsu

Remember this is a story it sounds like it might be true because it sounds logical but that doesn't make it so :)

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This is more or less true in broad terms.

However, it is important to consider that jujutsu was not a single art, or single system. There were various schools (ryuha) who were classified as jujutsu, jutaijutsu,taijutsu, etc. Each of those schools had their own approach and principles. Some have always focused more on one thing or another, and still do so today.

If you look at traditional Japanese jujutsu, the stances are still upright with feet closer together, and the movements, throws etc are still performed in a way that would work with yoroi or with modern military grade armor. Other arts related to ninjutsu and equally old have always been with wider stances and much more flexbile movement, jumping and dodging because they were typically performed while not wearing anything heavy.

Looking at the traditional arts, I'd say that the arts themselves are still the same as they have been for many centuries, but the prominence of various arts has waxed and waned as they became more or less popular due to the context of the society in which they existed at that given point in time.

As for myself, I did some kendo and judo when I was younger. In college I practiced modern jujutsu for 3 years or such, until I burned out on martial arts because I just had too much to do in the final year of my masters degree. After graduating I tried to start again, but working as a consultant made it difficult to commit to the class hours and it petered out again. A couple of years later I tried kendo again, but found it too far removed from realism, and I also didn't fancy getting hit on the head continuously.

7 years ago I felt the itch again, and I chanced upon a poster in the supermarket, advertizing that there was a new club opening in the communal dojo, practicing traditional jujutsu. I decided to join and liked the classes. My sensei and I also liked training with each other, and he himself was still a student under another sensei. A lot of things happend coincidentally and organically over the years, and I became sempai (senior student) and started running the club and teaching class in his absence.

The personality conflict between my sensei and his superior eventually exploded and after 'stuff happened' we decided unanimously to stick with our sensei and go on on our own, no longer part of the Japanese organization. We spend a lot of our time drilling basics because only through the basics can you really learn. Easily half our time goes to kihon (basic drills). We still do the same things, only much more thoroughly, but in the same traditional Japanese format. Not because of hubris, but because Japan is the source of what we do, and we like that approach.