To strop or not to strop. (Howard Schechter) Videos

We have seen all kinds of stropping methods on this site and for the folks who use them they work just fine. I've seen people hone razors and everything they do is "wrong" but they get great results. The issue to me is they have perfected this method and have become expert at it. For most of us the tried and true way works best and has been used for a very long time by professionals and non professionals.

The comparison with science is false because you're comparing a simple process with a highly complex one little understood years ago. There isn't much to analyze with stropping. It works or it doesn't and the empirical proof is immediately in front of you.

Someone once said "it's not what you do but what effect you have".

Guys with arthritic fingers may not be able to strop according to the barber manuals but still get a good shave... however... turning your wrist & flipping over the edge rather than the spine could lead to the belief that stropping more than 10 x will "roll" or damage an edge.

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Originally Posted by Marshal

.....I hate my coticule. But it does make one heck of a comfortable shaving edge, possibly more so than any other stone in my small collection....

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??? I don't get that.

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Originally Posted by trondsi

??? I don't get that.

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It's a bear to work with. Had to be burnished in spite of the fact that coticules are technically soft slurry stone. Can't be used as a slurry stone - it will upset the burnished surface. Can't be used with water or shave lather like all my other stones - the cutting material in the stone cuts too deep. Has to be used with a thin oil (50/50 mineral oil and mineral spirit) to create a nice edge. But once you DO get a good shaving edge on it, it is easily the most forgiving and comfortable edge out of all my finishing stones. Not the sharpest, it's only about an 8K stone. But shaves rather nicely.

There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance—that principle is contempt prior to investigation.

So I decided since Howard has close to 40 years experience with a straight razor that I would carefully consider what the man was saying. I mean what is the magic number? I was stropping probably around 70+ times after and 10-20 before a shave for a total of 80-90+ laps. Was it dull at 79 and magically sharp at 80? When was enough enough? So I lowered it to 10 after and 10 before. I have been doing this for over a week now with no noticeable degradation in the edge or shave results. If anything the edge may have gotten better! There are old barber manuals that also recommend a low number of laps on the strop. Old Howard may be on to something here.

Do what you want. Strop 100 times. Heck strop all day long, it won't bother me. Not me. Not anymore. I think I may have just found a new routine. So thanks to a couple SRP members - Howard and the OP that posted this.

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Originally Posted by AFDavis11

I think you are misunderstanding his views. He doesn't like honing compounds on his strops and he prefers about 10 strokes on the strop (no pastes). I do the same, so I'm compelled to say that's reasonable. I personally don't find any problem with more strokes on a strop. 60-100 doesn't cause any trouble for me. He says he prefers to hone to 30K and doesn't need to strop. I'm likely to agree with this perspective too. I wouldn't hone that high and I prefer to strop, but I know I can skip stropping anywhere above 12k.

I agree with his sentiment that you should keep a razor sharp. I don't agree that a dull razor compels you to go down to 1k. And, although I disagree with that, I wouldn't put too much credibility into a comment of an expert that's just chatting. It's easy to take a comment out of context. His point was simply . . . why let a razor get dull?

I assume you are referring to this video?

http://youtu.be/WcxgvywdgRw

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This says it much better than I did

We are complicating and splitting hairs. It's not about one person's experience of 40 years having any more validity than others. It's simple in that the act of stropping as we know it is way beyond the gentleman on whose opinion this conjecture is based, it, the process has longevity dating back centurues, and it's the process we can rely on, Not the attempt to legitimise it with scientific claptrap. Pretty easy, if stropping helps your shave, use it. If that is 20 strokes, or 120 strokes, the only difference is about 30 seconds. So I'm about to strop up my Hart 7/8 with my Kanayama #70000. Enough said.

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Originally Posted by bobski

We are complicating and splitting hairs. It's not about one person's experience of 40 years having any more validity than others. It's simple in that the act of stropping as we know it is way beyond the gentleman on whose opinion this conjecture is based, it, the process has longevity dating back centurues, and it's the process we can rely on, Not the attempt to legitimise it with scientific claptrap. Pretty easy, if stropping helps your shave, use it. If that is 20 strokes, or 120 strokes, the only difference is about 30 seconds. So I'm about to strop up my Hart 7/8 with my Kanayama #70000. Enough said.

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So how many laps are you going to do....?
:gaah:

4,862, I don't take any thing for granted and if that don't do it I'm doing another 5,637 by my calculations that would be the perfect amount ,,, or maybe just 20-30,, who knows,, but I,ll stand by my original statement, if your dulling your razor in a short stroke count , ie. 10 laps then your stropping SUCKS. I haven't managed to dull my blade after hundreds of laps. this is why I don't need to go to the stones very seldom. its like this if 10 is what you want to do then do it. if 200 is what you want to do then do it, but do it right and it will not degrade your edge, which is what was said, any more than 10 will degrade it,, that is B>S> after 50 or more laps on my strop mine becomes a smooth shaving tool.

so time to move on Tc

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Originally Posted by bobski

We are complicating and splitting hairs. It's not about one person's experience of 40 years having any more validity than others. It's simple in that the act of stropping as we know it is way beyond the gentleman on whose opinion this conjecture is based, it, the process has longevity dating back centurues, and it's the process we can rely on, Not the attempt to legitimise it with scientific claptrap. Pretty easy, if stropping helps your shave, use it. If that is 20 strokes, or 120 strokes, the only difference is about 30 seconds. So I'm about to strop up my Hart 7/8 with my Kanayama #70000. Enough said.

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I am not splitting hairs nor was it complicated. I took into careful consideration what the gentleman said, investigated and explored it, found it to be reasonable, and came up with a new routine. Simple. Enough said.

I use a Mastro Livi medium loom strop and 15-20 laps on the skin side leaves a smooth sharp edge. I've watched Mastro Livi strop and he has a unique stroke which I find works the best on his strop. I have used a hanging strop and was shown how to lap on it by my friend who is a old time barber. I do 20 to 25 on the strop and it gives me a great edge, smooth shave. A lot will depend on the leather, technique, and the blade material. If it works, your set.

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Originally Posted by tcrideshd

4,862, I don't take any thing for granted and if that don't do it I'm doing another 5,637 by my calculations that would be the perfect amount ,,, or maybe just 20-30,, who knows,, but I,ll stand by my original statement, if your dulling your razor in a short stroke count , ie. 10 laps then your stropping SUCKS. I haven't managed to dull my blade after hundreds of laps. this is why I don't need to go to the stones very seldom. its like this if 10 is what you want to do then do it. if 200 is what you want to do then do it, but do it right and it will not degrade your edge, which is what was said, any more than 10 will degrade it,, that is B>S> after 50 or more laps on my strop mine becomes a smooth shaving tool.

so time to move on Tc

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Sounds too me like your still stropping that Butter Knife, Ha, Ty

shaved with it to.. put all these razors to shame Tc

10 page, 90 post thread, simplicity for all....

I have to say I'm a little surprised by this back and forth. In my experience, more stropping (100 or more) definitely makes the edge keener and smoother. So if someone feels like it makes it dull, then I am inclined to think that they're doing it wrong.

I have experienced that immediately after honing and/or stropping on abrasive paste, sometimes the edge can feel fine after a short stropping. But to keep this going you need to hone it every time, which sounds like a bad idea. Conversely, I have found that using a fabric strop and pure leather extensively, you don't need to hone for a long while. This just makes more sense to me.

I recently was passing through Howard's neck of the woods, and stopped in with him for about an hour and a half of honing, razor talk, and conversation on a range of topics, many of them having nothing to do with razors. Having spent some time with him, seeing how his approach works, and having shaved with some razors we honed while I was there, I thought it worth a revisit to this thread to share my experiences.

First off, Howard is a a great guy, a fun hang, and has a depth of knowledge about, and passion for, razors, Blades, and hones that is second to none. He was extremely generous with his time and knowledge, to the point of arguably costing him some business, as the things he taught me are going to cause me to require fewer honings. Even if One is skeptical of his methods, a conversation with him as well worth one's time.

Now down to brass tacks; what are the edges like? The short answer is that the edges are good, and indeed are shave worthy sans stropping. I will say, however, that I don't know that they were noticeably better than honings I've had done by other reputable sources; as with most things, there is more than one way up The mountain. What I do think Howard's methods bring to the table is speed and efficiency in honing; if he hadn't been stopping to explain each step to me, and letting me try my hand at some of the steps, I'm pretty sure he could've had each of my razors done in about 10 minutes. He also is extremely adept at spotting issues with The geometry of the blade, and knowing how to correct them to make the honing process easier.

Finally, to speak to the The original controversy of the thread, I think his stropping technique, well unconventional, is actually very carefully considered, and is an outgrowth of his interest in keeping the process from being overly time-consuming. While I don't want to put words in his mouth, I think he would argue that the additional pressure he puts on the edge during stropping means he can accomplish in 10 strokes what it takes others 50 or 60 to do, and that if one can accomplish a task in less time with less effort, while maintaining comparable results, why not do that? It's not to say that other methods don't work, just that they take more time than is necessary.

At any rate, I hope this post is useful to anyone trying to make sense of the last 10 pages of comments, and I encourage anyone with questions on his approach to give him a call.

@FoliageFace you reminded me of this thread again, thank you. I've recently finished a good razor on an ancient coticule (think at least 2 generations, maybe 3). That stone gave me such an edge, that for the first time in my life I thought I didn't need the strop at all. I shaved with it and I was amazed. Not many natural stones are capable of that I guess and I should say, with stropping the edge comfort improved, as expected. I won't stop stropping any time soon, but this is to say, I guess anything is possible with the right tools.

As for compensating for the number of strokes with pressure on the strop.... perhaps, in the right hands. I doubt many would agree, or advise going that way. The difference between 10 strokes and 50 strokes is 2 minutes maximum, while taking a high risk of damaging the edge and having to go back to the stones for 15-20 mins (ymmv). That's just not for me I guess.

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Originally Posted by FoliageFace

Finally, to speak to the The original controversy of the thread, I think his stropping technique, well unconventional, is actually very carefully considered, and is an outgrowth of his interest in keeping the process from being overly time-consuming. While I don't want to put words in his mouth, I think he would argue that the additional pressure he puts on the edge during stropping means he can accomplish in 10 strokes what it takes others 50 or 60 to do, and that if one can accomplish a task in less time with less effort, while maintaining comparable results, why not do that? It's not to say that other methods don't work, just that they take more time than is necessary.

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Keep in mind though, that it was his contention that anything more than 10 laps of stropping is counter-productive because it rounds over the bevel. If he is saying that his 10 laps with pressure accomplish the same as most people's 50 laps, then are his 10 laps rounding over the bevel as well?

My complements to foliageface and his visit to Howard Schechter. You did what I did in October 2016. You'll find my little write up here.

http://straightrazorpalace.com/honin...ves-video.html

Sorry for the silence, I have been off he forums for a bit (life got busy). I don't think Howard is saying that any single stropping is going to round the bevel, unless one really goes to extremes. Rather, I think he is saying that all stropping (at least on a hanging strop), over time, will round off the bevel. With that in mind, I think he would argue that one should strop as little as necessary, as, by his logic, it causes a blade to require honing sooner.

Aloha!

If I were honing up to 30k, I'd probably not be a fan of stropping either. I currently hone to 10k, and have a 12k coming soon. But that will be it. I'm stopping at 12k. Huge jump from 12 to 30k. Obviously.

Yet, from all of the studying I've done, the blade edge is like a comb under high power magnification, and stropping helps put the teeth of the comb back into alighment. This is over-simplifying things, but that's the simple image in my mind. So even if I were 30k honing on a finish stone, I'd probably do some quick stropping to put the blade back into "alignment" for lack of a better way to say it.

Howard is, IMO, one of the masters. When he speaks, I listen. He's probably forgotten more about the art of honing and stropping than I will ever know. I do agree that some wet shavers try and use stropping to continue the honing process, and that's not what strops were intended to do. I actually agree with his lack of adding paste to a strop. And notice he's not rotating the razor on the spine when he strops. He's rotating blade EDGE down. Interesting. I remember my father's barber (when I was a young kid going to the barber shop with my dad) stropped this way, with the blade edge down as he rotated. And he stropped VERY fast. Speed of lightning. As long as you are not "rolling" the blade on the strop with the edge down, it's OK. But most of us have been taught to rotate on the spine, not the edge. That was burned into my stropping technique from the get-go.

-Zip

Stropping re-aligns the edge, so conversely insufficient stropping also would lead to needing honing sooner due to degradation of the edge.

I do not believe that stropping causes any harm to an edge. The degree of convexing of an edge by leather is trivial and the benefits far outweigh the supposed detriment.