Stropping Speed

This has most likely been discussed before, but my searches haven't brought up anything obvious, so...

Putting aside the need for going slow when learning to strop, which is very important, I know, do people have any thoughts on the role stropping speed plays in producing shaving edges?

There's a couple of reasons I ask. First, any time you see experienced straight users strop their razors (old barber videos, Lynn and Scott's videos etc) they are going at it at arm-blurring speeds. Why? Time minimisation? Because they can? Because it looks cool? Or because it produces superior edges?

Second, I've been wondering about friction heat and whether it aids edge alignment for quite a while now. We're talking very fine edges, and I'm wondering if anyone has any thoughts on that. Heat and metal go together, in a sense. Faster stropping would produce more friction, producing more heat at the edge. Do you think that's right, or am I way off?

I'd be very interested to hear your thoughts.

James.

Jimbo,

Standard disclaimers apply: opinions and advice from the poorly informed are sold at greatly inflated prices.;)

Strop speed is something you acquire with increased familiarity with the process and better muscle memory. The heat that is generated by stropping may be of benefit in helping dry a just used razor, but I can't imagine that it is enough to make the steel more malleable or ductile. Were that the case one should see color changes on the blade and that would be bad. Slow stropping should do the same job as fast stropping - it just takes longer.

By the by, I enjoyed reading your and Greg's comments on the mini convention. It sounded like great sport. Speaking of mini conventions, I had a very nice visit with my local honemeister, Randy Tuttle, at his home where he took me through the process of honing a razor - a Boker which I bought from Rich Dominquez. It shaves now. Thank you, Randy!!

Now if we could only find a way to get these minis maxified.

cheers, Bruce

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Originally Posted by Bruce

Jimbo,

Standard disclaimers apply: opinions and advice from the poorly informed are sold at greatly inflated prices.;)

Strop speed is something you acquire with increased familiarity with the process and better muscle memory. The heat that is generated by stropping may be of benefit in helping dry a just used razor, but I can't imagine that it is enough to make the steel more malleable or ductile. Were that the case one should see color changes on the blade and that would be bad. Slow stropping should do the same job as fast stropping - it just takes longer.

By the by, I enjoyed reading your and Greg's comments on the mini convention. It sounded like great sport. Speaking of mini conventions, I had a very nice visit with my local honemeister, Randy Tuttle, at his home where he took me through the process of honing a razor - a Boker which I bought from Rich Dominquez. It shaves now. Thank you, Randy!!

Now if we could only find a way to get these minis maxified.

cheers, Bruce

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Thanks Bruce - we had a great time. It really is amazing what you can learn face to face.

Yeah, I see what you are saying there - you wouldn't want to see colour changes, that's for sure. Thanks, more to ponder...

James.

I think strop speed is probably important only because its mentioned in barbering textbooks but I have yet to get any real sense of an improved edge using more speed. I use a fast stroke when I strop though as a matter of habit.

I'm not a big proponent of the heat thing but I could be swayed pretty easily. I do note the variation in the edge (using a microscope) after stropping and recommend you try that. It really gets you thinking once you actually see what happens. If you don't have a scope I'll say that to me it looks like a physical non-heat related blending of the steel.

Speed has nothing to do with the final result. Its the technique thats important. I remember in the old days when I was a kid and went to the barber and they still gave straight shaves the barber would slap that strop with the razor and go a mile a minute. Kind of like the show you get from the chef at a Japanese restaurant.

Your example sort of sounds like it backs the speed theory. I've had good results with slapping and high speed stropping.

Are you saying that a "mile a minute" is slow or that your own experience indicates that slow is just fine too?

I just want to clarify because all barbers I've seen stropped very fast.

I thought Bigspendur meant that they went fast, but maybe I'm wrong.

I've been thinking about it a bit more and I'm not sure we're talking about temper-ruining heat, even with the fastest stropping. I've heard you can do some damage with a Dremel if you're not careful, but I'm pretty sure no-one is stropping at 3000rpm (or whatever). I'm thinking more along the lines of "running the blade under the hot tap" type heat :shrug:

Surely realigning the edge must be helped by friction heat. :thinking:

James.

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Originally Posted by Jimbo

I'm thinking more along the lines of "running the blade under the hot tap" type heat :shrug:

Surely realigning the edge must be helped by friction heat. :thinking:

James.

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Interesting, this reminds me of the old trick of heating a stubborn metal jar lid in hot water to expand the metal lid and thus making opening the jar easier.

I can see how inducing heat via contact friction on the strop could slightly expand the edge of a razor during tooth alignment and then when it cools/contracts the edge/teeth would be more compressed/tighter as opposed to cold/slow stropping. :hmmm:

Just my 2 cents.

We talked a little about this yesterday in Brisbane and i still dont have a good answer... i really dont know.

One thing that has occured to me is that when you are stopping the draw or feel of the leather changes and i am guessing that could have something to do with the feather flattening out and the leather warming up a little.

As leather, and other stuff, gets warmer on its surface the oils within it are drawn to the heat and the surface becomes more supple and grippy

(grippy is a wonderful sherwen-ism for fans of tour de france racing)

I would think that the faster you strop the less chance the leather has to cool down between passes and the more draw is developed...

This is all a bit of a guess though... Im still no closer to an educated answer than I was yesterday... any of that stike a chord though?

Greg Frazer

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Originally Posted by Bruce

I had a very nice visit with my local honemeister, Randy Tuttle, at his home where he took me through the process of honing a razor...

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That'd be pretty cool... his forum posts suggest to me that he'd be an interesting person to spend a couple of hours talking to.

Greg Frazer

i like Greg's reasoning. I run my hand along the strop a few times before stropping to warm it up. Same idea

Yes, that makes sense to me. Sounds like the general feeling is that speed is not in and of itself important in terms of producing heat - *if* heat is an issue, high speed stropping is no more effective than lower speeds. Most important thing is technique. Does that sound fair?

James.

I would fall into the speed doesn't matter one whit category. There are days when my razor just seems to fly over the strop and other days when my five thumbs can't seem to hold on to the thing. It doesn't seem to matter in my shave though. I can have a good shave on a slow stropping day or a fast one it really doesn't matter.

My point was that the barbers did the speed thing for two reasons. #1 time is money and it saved time and #2 it was like a show. From my own experience speed means nothing. Of course I always use the linen first and that supposedly warms up the edge before it hits the leather. If you don't use the linen and apply the cold edge to the leather certainly very slow stropping won't build much heat.

But have we ever even determined that a warm edge strops better than a cold one?

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

My point was that the barbers did the speed thing for two reasons. #1 time is money and it saved time and #2 it was like a show. From my own experience speed means nothing. Of course I always use the linen first and that supposedly warms up the edge before it hits the leather. If you don't use the linen and apply the cold edge to the leather certainly very slow stropping won't build much heat.

But have we ever even determined that a warm edge strops better than a cold one?

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No, we haven't, I don't think. And that's the crux of my original question, now that I think about it.

When I was at Trumpers the salesman suggested that years ago, before hot water was as easily available, linen-or canvas-sided strops were necessary to develop some heat on the blade before leather stropping. He didn't elaborate more than that.

Now, I don't know what expertise he has in the area of strops and straights, especially given the abundance of DEs and Mach 3 handles Trumpers sells, but I thought about it - he definitely wasn't trying to sell me anything, as I'd already bought a B-L off him. It made me wonder though.

I think it's safe to assume heat is generated by stropping. Not a tonne, but some. The edge is the finest part on the blade, and if you are stropping properly it is in complete contact with the leather. I have no evidence to back it up, but my gut feeling is that the friction heat makes the edge more malleable, if that's the word, and enables better physical alignment of the edge than if it was cold. Of course, it's slightly redundant because rubbing the blade on anything is going to create heat to some extent.

But I'm no metal smith ...

James.

I think its important though to remain objective.

First we have every example of stropping so far, including our own practice; done with speed.

Second, from from the Standard Practice of Barbering we have "Bear just heavy enough to attain a draw, rapid speed is necessary and this will come to you as you practice" (p. 76)

The rest of this business about heat seems to come right out of a text book example of how not to conduct analysis, a pure logic flaw.

We think we have heat and we think we have a thin metal that might be influenced by heat, therefore it is heat that is stropping the edge.

The leather is also sticky and the edge is also thin.

Now I strop using high speed, I think it might be important, and when I strop I can touch the edge and it feels warm, again I don't know that that means that heat is doing all, or some of the work.

But I'm a little confused, how we can say heat is an issue but speed is not?

Does anyone actually believe that you could strop just as effectively if you stropped reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaalllllllllllllllyyyyyyyyyyy slowly, like one minute per stroke? And if you believe that then doesn't that mean that, its just as likely, that both heat and tension are aligning the edge?

I strop with speed and think it may be important but only from the fact that a text book says it is, but again I've never picked up on a difference (which doesn't mean much. I've never looked for a difference). I'm sure others remain unswayed by a textbook. But then we have everyone in the community doing it fast too.

To me, if we all agree that stropping slowly works just as well (and I'm not agreeing with this one yet) then I think its not just heat that is doing the stropping action.

If heat is a factor I would think that all of us would say that speed is important too.

What prevents both heat and tension working together? Or if heat is a component of stropping wouldn't the textbook be right about speed?

I guess my mind is having a hard time wrapping around the idea that it is either tension or heat or both that is stropping the edge, yet, we are also certain that speed is not an issue.

Let me ask this question, since I strop with a heavy hand and very high speed; could this be the reason everyone else thinks I'm nuts stropping only 10 strokes when others swear by 50?

I am of the opinion that fast is best when stropping, BUT..slower and more considered stropping will achieve a good result. Going slow to the point of boiling a kettle and rolling a smoke between strokes would possible do some good but I would not be surprised if it did b****lox. :)

Heat generation can not be avoided when stropping at the 'correct speed' and perhaps this is why you say the text books say to strop fast. Are these texts teaching the "practice" of shaving or the science, I'm inclined to the former. Surely there would be no need to understand the science underlying stropping when all you would need to teach stropping is HOW. Many trades where taught by the old/skilled craftsman teaching his apprentice what he knew. Would they have seen the benefit in going into the science of there skill with this young hopeful when the "do as I do" approach would have passed on the necessary skills needed.
I am a proponent of stropping on the linen and feel this step in the overall process is justified not only on results but also by history. This may be locality dependent, as I notice a lot of old strops from the US don't have linen where most from Europe do. Old US strops tend to have the 2 grades of leather (coarse/finish) which obviously works and mimics the leather/linen style. I have some strops with the duel leather setup and find it as good, when the coarse leather is "coarse".
I am unsure on the science of how it all works but common sense and experience tells me that a good pace over the linen followed by the same over the leather produces the best results, and yes, I don't agree with linen straight after a fresh honing but only leather first.

PuFF

Well rather then jawing about this why doesn't someone do an experiment. This is easy. You just need one razor. A week of stropping say on plain leather really slow at say one stroke every 5 secconds, then another week every second then a week at two strokes a second and then throw in the linen another week for good measure. If you had one of those infrared heat detectors you could even measure the surface of the edge to see what was going on.

Well, I'm happy to volunteer for stropping duty, though I don't have an infrared detector or a linen/canvas-sided strop. It might be good also if other people could also do the same so we can have some cross-validation. But regardless, I'll try it out.

Same razor each time for the next few weeks. As BigSpendur suggests (week 1 slow, week 2 a bit quicker etc...). Same number of strokes each time (say 30).

James.

That sounds good. Since the razor won't be honed in between it should be easily to validate if speed improves the edge.

I'll try the same thing myself. I think I left my IR heat detector in Iraq though.

I'm still interested in whether heat supports any of the stropping action.

As long as we're tossing about theories on the value of speed as called for in the barber's manuals, I'll offer my theory...they stropped fast because it better served the customer. As you read through those old manuals, there is an ever present theme of serving their customer (what a concept, eh?...talk about 'a lost art'). The service was the shave. The stropping was just the supporting maintenance so getting it done with speed and visible flair and confidence would best serve the guy who was waiting on his shave.

Just one man's opinion.

- Dale

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

Well rather then jawing about this why doesn't someone do an experiment. This is easy. You just need one razor. A week of stropping say on plain leather really slow at say one stroke every 5 secconds, then another week every second then a week at two strokes a second and then throw in the linen another week for good measure. If you had one of those infrared heat detectors you could even measure the surface of the edge to see what was going on.

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Do I detect a note of cynicism :roflmao well I found the comments funny anyway :tu
F***K experiments, just do what works for you :D This is all about the fun with learning the skill. No fun in having all the knowledge handed to you on a plate :)

PuFF

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Originally Posted by Spokeshave

As long as we're tossing about theories on the value of speed as called for in the barber's manuals, I'll offer my theory...they stropped fast because it better served the customer. As you read through those old manuals, there is an ever present theme of serving their customer (what a concept, eh?...talk about 'a lost art'). The service was the shave. The stropping was just the supporting maintenance so getting it done with speed and visible flair and confidence would best serve the guy who was waiting on his shave.

Just one man's opinion.

- Dale

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True. But the shave itself would also have had to have been smooth and relatively painless for the customer too, so I'm still gunning for the speed/better shave theory.

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Originally Posted by PuFFaH

Do I detect a note of cynicism :roflmao well I found the comments funny anyway :tu
F***K experiments, just do what works for you :D This is all about the fun with learning the skill. No fun in having all the knowledge handed to you on a plate :)

PuFF

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You're right - I'm sure people, after a while, end up stropping in the most effective way for them - everyone's doing their own personal experiments every day. But I'm genuinely curious about what's going on. If a certain speed is required there's no harm in letting people know. They still have to find their own ways of getting there.

James.

Point taken Jimbo.

PuFF

I take your point too PuFF. It's all pretty academic in the end, as everyone will eventually end up stropping at some level of speed anyway. Let's just say I'm indulging my own curiousity ;)

James.

Well I suppose we'll start a whole new thread on this soon but todays shave sucked. I recall using a slow stropping speed in the past but using a paddle not a hanging strop. I took a freshly honed razor and stropped with a feather light touch 30 strokes really, really slow. That was a miserable failure. I returned to the strop using a little pressure so I could feel the edge stropping and did an additional 20 and got an ok/mediocre shave this morning. The cutting ability was there but the smoothness lacked. I have a habit of stropping on my hand during passes so I have to remember not to do that since that smoothes the shave out a little. I'll give is a 4 out of 10. I returned home to reshave after work. Freshly honed and stropped slowly produced a worse shave than yesterday. I may give the razor a few shaves to smooth out. I even had to check to make sure wasn't overhoned. Yuck. But once I applied a little pressure I could feel the edge drawing and that was comforting.

For those interested in the collary thread I'll call it "Stropping Speed Experiment"

I've been investigating stropping from a different aspect. I went to get strop leather from a shop that's been making hand made saddles a very long time. The saddle maker asked if I wanted 'hard or soft' because that's the way he had them sorted for sale. Large boxes of each.

I picked out some 'hard' finish because it more resembled typical strop leather. Then, I went over to the 'soft' and got some of it. Purchased by the pound, 2 bucks worth is going to be enough to make several paddles.

Anyway, the difference in draw between the various finishes is extreme. Softer finishes produce major draw with very little downward pressure. The harder finishes produce almost no draw. Neatsfoot oil or strop dressing will be required for them.

Anyway, for my two bucks, the draw or amount of friction between leather and blade is a significant factor in aligning the blade and also generating heat, perhaps as much as speed. More will be revealed when I find the microscope I'm shopping for.

FWIW, Weldon (my first barber) used to slap hell out of a hanging strop attached to the side of the chair after every haircut. That's because even a kid's cut came with mug and brush lather and straight razor neck shave. He would also hit the linen once in a while.

And yes, it was entertaining.

Regards

Another thing for your consideration is the strop length. I thought about this whilst using my short strop. A longer stroke would put more heat into the blade (assuming it is the heat that makes the difference).