Different Razors need Different Stropping

I want to share some stropping observations gained recently from observing the actual razors on my hanging strop that may help others, especially those new to stropping (I'm fairly new myself).

When I started, I thought that it was critical to keep a strop taught and apply no or virtually no pressure to the blade, basically passing the blade back and forth on the strop with only the weight of the blade. I produced no results with this, in fact the middle of my edges dulled since unbeknown to me, I was causing my strop to cup with the tension, become concave and not even touch the middle of the edge.

Deflection and some pressure in my experience if reasonable, is not only a good thing, it's necessary. The intent is to polish that edge after all. That edge simply has to make contact with the strop across the entire edge. There is a danger, I assume of "rounding" the edge of the blade if pressed too firmly into the strop or the strop is left to be too slack, but I think it's important to remember that edge although delicate, is not tin foil. I have not rounded my edges yet with my stropping.

The main reason I wanted to create this post is to point out that each blade based on its quirks will require small but critical alterations to stropping technique. Just as some blades need alterations during honing (warped blade, etc), it's no different with stropping. You can therefore learn A LOT by really looking closely at how that edge lays on the strop before starting a stroke. Is the entire edge completely flat on the strop on BOTH sides? If not, you'll need to slack the strop a bit on the side that has some of the edge not making contact until the entire edge contacts the strop. I have a great razor that requires about 1/4" slack on one side and I would say close to 1" slack on the other to have both sides of the edge receive a good polish.

If I get time, I'll post some close up pics illustrating what I'm talking about.

What I'm having difficulty understanding here is why is the blade not laying evenly on the strop so you have to have more deflection with the strop with certain razors. I have about 90 razors and I hold the strop the same for all of them and have no problems. Maybe it a problem you have holding the razor straight depending on the geometry of the individual razor. True, honing a razor is different for every razor but I don't think its the same with a strop.JMHO

This might make an interesting discussion. I've never noted different razors needing to be stropped differently.

I will say though that stropping, secretly, is a combination of polishing the "wetted" edge and "shaping" the edge. The polishing occurs with a flat strop and the shaping with a little sag. I use about 1mm, and this helps prevent the bumpiness associated with a taut strop.

I'm wondering. If you have honed different razors, with differring geometrys, differently. Once honed a little differently, maybe they would respond differently to more or less "shaping".

I can't exactly imagine though how one might do that.

Ohhhh, I re-read your post. Your talking about an inbalance. I'd be examining the spine big time!

I've noticed that I get better results with paddle strops over hanging and vise versa with some razors. Sometimes it's just how I hold my mouth when I am stropping. ;)

I don't know about different stropping for different razors - there may be subtle variations and I've never observed that closely to know. What I do know is that I run into all sorts of bother with my Heljes because of the thumb notch on the underside of the shank. I've got long fingernails on my right hand for playing the guitar, and my thumb nail gets in the way when I strop razors with thumb notches. So I definitely modify my flipping action with these razors.

James.

There must be a time limit to edit posts, I can't add pics to my original post on this topic, so I'll add them here. Thanks go out to my wife for actually taking the pics since my hands were occupied and since she's bored to ever living tears with all my razor stuff!:shrug:;)

Disclaimer:...:cool: I am in no way advocating that I've found the "right way" to strop here. Nor am I saying that in my experience ALL razors need to be stropped using deflection/slack of varying degrees rather than stropping with the strop essentially taught and parallel to the ground. I'm simply sharing my experience on how I've found that I have to incorporate deflection/slack of varying degrees to ensure that the entire edges on BOTH sides of some of my razors make complete contact with the strop. All would agree, I'm sure that frequently a razor can lie flat on a flat surface on one side of the blade but not the other. So....in my experience, if a razor does not lie flat on one side of the blade, gotta slack the strop on that side or press the blade down on the strop with more pressure. I prefer slacking the strop. My camera is not the greatest and do not focus on how I'm holding the razor; I don't hold razors this way when stropping, I needed to get my hands up and out of the way for the pics.

OK, OK, you're saying "enough already, get on with it!"
Attachment 6288
The Strop: A Dovo 3" "Russian Style". Rather than smooth, this strop sports a buffed surface. Velvety. I really like using this strop and it makes for great edges.
Attachment 6289
The Razor: Lynn sold this to me honed by him of course. I LIKE this razor!
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The "control" pic. Level and taught.
Attachment 6291
You'll have to trust me on this, but this pic was snapped when the level showed the same reading as in the previous pic. Not cool, guys. Although the surface of this strop is just wonderful, the leather is about 1/2 as thick as my Tony Miller red latigo and as such cups much easier. Stropping in general with this taughtness makes for absolutely zero effectiveness except for the heel and toe. Gotta keep this strop a bit slacked, period.
Attachment 6292
Here's flat on this strop with edge facing me.
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But......here's how slack this particular strop had to be to get the razor lying that flat on that side of the blade. This is with minimal downward pressure applied to the blade. I wouldn't say no pressure or virtually no pressure, but very light pressure.
Attachment 6295
Now in this pic, the edge of the blade is still facing toward me, but I flipped the razor to my left hand. This is the side of the blade that normally would have the edge facing AWAY from me. This gives a better view in my cramped bathroom and allows ME to see the edge as well where normally since the spine would be facing me using my right hand as in normal stropping, I would not be able to see the edge and how it lays on the strop. I hope that makes sense. I swapped hands simply to get the best view of how the other side of the blade was laying on the same surface in which the first blade side was flat on the strop. Whoa.............what do we see here though? THIS side of the blade is NOT flat. By using the same small amount of slack on the strop that got the other side of the blade's edge to lie flat on the strop and not making an adjustment by either pressing this edge on this side into the strop with greater pressure (I don't want to do that) or slacking for this edge more, overall, I would have ineffective and really useless stropping. I never would have realized this without really studying both sides of the blade on this strop and how it lays. Instead I would have assumed I could use the same technique, same strop taughtness for both sides of this blade and since that back edge lifted off the strop would never get stropped, the edge would just keep getting duller and duller quite quickly until the blade would pull pull pull during shaving. I would then, in ignorance as to what was really causing the dulling blame it on the person who honed the edge; when in fact this edge was/is sweet from Lynn.
Attachment 6296
Finally, this is how slack I had to have this strop on that "back side" of the razor in order to get it to lie as flat as it needs to be for proper contact across the entire edge.

I hope this helps others, really newbies like me (I did make it to "Senior Member" prior to the crash, but I still very much consider myself a newb). See, early on I assumed that I could apply the same exact unwavering technique with stropping any/all razors. You know, the flat, taught, virtually no pressure text book method. It frustrated me to no end as I could not keep my edges sharp!! Man oh man was it frustrating. Almost wanted to hang this whole thing up back then. Then, I really looked closely at each razor before and when stropping. Using deflection/slack when needed and in the varied amounts needed (even on different sides of the same blade) allowed me to transition from frustration and ineptitude to being able to confidently say that I can now strop my razors effectively.

Naturally, all of this is from my personal experience. Others may be able to take any razor, have that strop flat, apply the EXACT same technique to any and all razors and strop superbly. That didn't work for me is all.

Well you see that's the problem with those extra wide strops. I had the very same strop and I didn't like it. They do tend to cup. The amount of slack you are using is really way too much however obviously you have mastered using it that way and it works for you so thats fine. However I think if you used a standard strop that way you might have problems or maybe I should say most people would have problems. As we say whatever method you use if it works for you its proper.

The good news about strop sag is that although it usually dulls a blade the angle that the strop actually contacts into the edge is often not that bad.

I still get the feeling your alluding to changing the sag level differently on each side. I'm imagining that your changing the sag level mid-stroke. I hope that isn't what you mean.

BTW, I prefer using a taut strop and a little pressure to solve this problem. If you've solved the geometry issue though and the blade is flat then your good to go.

I'd suggest though that you watch for premature dulling, but 20 good shaves are better than 40 okay shaves.

I'm wondering if I'm missing a picture too. How many pictures are in this thread? I see one.

I see them now: Picture 13 has an acceptable amount of sag, not a big deal. You'll probably be shaping the edge in a little while your buffing it.

I can't really imagine though with that strop that some razors are laying flat and some are not. The basic geometry of all your razors should be similar.

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

Well you see that's the problem with those extra wide strops. I had the very same strop and I didn't like it. They do tend to cup. The amount of slack you are using is really way too much however obviously you have mastered using it that way and it works for you so thats fine. However I think if you used a standard strop that way you might have problems or maybe I should say most people would have problems. As we say whatever method you use if it works for you its proper.

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I was surprised by the amount of slack needed to get the blade to lie flat on both sides of some of my razors as well. I'm definitely not making any assertion that I think the above method is better than a more traditional way of stropping for regular use with flat razors. For me, this method has helped in the instances when due to the characteristics of an individual razor I'm required to slack the strop. I have other razors that lie flat on both sides and don't require slack.

Although the tendency for this strop to cup in a concave manner and a razor that is significantly off from flat on one or both sides can produce the same result of ineffective stropping. The issue I've had that I point out in this post is NOT related to cupping. Slacking the strop prevents cupping.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AFDavis11

The good news about strop sag is that although it usually dulls a blade the angle that the strop actually contacts into the edge is often not that bad.

I still get the feeling your alluding to changing the sag level differently on each side. I'm imagining that your changing the sag level mid-stroke. I hope that isn't what you mean.

BTW, I prefer using a taut strop and a little pressure to solve this problem. If you've solved the geometry issue though and the blade is flat then your good to go.

I'd suggest though that you watch for premature dulling, but 20 good shaves are better than 40 okay shaves.

I'm wondering if I'm missing a picture too. How many pictures are in this thread? I see one.

I see them now: Picture 13 has an acceptable amount of sag, not a big deal. You'll probably be shaping the edge in a little while your buffing it.

I can't really imagine though with that strop that some razors are laying flat and some are not. The basic geometry of all your razors should be similar.

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No, I'm not changing mid stroke. If the razor needs it (more slack to allow for full contact of the edge on that side with the strop) then it might be a fairly taught strop on the "away" stroke and prior to completing the pass toward me, slacking the strop a bit more on the "forward" stroke. It's easy to see on some razors when they're laying flat on a hone that the edge or parts of an edge are off the hone (warped razor) on one side of the blade or the other. On a taught strop, why wouldn't the same thing happen (part of the razors edge doesn't lie flat on the taught strop) if using only the weight of the blade, no or virtually no pressure?

I'm wondering what would be "worse" for an edge: having to press the blade into the strop to make full contact with some razors or slacking as seen above with much less pressure?:shrug: Maybe it's a wash?:shrug:

Chrisl,

I think you would really benefit from reading the 1961 Barbers Manual in the archives, particularly page 26.

If you have read it how would you respond/comment to the text which states "Guard against sagging. The pressure of the razor must be heavy enough to feel a firm drag or draw" (p. 26)

I would suspect, given what you've said so far, that you would have achieved a draw on one side of the blade and not on the other.

Thoughts?

We posted simultaneously. I think you can surmise my position on your question. But your right, either option might be a wash.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AFDavis11

I think you would really benefit from reading the 1961 Barbers Manual in the archives, particularly page 26.

If you have read it how would you respond/comment to the text which states "Guard against sagging. The pressure of the razor must be heavy enough to feel a firm drag or draw" (p. 26)

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Thanks for the suggestion, Alan. I will definitely read from the manual; I haven't yet and I'm certain I'll benefit from it.

Your quote from the manual that I've emboldened really caught my eye. The words like: "pressure", "heavy", "firm" seem to counter what I originally thought (incorrectly as I see here) when starting back in October. I thought stropping was to be done as honing a typical razor is done: no or virtually no pressure. Granted we're still talking about a delicate edge, so I know the manual doesn't mean to try to push the razor through the strop ;), but I'm going to practice a taut strop with more pressure on the razor. I'll let you know how it goes. Thanks again. I appreciate any help you guys can give.

Chris L

Yea, the pressure thing becomes a dilemma, given what we know about what everyone else does. Let me add though that the pressure is "enough to feel a draw" and that the sharper a razor is the less pressure you need to use to feel a draw.

Thus, everyone could have a different point of view on how much pressure is needed to get a good edge and we'd all be right.

So, sharper = thinner and thinner = less pressure.

I'm at the point actually where I have to lessen the sharpness of my blades in order to strop it up perfect for a smooth cut.

I can do the whole feather light touch thing but its a little more difficult. I like to just hone it off a barber hone and then strop "effectively" to get a wicked perfect shave.

I thought that, based on your current situation, that I might convince you of the benefit of taut/pressure over sagging.

Its an amazingly simple read though.

Also, I just replied, like a day or two ago to someone about how to old the strop. There are some hand hold techniques, like wrist rolling, that can minimize the problem your strop is experiencing. Ultimately the strop needs to be flat.

I was afraid, since you hadn't responded for a while that I might have offended you. That wasn't my intention at all. Just wanted to provide another point of view.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AFDavis11

I was afraid, since you hadn't responded for a while that I might have offended you. That wasn't my intention at all. Just wanted to provide another point of view.

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Definitely not, no offense. Reading those pages of the manual you suggested was one of the best things I've done in relation to my razorship in quite some time. Heh, I've even taped the page showing the strop and razor position on my bathroom wall above my strop to study it more and to practice the stroke with a dull razor on the backside of one of my strops (haven't done that yet, but I will).

That should be required reading for all new SRP members!!:tu

There is a lot of good info in this thread. Thanks guys.