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I'm just wondering what the magic trick is. I can hone (Norton 4/8 K) and paddle strop (only 1.0 diamond at this point) my razor so that it cuts arm hairs really well but I just can't seem to get it HHT sharp. What is the deal? Will stropping make that much of a difference? Thanks.
The HHT doesn't work for everyone. It all
depends on your hair type. I use the hair
from my goatee and it works good. I've also
used the hair from my chest :cry: with success.
The hair you're using may be too fine to work.
You may be able to shave great with the blade
but not pass the HHT from your head.
John
Maybe your razor is still not as sharp as you think that it is. I can make my pocket knives easily shave arm hair off a 1K stone. Do you have a honemeister edge to compare the tests to including the "shave test"?Quote:
Originally Posted by alpinmack
No. I'm one of those stubborn newbies who want to do it themselves. And yes, I've heard from everyone that I should have a perfect edge to start with. I know, but I still want to do for myself first. I guess that means I don't have a good excuse huh?Quote:
Originally Posted by heavydutysg135
hmm, this sounds a lot like me, when I started not long ago. To your comfort, I did manage to get a shave ready edge by my self, but in the clear light of hindsight(?) it may have been to some help to have a benchmark edge to compare to.Quote:
Originally Posted by alpinmack
Then I am sure that it could be sharper.Quote:
Originally Posted by alpinmack
Yes, stropping can make it pass the HHT.
I guess that it would be easy enough to find out for yourself right? :)
I agree with Alan. Stropping will improve your razor's response to all The Standard Sharpness Tests.
X
The magic trick is the doing the whole shebang correctly. Stopping is just the last step -- it is very important, and improper stopping with too much pressure can certainly dull a well-honed blade. My best luck comes with gentle honing and gentle stopping.Quote:
Originally Posted by alpinmack
E
Yes. All of my razors have passed the HHT after stropping only.
Scott
This revelation could mean the end to HAD and save more money than ridding the earth of the smallpox scourge. Scott, please share your technique:bowQuote:
Originally Posted by honedright
You have two questions, with two answers:Quote:
Originally Posted by alpinmack
First, the title of your post: "Can stropping by itself make a razor pass the HHT?". That leaves a wide open door - stropping can't take an ancient, pitted eBay special to shaving sharp, and there is a lot of degrees of sharp in between that need a hone to start with.
However, from the body of you post, it seems your primary question assumes a good honing base and wonders "Will stropping make that much of a difference?" Absolutely, with out a doubt, yes. I shave hairs from my arm with all my woodworking edge tools but they won't shave my face. There is still some distance between your very sharp honed edge and shaving sharp. Your pasted strop gets closer, but I suggest effective stropping on an unpasted strop takes it further. IMHO....and in my experience.
- Dale
Bruce -Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce
My technique is based on the technique taught in barber manuals. A good example is the Milady Practice and Science of Standard Barbering by Thorpe. I posted some photos from the book in the "Stropping 101" thread showing the basic stropping pattern. This is the basic X pattern stropping.
What I do differently is, instead of using a purely straight stroke diagonally across the strop (it helps to see the photo), I sweep the razor in more of an arc. The razor still starts and ends in the same places on the strop, the path is just slightly different. Much of the movement is the forearm pivoting at the elbow. The upper arm remains relatively still.
I started doing this after watching a barber at my local shop strop one of his razors. I found that this method allowed for very fluid and rapid stropping.
The other factors involved are:
1) Focus pressure on the back of the razor keeping it in contact with the strop. This helps take pressure off of the edge preventing the "rolled" edge that others have mentioned.
2) I use my thumb at the edge of the razors mid shank to roll the razor back and forth and to control downward pressure of the razor against the strop.
3) Of course, keep the strop fairly taught. You don't need a death grip on the strop, but enough to take out all the slack.
4) Listen to and feel your razor while stropping. Others have mentioned this phenomenon. I don't think that there is any adequate way to teach this on an online forum. It's something that you will just have to be attentive to and develop over time. But there is a certain sound and feel that will tell you when you are stropping effectively.
5) Learn the Thumb Pad Test. There is sticky and then there is really sticky. And it's not just sticky that you are trying to feel. Even the barber manuals divide up the different types of sensations that can be detected when simply brushing the moistened thumb pad along the keen edge of the razor. You want a smooooth sticky. It's sort of sublime, almost zen like. Very difficult to pick up at first. It's something that really requires the presence of an experienced individual to show you. Then you would know immediately what it should feel like.
Of course you could just do shave tests as promoted by some of the more experienced members here. I find that a little too time consuming. I'd rather have a method that doesn't require first lathering up, then trying to shave, re-stropping, re-lathering, re-shaving, re-honing, etc, etc...
I've found that a razor that passes the TPT per the above will also pass the HHT with flying colors.
That's all I can think of for now regarding stropping technique. If I think of more, I'll be sure to add it.
Scott
Just want to add that to do the TPT correctly, you either have to have woman hands or make sure your thumb is wet. Otherwise you will never get that "zen" like feeling. It feels like the razor is actually sucking into your thumb. Almost like a gravitational pull.Quote:
Originally Posted by honedright
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce
Ha, that'd be nice, wouldn't it.
+1 on Scott's (Hondright) point #2. Very good post Scott! I use the same elbow pivot described by Scott, that I also think is very important. After awhile you don't need edge testing. You just know the razor isn't any different than the last time you shaved with it.
Thanks Scott.Quote:
Originally Posted by honedright
I'd add that in addition to preventing the rolled edge, this is a big help in learning consistency. It allows you to keep a firm enough pressure on the strop to control the process, while leaving the pressure light on the edge to get that extra fine edge.
I also echo the helpfulness of the sound and the TPT. All of this takes time, practice, and patience.
- Dale
That's how I did it. If you manage to get a comfy shave with a razor that you honed you're in business regardless whether your blade is less sharp than your reference razor.Quote:
Originally Posted by alpinmack
Scott,
Whatever way you move the razor across the leather, at the end of the day you have to remove metal to get a sharp edge. A stroke on the leather wil remove a minimal amount of metal compared to a stroke on the hone. If your razor isn't almost shave sharp it will take you ages to get it sharp with a strop only.
Last week it took me hours to hone out a hardly visible corroded section on the edge of a Puma (ebay special) using 1500 and 5000 grit Shaptons. That must take days of continuously stropping on leather unless it is pasted with coarse grit paste.
Quote:
Originally Posted by honedright
I presume you never bought a razor on ebay or in an antique shop but only brand new ones. How do you get rid of chips/nicks/rusty bits etc. on the edge only using a strop?Quote:
Originally Posted by honedright
Maybe there was some confusion from the original question?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kees
I didn't say I don't hone my razors! I don't always (in fact rarely) pass HHT off of the hone. In fact I usually don't even check for HHT off of the hone (I use the thumb nail test while honing). But I often test for HHT off of the strop (and I usually perform the thumb pad test as well after stropping).
I interpreted the question as "can a razor that won't pass the HHT now (assuming the razor had been honed at some time) be made to pass the HHT with stropping only." I can take a razor that may have been honed, for instance 6 months ago, and had passed the HHT, and had been shaving nicely, but now will not pass the HHT. With stropping only, I can bring that razor back to HHT sharpness. That's how I was answering the question.
If the question was "can a dull or damaged razor be made HHT sharp by stropping alone" I would have answered probably not. Although I might consider it possible only after inspecting the razor and even giving it a try.
Also, most of my razors are antique store finds or from ebay. Some have had very minor dings and chips.
Hope that clears things up.
Scott
With all due respect, I question this assumption. What is happening when you dull it with a shave? Is that removing the metal at the edge? If so, then wet, lubricated hair and skin is removing the metal. Hmmm:hmmm:. If the wet hair and skin doesn't remove metal to dull it, what does it do? Perhaps it just misshapes it. If so, isn't it possible then, that an untreated strop can reshape it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kees
Isn't it possible that the final razor's edge is a delicate edge that can be shaped by stropping even without removing metal? An edge that's delicate enought that wet whiskers dull it as they misshape it?
Just thinking outside the diamond paste box.
- Dale
It can, but its likely to take awhile... :roflmaoQuote:
Originally Posted by Spokeshave
I once took a Wostenholm wedge and sliced through cardboard until it was too dull to shave armhair even with pressure. It took a bit more than a thousand laps on linen before it would shave as well as it did before. That sounds like a lot, but it was only about 45 minutes of stropping - my right arm wasn't working right for a few days after though.
I don't think the leather really does much sharpening. I've tried to get moderately dull razors sharp by stropping on leather with only minor improvement after hundreds of laps. But the linen on the other hand can make dramatic improvements in the edge.
I'm picky when selecting antique store razors. A little rust is ok, easily removed with fine steel wool and some elbow grease (never a strop). Chips? No thanks. Too much trouble when there are plenty of undamaged razors out there to choose from. And new ones too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kees
Scott
I can get a blade to pass HHT before stropping, but sometimes it becomes so sharp that it's uncomfortable to shave with...Quote:
Originally Posted by honedright
also I tried the same approach as you are, and got some decent shaves off of my honed razors but they were far from what I would now consider shave ready. It's amazing how much of a difference you can see when you have something to compare to. and even small tricks like stropping on newspaper can help you acheve phenominal improvements when you're starting out.
If you really insist on going the hard road like this, I would highly recommend 1) Lynn's dvd 2) a 4 side paddle strop from Tony with .05 chromium and 0.25 diamond paste. 3) a really good finishing stone. I use a Kitayama 12000 grit, but I hear the Belgian yellow is just as good if not better.
That's the best advice I can offer... You can do it, but eventually you will want to have one of the honemeisters hone a razor so you can compare.
It looks like we do agree. Thanks for clarifying this.Quote:
Originally Posted by honedright
IMHO 2 things happen when you shave. 1: you cause misalignment of the edge, 2: you will dull the edge to some extent. If even dripping water can excavate a rock than moving a razor against the skin and across hairs will cause wear to some extent. That is why you do have to touch up a razor occasionally as the leather does not remove enough metal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spokeshave
Thanks Kees. I agree with the disctinction. Stropping aims primarily at #1, unless pasted, then it also can remove metal as you mentioned. Messages 27, 22, 13, 10 echo this distinction. Missing this distinction is what can turn a discussion of this type into unecessarily heated hone-stropping debates. We all agree razors need honing (especially old ones) and can be perfected with stropping. Our differences are in techniques, and preferences for how much of each to use and when.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kees
- Dale
I remembered this response to a post I made some time ago and had to revisit it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kees
Lately I've come to the conclusion that it does matter how you move the razor across the leather and the linen. It matters a lot.
Scott
Try Stropping with the TV guide section of the newspaper or some page with a lot of black print on it.
Do it about 90-100 times on each side of the blade and you should pass th HH test.
Archer831