Does it matter when you strop relative to your shave?
Will the razor perform better if it is stropped immediately prior to the shave, or does it shave just as well if you strop the night before (or a week before, for that matter)?
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Does it matter when you strop relative to your shave?
Will the razor perform better if it is stropped immediately prior to the shave, or does it shave just as well if you strop the night before (or a week before, for that matter)?
I think it's really preference, but in the majority, I think we strop prior to shaving - my personal theory is that the edge oxidizes slightly over time, and is thus just slightly less sharper just after stropping.
That said, I strop both before shaving, and then again after (to make sure the bevel is free from moisture).
I've read of some who strop the night before with good results though - give it a try and see what you think - part of the great part of our hobby is our ability to experiment.
Best of luck,
Mark
I've been stropping the night before and getting good shaves from well honed razors.
I trust my stropping skills at 8pm better than at 4:45 am, but tomorrow I'll try the early morning strop. Who knows, maybe Tony will get to sell me another latigo.
I read a bit of documentation on the DOVO website, but I can't remember where. They recommend you strop their razors before shaving. The things I read there (and my background in metallurgy) bring me to the following conclusions:
After you shave, the edge can be slightly frail from use, much like how an edge can be too frail from over honing.
If you leave the edge alone until the next time you shave, you give the steel the ability to "grow" back to it's original shape (the shape it was last honed into). Throughout your shave, the metal changes ever so slightly, on a molecular level, but when left alone, it will try to recover to retain it's original shape. Material science 101 baby, as long as the steel doesn't pass it's yielding stress, it retains it's shape.
Waiting to strop before your next shave gives it time to do so.
Stropping afterwards can remove some metal from the edge, essentially breaking off those frail parts that haven't had a chance to "regrow". Not too much to be worried about, but on a microscopic level it may remove more metal then stropping before your shave.
Honestly, it may not matter much, and most say it doesn't. But I do think you'll get more shaves before your next hone if you strop before instead of after. I'm definitely not an expert on razors, but I do know a lot about metals and the science above makes a lot of sense to me.
I thought one of the main benefits of using a straight razor is having a fresh edge each time you shave. That without having to always change the blade as with disposables.
Thus the purpose for stropping just before each shave.
Scott
I've heard this from lots of others before too.Quote:
Originally Posted by marosell
Do you know anywhere where you can read about this phenomena from a metallurgical standpoint? Because many people pass this info on without actually knowing the scientific facts of it, they've just heard others saying it.
You having a metallurgical background certainly gives much more credibility to what you're saying, I'd love to read about it too.
Scott:
Fresh edge and new edge are two different things. stropping essentially re"freshens" the edge by realigning any parts of the honed edge that are misaligned. While it doesn't "sharpen", the edge will cut smoother. Ideally, you would just let the edge grow to its original form each time you shave. unfortunately that would take forever, as the edge will grow back at a reverse-exponential rate; it will reform a little, then just a little more, then just a little more.
Stropping goes ahead and finishes lining everything up because we can't wait forever until our next shave, with the expense of those frail pieces at the edge. But the longer you wait until you strop, the further back to its original shape the razor will grow, and you will be losing less metal over time.
^jalepeno:
Information on the effects of yielding steel and how it can be stressed to points of return (and no return) can be found in any material science book, but I bet I can find something on wikipedia about it in the sciences/fields area. I'm on my ipodtouch at the moment but I'll find something later and post it.
See the wikipedia pages titled: "Elasticity (Physics)" and "Shape Memory Alloy".
Quote:
Originally Posted by marosell
The SMA article is about three specific alloies, and I doubt anyone has razors made of any of them. The SMA article also says development started in the 1930's which would be too recent for vintage razors (assuming most razors are older than that). Not much in the Elasticity (Physics) article either...
I'm also interested...seeing as I am a physics major. I've heard people mention the razor's shape memory, but never seen any hard info about it.
I don't know what all them big words means:) but I strop before going to bed.Quote:
Originally Posted by marosell
Ernest
A material is said to be elastic if it deforms under stress (e.g., external forces), but then returns to its original shape when the stress is removed.
Elasticity is "shape memory" in its own right. That alloy page talks about a few different kinds of steels so I thought it might be more pertinent then it turned out to be, as it mostly refers to extremely elastic alloys.
Steel can stretch and return to it's original shape. On the types of alloys present in straight razors (which are hardened), forces past the point of yielding will just cause a shatter; you will rarely see deformation (though I guess it would be possible to bend your razor slightly, more easily done at the tang) and you will definitely not see "creep".
It depends on the alloy, but I imagine that razors (due to hardening) don't have a wide elastic range and can be very brittle; with little force they can chip and break. They are at least .6% carbon which gives them some flexibility, but you'll still break it before you deform it much.
I'm telling you stuff I'm sure you know, assuming you were required to take a "mechanics of materials" class in your physics major.
So, however the edge should deform from a shave, it makes sense that it would slowly try to return to it's original shape. How it does it, I'm not an expert there, I didn't dive into molecular mechanics much, but I finally found some stuff straight from DOVO, and I'm sure they have plenty of metallurgists on hand that know about what their talking about.
This information can be found here, but also at plenty of other sites that quote DOVO's information. I don't believe this information was written by native english speakers, but it gets the point across.
Quote:
Wet shavers of the old school know that the facet (blade) "grows", i.e. the microscopically discernible and extremely fine "fin" on the cutting edge changes during the shave but returns to its old position afterwards; it stretches and again becomes extremely fine. Nevertheless, this fine "fin" will still wear away at some stage and a suitable strop should then be bought.
Further down the page, Arthur Boon elaborates. I think he works for DOVO as he seems to know how DOVO does things. He is also not a native english speaker.Quote:
If you own a suitable strop, you should nevertheless take into account that the razor must first "rest" after use. After the razor has been carefully rinsed and dried, it should not be used again for at least 24 - 48 hours because the fine "fin" on the cutting edge straightens up again extremely slowly. If the razor is stropped too soon (or stropped incorrectly by moving it backwards and forwards without turning it over), the "fin" which is necessary for a close shave breaks off.
Quote:
When you shave, the cutting edge gets somewhat misaligned microscopically. It looks like microserrations, bending aside irregularly. If you put the knife away, the cutting edge stretches ('grows') spontaneously within 24 hours. After 3 or 4 shaves it should be aligned a little bit again and therefore you must strop. If you do that correctly, and treat the blade well, you only need to hone once every month or even year, and never send it in fro grinding.... The game is, to postpone honing as long as possible.
Essentially, if you strop right before you shave, you have let the blade rest for as long as possible since your last shave and you will be removing less "burr". This in turn leaves more of your edge intact for longer, and extending the time you have until you need to hone again. Take it with a grain of salt, but it makes sense.Quote:
If you strop the edge immediately after shaving, the misaligned microserrations behave as a burr, which will break off
Ummm, ok...I thought that's basically what I said in my post. No? :shrug:Quote:
Originally Posted by marosell
Scott
sorry, i meant to agree with you and add more to it. i guess it should have read "indeed, a fresh edge and new edge are two different things". and i guess i didn't need to direct it towards you if i was just adding to it :ziplip:
Gottcha :D
Scott
Thanks for that info marosell:D, that level of detail is really helpful, now I can understand it not just accept it as fact.Quote:
Originally Posted by marosell
Could be one of the reasons why some gents can go months without refreshing their edge on a paste.
Makes me think a case study could be done, though it would take a while to see if repeatable results could be done on the same razor.
Also maybe the reason people have weekly rotation for razors?
yep, the more you have in your rotation, the longer you can go without honing any of them!
Don't tell me that, my RAD is bad enough! :DQuote:
Originally Posted by marosell
Dovo faq being banded about again I see :)
I find it hard to understand how anyone can take as gospel the faq on dovos webby when they call 'stropping' "Wetting" and to then go on and say, and I quote: "There is no generally valid rule for the whetting (stropping) of straight razors; in many cases, it is sufficient to draw the razor lightly over the ball of the thumb"
They also imply that you only need to invest in a strop when this Thumb stropping [wetting ] fails to work. Do they not understand that they don't sell shave ready razors LOL, so you will need the strop ahead of thumbing your razor :)
Get this gem of a quote : Changing directions without turning the razor over makes the blade become round (crowned) so that the cutting properties are lost. In this case, only resharpening can help.
So to my mind, any one new to straight razor shaving should keep clear of this faq on Dovos site. It's not worth the thumb you'll loose after reading it or if the gods were on your side, the nice new TM strop you will slash up. I also feel that this faq can never support anyones arguments ;)
PuFF
i have a feeling this was in german and translated to english, there may have been a lot of words or ideas that didn't cross over correctly. either way, it makes sense ;)
IT DOES?? :shrug:Quote:
Originally Posted by marosell
PuFF
Just think, if you had a rotation of 366 razors (you must allow for leap year), you only need hone once every thirty or forty years.Quote:
Originally Posted by mvforza
To answer my own original question regarding the timing of stropping relative to the shave, and whether it made a difference:
I have conducted an extensive scientific study with an "n"=2
Up until now I have been stropping my razors in the evening, and shaving in the morning.
For the past 2 days I stropped immediately prior to the shave. The two razors I used (Dubl Duck Special, reground Sheffield from Josh Earl) had not been honed or pasted since their last shave, and I used the exact same prep, same cream, same brush.
The shaves done immediately after stropping were clearly superior: smoother, closer, no irritation. I'll try it with the other razors in my rotation, and see if this continues to hold true.