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I just bought some high end kitchen knives awhile ago from Global and they only recommend using a Ceramic Steel.
Why don't you see razor blade croud use a Knife steel? (ceramic or steel)
OR
Why don't you see kitchen Knife folks use a Strop? I'm referring to high end forged knives made by Henkels, Wustof, Global, Shun..... none say to use a strop why not?
my guess is because you're not putting a kitchen knife so something as tough as human hair or as sensitve as your face...
and you're not going to constantly slap a razor down on a cutting board or butcher block...
it's like asking why use a regular hammer to nail when you can get it in one hit with a sledge (granted it only takes me 2-3 hits per nail anyway, gradpa nailed that into my head)
if youthink about it, strop:razor as chef's steel:kitchen knife
but the main thing is they're different tools for different jobs
Actually, afik, some chefs use a leather strop on kitchen knives. However, that may be overdoing it for that particular application.
There's nothing keeping you from stropping a kitchen knife but the reason most people don't is you want the proper edge for the job at hand...and at the "proper edge" level for a knife stropping would only provide a minimal improvement so it's kind of a time management issue. If you got a kitchen knife shave ready razor sharp that edge wouldn't last very long.
As for using a steel on a razor...you could do that too but it's more critical with a razor to use the proper amount of pressure when sharpening and it's easier to do that with a stone.
Basically, a leather strop serves the same function for a razor as the steel serves for a knife: restores the edge rather than sharpening it. Just in a more subtle and refined way. A steel would ruin a razor's edge.
I'd never strop a kitchen knife. A tiny bit of microscopic roughness is good on a kitchen knife, as it gives it a bit of bite.
that's basically it.. the micro-serrations (if that's what it is) or superfine roughness helps in slicing.. without it your smooth knife edge would need to be even keener than it otherwise needs to be, and being keener, it should end up blunting faster.. not too keen and not too smooth makes for an edge that works well for a longer time.Quote:
Originally Posted by RetroGrouch
Hmm, some dubious info above i feel.
A ceramic 'steel' is not a steel, it is abrasive therefore it is preforming the same function as a stone or hone, but you are sacrificing angle control, imho. A smooth steel realigns an deformed edge.
Some people use a strop for kitchen knives. A hard backed strop is preferred, because there is no integral angle guide (cf the spine of a straight) great care needs to be taken to avoid rounding off the edge (similar to lifting the spine during stropping a straight). Carpenters also use hardstrops for their cutting implements.
Imo, you should disregard the instructions that came with your globals. You should buy a decent stone for sharpening them, you may not have a 1000 grit for your razors, but you will need it for your knives. For polish stones just use your razor ones, but ensure your knife is scrupulously clean of food debris and oil.
As for toothy edges vs polished, there is one situation where toothy is better, for cutting seatbelts and other plastic ropes. In all other applications a polished sharp edge will perform better and last longer. Try a 8000 grit edge on your knives and get back to me on whether 'toothy' cuts better ;)
For further info on knife sharpening i recommend the keeping sharp section at knife forums Keeping Sharp (Topic list) - Knifeforums.com - Intelligent Discussion for the Knife Enthusiast - Powered by FusionBB
Last year I had the idea that I could take PSA backed honing films and fix them to a 2" wood dowel and hone razors on the cylindrical dowel in a similar fashion to using a chef's steel on a kitchen knife. My theory is that not only would such a cylindrical hone be the world's thinnest hone (basically just honing on one line of the cylinder that would be making contact with the spine and the bevels), it would surpass any other hone in absolutely insuring that even the most warped blade would be honed completely.
It didn't work for me. Two theories here:
1) I didn't do enough passes for each grit to really get a true shaving edge. I stopped short of success.:shrug:
2) Randy Tuttle theororized that the amount of force placed on the single points of contact of the spine and the bevel when they're honed across that line of the cylinder is so much greater than the weight of the blade when it's distributed across more of the spine and bevel when honing on a flat stone; as such, given the delicate nature of the razor edge, especially full and extra hollow razors makes for ineffective honing this way.
This or similar methods of honing is still an unknown to me as to whether it would really equal honing by proven traditional means. I'm skeptical though and have had little interest in really seeing if honing this way works.
If it DID work well, the advantage would be that no razor would be too challenging to hone. Warpage? So what. Other spine or edge flatness anomalies? Big whoop. They'd be of no consequence whatsoever.
Chris L
I think Joe Lerch did some experimenting with razor and steels a couple years ago. I don't remember the exact results, but I don't think there was anything dramatic either way. Maybe someone else can remember specifics.
Jordan
Interesting. Even at the time I doubted that I was the first person to think of it. I'm not THAT innovative!Quote:
Originally Posted by jnich67
Chris L
I use a strop on a knife I use only for trimming meat and fish. I hone it to 8k and give it a round on some paste and then a strop. If you are only doing delicate work it really is the best and it does the least damage to the meat. As for my other knives - I don't use a steel but I tend to keep a 1k edge on them. I am struggling to find a good steel like the ones I used when I worked at a butcher. Most steels I find are really aggressive.
Ernestrome is correct about the ceramic steel being more of an abrasive tool that a "pressure realigning tool" as many chef's steels are. It works like most sharpening stones by removing metal. On a real 'steel" the use may vary. I have seen completely smooth ones than could only work via pressure against the blade like a strop and others with serrations. I don't know enough about steel to judge whether the serrations are working like file teeth to remove metal or only to reduce the contact patch even further and increase effective pressure for realigning. (remember, I'm a "Stropmeister" not a "Steelmeister" <g>).
Chris, I think you may find some vintage travel type strops used the same idea you have experimented with, a steeply curved surface. Quite a few compact paddles had at least one rounded side that provided little contact but would work with any condition blade, smiling to frowning. Not sure how effective they were but they seemed popular.
I think Keith at hand American made a "razor steel" of sorts with his boron glass rod hone device. It was a frosted boron glass rod one would use as a steel. One caution using anything like this on a razor is the amount of pressure applied. We are working with an edge, and a concave grind through much of the body that is paper thin. Too much pressure and one can easily split the edge. In the right hands though it may be a fine tool.
There were the old marble sharpeners that worked in a similar fashion. But here the glass sphere only touched the very edge and on both sides at once to support it which applying pressure and realigning, not abrading it back to sharpness.
Tony
these are the ones tony mentioned here JapaneseKnifeSharpening.com
Handamerican sell (or sold) a smooth metal steel as well as the borosilicate one Tony mentions.Quote:
Originally Posted by nickyspaghetti
Or the spine of another knife can substitute.
Good point there. Take the force applied over the entire length and focus it on, at most, 1mm? You'd probably be applying roughly an order of magnitude more force on the edge? This would assume everything is horizontal. Maybe if you held the hone at an upright angle? Like maybe 10 or 20* from vertical the force per unit might be equivalent to having the entire edge on a stone when horizontal? I think someone who didn't almost fail physics in school could give you the proper angle pretty easilyQuote:
Originally Posted by Chris L
I wouldnt steel a razor. Too harsh and too much margin for error. Plus Chirs highlighted soem important points mainly that at any single point too much pressure is put on a micro-micro-edge.
I do however strop my kitchen knives with CrO2. Works a charm. Gives is the "micro serrartions" it needs plus takes off any harsh edges.
Basically I think a steel is to rude for a dainty razor while the smooth CrO2 softens out the larger and stronger kitchen blades.