Pastes on coticuled edge

Hey all,

So I just have a quick question. Will diamond pastes significantly improve an edge finished on a coticule? I'm wondering because last night I shaved with a razor I finished on my coticule (no pastes), and tonight I shaved with a razor that I had professionally honed (finished on a Maruichi Nakayamai). The one I had done professionally was much smoother. I don't feel like dishing out hundreds for a japanese finishing hone though.... Do you think using pastes (I would use 0.5 diamond, then 0.25 diamond, then maybe chromium oxide to smooth out the edge) would make a big difference on a coticule finished edge? I just want a nice smooth super sharp edge like the one I sent out.....

I'm probably getting a tony miller 4 sided paddle strop with the pastes for Christmas, so I want to know if it's worth looking forward to! Thanks for the help,

Dave

There's the billion dollar question.:)

During my first few honing months, I went through a pasting phase. (Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against it) I used Chromium Oxide on a loom strop, and got fantastic results. Sometimes...
I have never encountered anything else that could so dramatically improve the edges I honed at that time. They were -still are actually- finished on a coticule.
What I didn't like about the CrO, is that the longevity of the effect was not much longer than 2 shaves. (Your mileage my very well vary on that.) Sometimes I could reawaken the edge once by another CrO stropping session.

In the mean time, I have bought a Nakayama. It wasn't the instant epiphany I'd expected it to be.
Slowly I got better at honing. It doesn't really matter so much whether I finish on the Nakayama or the Coticule. Both are smooth. Smoother than my face bothers about. But if a razor is not keen enough, it will pull at the whiskers, provoke me to use more pressure, push me to do too much shaving strokes. And then I end up hurting myself.

Sharpening a razor with hones has a lot to do with chasing keenness. The bevel planes are straight, hence to make a razor keener, you need to remove a thin layer of steel off the entire bevel side. Every time you move up to a finer hone, that becomes exponentially more difficult. It literally means that you can leave keenness behind, and (depending on your hones) never be able to make up for it on the next hone. The final result is defined by how much you left behind. I believe, in that respect, Shaptons are more forgiving, because they are fast and able to some extent to pick up what was left behind. While slow naturals, such a the Coticule with water, the Chinese 12K and Nakayamas, might be more forgiving to an inconsistent stroke, but they don't really compensate for neglected keenness at the previous stage.

Pastes don't have that disadvantage. They can convex the bevel planes, and by doing so, they directly affect the keenness of the very edge. However, I believe that they form the cutting part of the edge by drawing out a bur. Nothing wrong with that, but if you need to do a lot of pasting to achieve good sharpness, that bur is going to be large. And that bur doesn't have the same sturdiness as the original hardened steel. Depending on you beard type, that could be an issue. There's only one way to find out.

Bart.

The simple answer to your question is "yes". I finish on a coticule followed by a 4-sided paddle strop with Dovo red (3-5 micron), Dovo black (1-2 micron), chromium oxide (0.5 micron) and 0.25-micron diamond paste. There is a dramatic increase in smoothness and sharpness with the pastes. If I were you, I would drop the .5 micron diamond because it is the same size, but a rougher shape, than the chromium oxide. After I started using the pastes, I also bought a Chinese 12K but I don't use it because it adds nothing to the effect of the pastes and, because it is very slow, requires more work than I am willing to put into it. I also don't agree that an edge achieved with paste is less durable than an edge achieved with hones. Bart believes that sharpening with pastes forms a cutting edge by drawing out a burr. I understand why he thinks that: honing with the edge forward drags the removed metal towards the spine and leaves it on the hone while honing with the spine forward drags the removed metal towards the edge where it can create a burr. However, I think that the assumption that stropping on paste has the same effect is unjustified. All the microscope photos that I have seen of pasted edges show that the paste has a smoothing effect; none of them show the formation of a burr.

Great posts and a big thank you to the experienced posters who make it easier for us inexperienced
str8 users to better understand the technical aspects of honing,pastes,stropping,etc.Even if the posters don't necessarily agree on the finer points,it helps a great deal to hear your thought processes.

In many instances, I utilize either .5 diamond spray or chromium oxide after coming off either the Escher or the Nakayama stones. I have also done this after coming off the 16K Shapton Glass Stone. Primarily this makes the sharp razor a smoother shaver. This practice has been very consistent with virtually all razor brands that I have honed.

Lynn

Thanks for the great responses!! Very informative and thought out. So it seems that I will benefit from the pastes following the coticule, I just may need to do some experimenting! Whether or not it does create a burr edge as desribed above, I think I will still be conservative in the number of stroked I use on the pastes, and go from there. I think this, as many other issues on straight razors, is a very personal decision, and I will have to find what works best for my face :rolleyes:. I look forward to trying it out and having fun experimenting. Thanks again for all the help,

Dave

I felt like going back to my first post and emphasize on something...

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Originally Posted by Bart

Pastes don't have that disadvantage. They can convex the bevel planes, and by doing so, they directly affect the keenness of the very edge. However, I believe that they form the cutting part of the edge by drawing out a bur. Nothing wrong with that, but if you need to do a lot of pasting to achieve good sharpness, that bur is going to be large. And that bur doesn't have the same sturdiness as the original hardened steel. Depending on you beard type, that could be an issue. There's only one way to find out.

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I believe it's going to make a big difference whether a conservative number of laps is done to smooth out an edge, or some serious work on a pasted hanging strop is done to boost the sharpness. My experience with pastes is only the latter. I usually did 30+ laps on my CrO loom strop, with slack and some pressure. It really could boost the sharpness considerably, but at the cost of the edge durability. One or two very nice smooth shaves. That's all I got.

I have one of those HandAmerican felt strops too, but haven't got around purchasing something to spray on it yet.

My original point was that I think pastes are best used to turn good edges into better edges. And not to turn bad edges into decent edges, as I was trying to do in what I referred to as "my CrO phase".

Best regards.
Nice thread!

Bart.

Bart.

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Originally Posted by StraightRazorDave

I shaved with a razor I finished on my coticule (no pastes), and tonight I shaved with a razor that I had professionally honed (finished on a Maruichi Nakayamai). The one I had done professionally was much smoother. Dave

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Sometimes it's not the arrow but the Indian. :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lynn

In many instances, I utilize either .5 diamond spray or chromium oxide after coming off either the Escher or the Nakayama stones. I have also done this after coming off the 16K Shapton Glass Stone. Primarily this makes the sharp razor a smoother shaver. This practice has been very consistent with virtually all razor brands that I have honed.

Lynn

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Lynn
Are you applying the CrOx and Diamond to felt, leather or both? How about after a Shapton 30K, do you still feel the edge is smoother after CrOx and /or diamond?

Agreed about lots of strokes, Bart. I'm starting to move away from pastes for the same reason. One thing I thought it might be is that, as you say, when stropping w/ pastes, you are drawing metal forward. If doing lots of strokes (30+), it might be starting to deform the edge from a triangular shape to a teardrop shape. Obviously less structural integrity w/ the latter--particularly if you have a Brillo pad for a beard like I do!:D

For me, if I do lots of strokes on CrO after the coticule, I get 3 shaves max before it needs a touchup. I also found (especially on my Wapi for some reason) that if I did more than 2 touchups on just the CrO without going to a hone first, that I would get a wire edge.

For extra sharpness after the coticule, I'm thinking a finer hone is the answer, followed by a few strokes on CrO just to smooth/even things out.

I use a kosher and MASSIVE coticule (kosher at work, MASSIVE at home) then onto metal polish on black card that is stuck to a lapped chisle hone with double sided sticky tape.
I have just finished two razors, Taylors eye witnes 6/8+ round point and a Cornwall Hollow 11/16 slight Oblique point. They both cut every arm hair they come into contact with little resistance, I have quite fine arm hair!! The Cornwall wasn't playing ball, but now it's fine!
I did about 40 laps on the metal polish, after getting the edge a sharp as I could on the coticules.
The edge and spine wear (which is crisp,small and neat) is like a mirror too, in beautiful contrast to the slightly tarnished ancient blades.:D
HHT works on my fine hair over nearly every part of the edges too - I could go further!
I think my honing just needed more work, of the right type.
I've got some Cro2 comming too.
M :Dtrainee honemiester-I wish!

Lots of great advice on this thread.

My two cents: I finish on coticule or escher and frequently follow it with a few laps on a chrome-oxed hanging canvas strop. But for the first shave after any honing session I always skip the chrome ox. The reason is that I want to make sure that I'm getting a great edge off the stones and that the chrome ox is adding smoothness only. If I can't get comfortable BBS after this test shave, I go back to the hone. This also lets me measure my improvement as a honer. In Bart's great phrase, so much of honing with the naturals has to do with "chasing keenness." You'd be surprised how your edges keep improving even when you're way past the apprentice stage.

But the main thing is, I think most of the paste problems people talk about ('teardrop' edges, weak edges) come from depending on paste to do the work of hones. Keep working on getting the absolute most out of your coticule, and if the pastes add something by way of comfort, that's great. Used sparingly, I have not found chrome ox on hanging linen to produce rounded or weak edges.

It may also help prevent rounding that I have a very hard vintage canvas strop, so stiff that it sounds like a little vespa when I'm stropping on it, and I pull it very taut and use little to no pressure when stropping.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Sometimes it's not the arrow but the Indian. :D

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Jimmy, you said 8 and half words, where I needed two posts... :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PA23-250

For extra sharpness after the coticule, I'm thinking a finer hone is the answer, followed by a few strokes on CrO just to smooth/even things out.

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Don't forget that you could also look for extra sharpness before the Coticule. I've been using a Naniwa Chosera 10K lately, and although I can shave right off it, the edge really improves from a number of swipes on a Coticule with water. The outcome is significantly keener than that of a DMT-Blue/slurry-Coticule/water progression.

All the best,
Bart.

I've had the exact same experience as bart. when I started I relied on a pasted paddle, and I had to repasted strop every other shave. Now I'm hooked on coticule and escher and almost never touch pastes. In fact, first time I've touch pastes in months was this week to deal wiht a green lizard that I just haven't been able to get sharp, but I'm so unwilling to go back to my old days of resharpening every two days that I like to just stick to stones now.

I prefer hones over pastes. The edges last longer and truthfully whether I use my Coticule or Escher or natural Japanese stone the razor is plenty sharp and smooth for me. I don't need to go further. Now there are a few razors with very hard steel that do better with a diamond pasted strop and these razors tend to maintain their sharpness much better than using a pasted strop on"normal" razors. Also, pastes and hones sharpen differently and I don't like mixing the two. But that's just me.

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Don't forget that you could also look for extra sharpness before the Coticule.

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On that note, has anyone tried the coticule dry first? I read an old barber manual where the recommended progression was dry-wet-lather. I tried it myself last night after the blue/slurry, but I haven't shaved with it yet.

I think someone a while back (can't find the post) said it was keener but harsher when used dry.

So after reading more of the replies about pastes it seems that they should be used primarliy in edge smoothing, not sharpening. It also seems that using pastes to maintain sharpness also greatly sacrifices the edges durability. So what I plan on doing in the future is to only use the pastes right after the stones. If an edge needs touching up, I'll go to the coticule first to attain the sharpness, then use the pastes just to add a bit of smoothness. But of course I'll play around and find out what works best for me. :D

I actually tried using my coticule tonight with a bit of mineral oil on the surface instead of water. I found a few posts that referred to using an oil on a coticule, and it worked quite well actually! It had a real nice feel to it, very smooth, and I found it very easy to keep the razor flat on the hone with no pressure. I suppose the oil has the same effect as using lather on the hone. It adds just a bit of lubrication, and I find the razor "sticks" the surface more easily, keeping it sucked onto the stone. I plan on using it with oil for future honings, as I use my coticule solely for finishing.

Thank you for everyones input in this thread! Definitely a pleasure reading, and gives me a lot of inspiration to practice honing and stropping more:y.

Happy shaving,

Dave

OIL?!?! Here's a good question: if it does the same thing has honing with lather, then why not use just lather?

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Originally Posted by Ben325e

OIL?!?! Here's a good question: if it does the same thing has honing with lather, then why not use just lather?

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Yeah, I may just use lather in next time. I just wanted to try the oil out, that's all :D. I use mineral oil on my razor when I store then, as well as mixing it with chromium oxide powder to apply to a strop. So I wasn't too concerned about mineral oil. But you're right, if lather works just go with that! I just like to experiment!

Dave