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Can anyone tell me the difference between Red Latigo, Horsehide, Cowhide and Linen vs Cotton.
I noticed lots of choices out there, especially with Tony Miller. I can't seem to find any info anywhere as to what the differences are. Nothing on the wiki, I did a forum search, even the web. Is it all personal preference or is one better than the other. Thanks...Rich
the reds tend to grip the blade more than horse hide, so the horse hide may give more of a polished edge , the russian and latigo grip , honey brown horse slides,
thats about it . if your going to buy your first strop i wouldnt spend a whole lot of money on it till you develop your stroping technique, you may tend to nick the strop a bit in the begining,
hope that helps some
Grottolord
A great place to get good information regarding these is actually the reviews section. Under the Forums tab, scroll all the way down and eventually you'll see a Reviews forum with a strops subsection. Additionally, you can check the strop reviews at Badger and Blade.
I dig the feel of latigo, but I actually prefer strops that don't have tons of draw. I haven't tried tons of different linen sides, but I get great results from the old style canvas strops that are actually canvas tubes flattened out, like a firehose.
I'm decently new to straight shaving myself - only been doing it a few months, but I'm aware that it can be frustrating when looking for a concrete answer on ANYTHING. It seems anytime a question is asked, the answer ends up being "Well, it depends", or "It's a matter of personal preference...." I hated going on dates with girls who, when asked "Would you rather do A or B?", would respond with "Whatever" or "It doesn't matter", and I tend to like it when people are more opinionated, so here's my answer:
A: Latigo leather is better - it's typically cheaper, and works well on anything. Some people don't like stropping 4/8 full hollows on Horsehide.
B: Old Canvas.
Ive got several vintage strops, all of them are veterans , all of them of red russian leather, all of them battle scarred, all of them work flawlessly! They aint pretty, but there isnt anything better!
I smiled at your response that I paraphrased here. I can understand it because it can be frustrating; I've been there and still find myself wanting a simple straightforward answer on something. But, you already know the reason there are 50 different answers to most single questions here. The great thing about all this stuff is that there really are many different ways to accomplish the same things and people's preferences do vary.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben325e
Example right here!!: I don't like red latigo for stropping at all; way too much draw for me to the point where I find it annoying and irritating. Horsehide is my top preference hands down, then cowhide. I'd say that's a strong opinion, but I have no desire, nor would I ever say someone else shouldn't try or use latigo. Many people love it, and if it works for them, I'm honestly happy for em.
Occasionally some will meander on SRP and state that their way of doing something is the ONLY best way of doing it and everyone else who does that thing differently is wrong. They seem to either change their minds, go away or get banned.;) This pastime, hobby, skill or whatever else you want to call it is interesting and captivating to me for the very reason that there are MANY ways to hone, shave, lather, strop, restore, etc.
Chris L
I've got a bunch of vintage strops and they are all real good. All but one is "shell" which is horsehide and was what it seems most barbers used back in the old days. One, a Red Imp, appears to be cowhide and is very good also. I love the linens on the vintage strops if you can find one that isn't lumpy.
The strop I use most often is a Tony Miller 2 1/2 latigo/horse with one of his linens added. Like Chris I find the latigo has almost too much draw and I really like the horse. I do 50 on the linen and then 25 on each, first the latigo and then the horse. I recommend Tony's strops without reservation. They are just as good as it gets. The vintage strops are fine and I use them once in awhile but I am one of those goofy collectors so I mainly keep them because I think they are cool.
Chris,
Thanks for your response! You're right; I'm glad that there's so many different ways to do things here, and I typically don't place much value on anything people say who have the "One way and one way only" attitude. That said, most people do have a preference and I dig when people state theirs. It could go like this:
Q: What is the best type of strop?
A: It depends, it's all personal preference.
Or it could go like you responded:
Q: What is the best type of strop?
A: It depends, it's all personal preference, but I like the horsehide. The latigo has way too much draw for me and isn't fun to use.
That's a big difference, and it was that kind of answer that was helpful to me as a total noob. That's all I meant.
[/thread hijack]
Okay, my thoughts <g>
Most people expect a strop to have draw and many find it easier to control their movements if the strop is giving feedback. In this case a higher draw strop would be the choice and Red Latigo typically has plenty of draw.
Horsehide tends to have far less draw ranging from light to almost none. This is fine if you are experienced at stropping but many find they need some feedback from the strop.
I myself favor horsehide from the traditional standpoint but will often start on Latigo and finish on the Horsehide.
For beginners and those with no preference I always suggest Latigo as it is the least expensive, is less prone to cupping than most leather and 99% of the time will do the same job as Horsehide. If looking at commercial strops for heavy draw buy an Illinois 827, for less but the Illinois 127. (I myself would buy a 2 1/2" Illinois 361 or my "Original" as I like traditional designs but the market demands 3" "fancy" strops)
The same opinions apply to pastes and you will find widely differing suggestions. Most like chromium oxide as it has a smoother crystal shape and leaves more rounded, face friendly micro-scratches in the blade. Some say diamond is too sharp and angular leaving a harsh edge. of course many here shave right off of a Norton 8K stone which negates all the paste debates as that edge is no where near as smooth as a diamond or chromium edge.
My thoughts are start with diamond, finish with chromium if you want the smoothest edge for the best shave. I myself though just don't like the chromium as it is messy to apply and even with a light coat tends to rub off. I hate mess and typically only use diamond myself.
What is best for one may not be best for all. And what is "best" may still not be what you use as "works just fine" is good enough. Use what you have now until you master it and then move on and experiemnt to see if that can be imporoved upon. I think many newbies forget that there is a learning curve and that none of the tools described are magic and none are going to perform until you do your homework. Many rush from one "ultimate" tool to the next looking for the quick fix.
Our grandfathers likely had a razor, a narrow horse or cowhide strop and a basic barbers hone. A few had an old loom or paddle strop with red and black paste as their "ultimate" tool. No Nortons, no Shaptons, no Latigo, no Diamond pastes and none of them died from too many whiskers or too much stubble <g>. For them shaving was a task, not a hobby.
Tony
Damn great read Tony !!!
Thank you for that ... archiving that in my personal folder right now :tu
Makes me wana get a 3" Latigo right now !!!
What I find interesting is that the vintage Horsehide strops that I own all have a definite draw while the newer horsehides are definitely slicker with less draw. They also seem to be a little thinner material than the newer ones. One thing for certain, is that I am used to a specific feeling or feedback when I strop and as Tony indicated each of us has our own expectation here. This is something a new person develops over time and use.
Lynn
Thanks to all for your replies, especially "The big gun" Tony.....
Lynn,
I have found the same thing. The old ones have a different feel to them. Not sure if they did something special in the tanning or prep or it is simply they have more years on them and have worn in to a superior surface.
There is nothing like the old days!
Tony
After almost 25 years (on and off) of Str8 shaving, I must admit, the last year has been the best since I really concentrated on honing- I added 2 things to my arsenal to keeps razors ready to shave. 1: Shapton Glass hones 2: TONY MILLER Strop.
I like the red latigo-lots of draw and lots of feedback. There was a time I used to think the HHT was a parlor trick. NOT NOW: Hit them on the hones and finish on my Latigo strop and I am GOOD TO GO!:w
Horsehide is OK- Latigo is my favorite.
Or And 3" Horsehide!Quote:
Originally Posted by Earthdawn
So far, I prefer a 1 1/2" wide Latigo hanger. Second choice is cowhide in the form of an old 1 3/16" Torrey loom that originally had black paste on one side. Both have a nice draw to them.
I haven't tried russian or horsehide yet. Now I have good reason to make a longer Christmas list! :)
I have both a smooth as glass Japanese Kintaka horsehide strop and two latigo strops (one is an Apprentice strop, the other a 3" Artisan with smooth canvas).
Although I found the horsehide to be an interesting finish, and the leather is without a doubt beautiful and supple, I did not care for the absolute zero draw the thing had. I say "had" because just the other day I took some 600grit to that thing and now it has just a whisper of draw, not as much as my latigos, but enough to make it satisfying....
That said, I also found that the latigo helped to actually put a better edge on my razors. I stropped up a razor on the smooth pre-sanding horsehide and tried the HHT--results were so-so. I then went to the latigo and violla! hanging hairs were melted away.
So, for me, it seems that not only is the latigo my preference in terms of feel, but also in terms of performance.
YMMV, TGIF, ETC, IOU, and all that stuff;)
Question- does anyone sand their horse hide strops for a little more draw? feeling the itch to buy a new strop, I made my own, cow hide 4" X 20 on flat wood, worked for me so far, but thinking I should progress from ghetto after joining SRP..:cry:
I WAS ALL SET! I was ready to pull the trigger on one of Tony's horsehides. Really, I was. Now I'm back to thinking Latigo/Linen is the way to go. Well, if nothing else, it means I get to keep my money for a few more days!
Edit: I see the Latigo is only available with Cotton. I had heard the slightly coarser Linen was a nice mid-step between CrOx and the leather. Does cotton occupy this same territory?
The linen is not really coarser, it is said to have a slight abrasive quality by some and to make no difference by others. Both are very smooth weaves, the cotton is firm and smooth, the linen limp and smooth. My older strops have a semi-limp, very coarse weave cotton.
I consider the texture of the weave to determine coarse or smooth. The abrasive qualities would be based on the nature of the fibers themselves.
As for horse and /or linen being better, well, that is subject to debate. I always explain to people in this case more expensive does not mean better, it simply means the raw material and/or labor to fabricate it is more expensive. The linen is much pricier per foot to purchase and has lots of little "nibs" in the weave, hence far more waste when cutting from the roll. At times I may discard nearly as much as I can use, therby doubling my "cost". Horsehide is much the same. A single "butt" may yield 3 or 4 pieces from my 2" strops, or maybe a single 2 1/2" piece, and one out of every three or four pieces may be completely unusable. My rule of thumb (and pricing) is one good strop per butt and I am on track with costs/pricing. On Latigo I get a 50% to 60% yield per hide if all goes well. If I get a bad hide, maybe one out of four it is cheaper to make practice strops from it than pay to send it back. Strop making is far more than a square foot of leather costs $ X.XX and will make one strop so a strop should cost $ x.xx plus a half hour of labor <g>.
Tony
I had the same dilemma between latigo and horse so I went with a horse/latigo strop and I am glad that I did. Best of both worlds. I later got a linen from Tony and added it to the strop.Quote:
Originally Posted by smokelaw1
I like the feel of the horse better then the latigo but I use both. First linen, then latigo and finish with the horse. The latigo has so much draw that I felt I had to be really careful when I am stropping. I am used to it now so it is pretty routine but when I first got it I went slow on the latigo.
I sanded mine with some 600grit. A subtle difference, but I enjoy the feel much more now!Quote:
Originally Posted by thewap
I did a run of buffed horsehide last summer and it gave them a nice velvety feel. I can't say it increases the effectiveness but if one needs the feeling of draw it is a step in that direction. It is a dusty process though and one I prefer to do outside the shop in nice weather.............nothing I'll see in Baltimore the next few months!
Every strop will feel a bit different. Leather is an organic material and each hide responds differently to tanning and each tannery uses their own unique methods. Even hides from the same place vary considerably. This is why I never pre-sell my products unless I have all the component cut and prepped as I cannot be sure the shipment of hides coming the next day will even be usable. What hide is used, what techniques are used to "break it in" during manufacture, etc..all effect how it will feel and how it will lay. This is one of the steps I have never been able pass on to any of my help. They go through the steps but not being strop users they just don't know when they have it right or not.
Personal tastes have alot to do with it as well. Some like a thicker, stiffer strop, others soft and pliable. Making it look pretty is the easy part, making it work is tougher.
Now for the new rising bunch of razor makers out there.....I can't even imagine the headaches involved in getting a consistant product with a reasonable amount of effort!
Tony