ZIP, ZIP, ZIP!
Canvas side
Swish, swish, swish
Horsehide
:D
YouTube - Stropping
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ZIP, ZIP, ZIP!
Canvas side
Swish, swish, swish
Horsehide
:D
YouTube - Stropping
Good vid, Seraphim!
Ya know, I always like your use of onamotapoeia in your posts. It makes them more fun. :)
Was this filmed on location in Japan? :p
Jordan
Thanks man.
for keeping the towel on under your robe
Cool video thanks. Brings to mind when I was over at forum member The Topher's house and he watched me strop a razor. I had been doing it awhile and like you I could go pretty fast. He told me that I shouldn't be turning my wrist to flip the blade but rather should use my thumb. Later I read this in the barber manual excerpt on honing and stropping found in the SRP help files here.
"The razor is held with the thumb on top of the shank and rolled in the hand without moving the wrist. This not only makes for equal pressure on both strokes, but also makes the act more graceful and easy."
So I guess that turning the wrist as opposed to using the thumb with a stiff wrist might cause a variation in pressure ? I know that when I worked on changing from turning my wrist to flipping with my thumb it wasn't graceful or easy at first. :D So that is the way I am doing it now. I am curious if anyone else has an opinion on there being a "right" way or is one as good as the other ?
thank you for that!:)
On a suggestion from AFDavis a long time ago, I practiced the stationary wrist and flip the tang with thumb and finger as illustrated and described in the old barber manual excerpts that used to be in the archive here but I think are gone now. I printed out the page and taped it on my bathroom wall. I don't know if there is a right or wrong as long as it works.
Liked your vid, Saraphim. Using the technique I use, I can't go as fast as you do. I may have to try your method for fun.:hmmm:
Chris L
I recently posted a thread on the Basic Honing forum regarding the fact that I can hone a razor to a great edge but 10 days to 2 weeks later I'm hitting the hones again, or at least the coticule for a touch up. The consensus of many of the replies was that, as I can get a sharp and smooth edge off of the stones, it must be my honing technique that causes my edge to suffer.
I've done everything I can read about or think of regarding proper honing including the "less is better" mantra with regards to pressure. So, it really got my attention when I watched Seraphim's video and saw how the strop bowed under the pressure of the razor as he stropped. Not that he was applying too much pressure but that he was using a lot more than I do. When I strop, I keep a taut strop and use a light touch so that the strop does not bow in the least.
Does the "less is better" mantra not apply to stropping? Could I be using too little pressure?:shrug: Of all the aspects of straight shaving, this has frustrated me more than anything.:mad:
I think it was AFDavis who said something about the hones are for cutting your whiskers, and the strop is for the comfort of your face, or words to that effect. His actual quote is far more eloquent. Anyway, he (and alot of the other gurus around this place) have said that stropping (as long as it's done correctly) can not be over emphasized, or done too much. I also think you're supposed to only apply enough pressure to get the "draw" feeling to whatever surface you are using.
Edit: It has also frustrated me more than the shaving part, too. I would really recommend to anyone thinking of getting their first strop... skip the paddle strop and get a real hanging strop. It'll do a better job while taking less time to do it.
you think you could slow it down to say 1/3 time so I can see what you're actually doing?
Why was the razor wiped on the robe before changing to leather? Paste on the canvas? :thinking:
Interesting that you would say this. I posted a similar thread to the basic honing forum a while back, asking for help with poor edge longevity. I got a number of helpful replies about honing. But it never occurred to me that my stropping was at fault. If somebody had told me, I would not have believed them anyway. But after trying a number of honing suggestions, I started really asking questions about my stropping, as that was the only factor left.
Then I saw a thread from a few weeks ago about stropping speed affecting edge quality (all other things being equal). If the basic stropping stroke is sound, the upshot was that a slow stroke (one every 3 to 5 seconds) didn't maintain an edge as well as a faster stroke (one every 1 or 2 seconds). The test results from deliberate slow stropping were identical to what I was experiencing - a good edge dropping in quality every day, being unshaveable after about 4 or 5 days.
I figured out I have been stropping incorrectly for months. I don't roll my wrist or roll the shank between my thumb and forefinger - I've been doing one half-stroke, changing my grip after flipping the razor, and then finishing the stroke. This lead to inconsistency and slooow speed. Even feeling good draw, I got lousy results. I couldn't change my grip on the shank using my method without lifting the razor off the strop to fumble with it.
So, I tried the flip-the-shank-between-thumb-and-finger method, slowly. It felt completely awkward and unnatural. I chewed up my practice strop badly, and even got a cut or two in on my beloved TM Latigo. But after two days of trying, I could do it. I could do it correctly, and noticeably faster than before. In fact, it only feels right doing it fast and light - when I go slow or lose my quick rhythm is when I bite my strop! Weird. If I lose my best grip on the shank - I stop and lift immediately. I continue after re-adjusting to get the best grip. That stopped the razor biting the strop cold.
I have a world of improving to do, but the fact is that I've been shaving off the same razor for a week, with effectively zero deterioration in the edge. It's like it just came off the hone, every morning. Whatever I'm doing differently now, it's more right than what I was doing before, and I'll continue do it. I was going nuts before the switch in stropping method. I strop the heck out of my razor now, at least twice as many strokes as before in a similar span of time.
Like you, when I saw videos of experienced stroppers like Seraphim stropping, I used to think "wow, he sure seems to be using more pressure than I use. Hmmmm." Since I switched to the fast-flip method, I now see the same thing when I do it - but I've figured out it's not pressure on the *edge*, it's incidental pressure on the *spine* due to the quick flip and the constant contact of the razor with the strop. The actual stroke is very light, but the speed of the flip and the pressure of the contact of the spine during the flip makes the strop jump around a bit more. The grip on the shank is actually pretty tight, but the stroke itself is light.
I hope this long explanation makes sense, and I hope I'm doing it right. It's working for me, anyway.
Neat thread. Sounds like I'm not beating my head against a wall as much as I thought I was . . .:) Just the other day I was reviewing the words used in several sources to describe stropping pressure. None of them ever suggest "feather light" although some do say "only enough" (to feel a draw). After checking the Barber's Manual currently in the "Help Files" I noticed it said "Normal" pressure. :gaah: NORMAL? :shrug:
My stropping is nothing like that, yet produces a pretty similar effect on the razor and strop. I find a little deflection actually helps. I also find a focus on using a feather light touch is overrated. Yet, you can really screw up an edge and make it seem dull if you strop poorly.
This fellow isn't using "feather light" pressure. I bet he gets good results, too. In the slow motion sequence, his technique seems close to perfect. Also noteworthy is that his strop grip and body position relative to the strop closely matches Seraphim's.
YouTube - Razor Strop
My stropping improved after I started using enough (increased) pressure to feel what the razor was doing... Based on that, I have to agree that feather light is highly overrated. Technique being more important.
Great video and, wow, did you see how scary close the razor came to his hand?:eek:
Hence, the new title.
In case you didn't time it, you're stropping at 90 laps a minute. I do just under 60 a minute but I'm taking longer strokes (longer strop?). Not that faster or slower is better. I think that once people get past the very slow and deliberate stage they hit a natural rythm where you feel most comfortable and it requires the least amount of concentration.
Yea, you've got to hit the right rythm. I usually do around 60 a minute too. No reason at all to go 90, but it works well for him. I think that the barber vid has way too much deflection for me, though he has that neat wave we talked about where the strop almost lifts with the blade.
I think a lot of guys change the way they strop after the first few months, and consequently, I wonder how many newbies get poor shaves just based on not understanding the purpose or dynamics of stropping.
*raises hand* Me.
Before my SRP stropping education, I thought that a few passes down a small piece of leather were all that was really necessary, as I wasn't doing anything more than lightly polishing the blade. Pfffft.. yeah, right.
I now understand why my shave quality degrades so rapidly; guys that are trying to get good stropping results using nothing more than a paddle strop are trying to put out a volcano with an eye dropper. It has become readily apparent that an untreated (by that I mean no abrasive pastes. It should be properly treated for correct "draw"), small leather paddle strop is not really meant to be one's only stropping solution. Maybe a hold-over for a few day's on the road, but certainly not for day to day use.
Using just the paddle strop, I spend at least fifteen minutes per day stropping to get half way decent results.
I'm sure you were probably thinking more along the lines of new guys that get themselves proper strops from the beginning, AFDavis, but I thought I'd plug my 2 cents worth in here in case there's a newb out there trying to cut a budget like I was and go skimpy on the strop.
Yes, it's possible to get good results on a small paddle strop, you just have to pack a lunch to do it.
I think you need to differentiate the pressure on the spine and on the razor edge.
How much pressure?
The pressure on the spine needs to tension the leather strop.
The pressure on the following edge needs to be enough to brush the leather nap smoothly.
So depending on how tightly you hold the strop, the more or less spine pressure will be needed. The blade is then effectively held at an angle that lets the edge brush the leather nap. As you go through the stropping, it's actually best to lighten the brushing action. Same as with honing.
You know when you have it stropping correctly, not by the sound particularly, but by watching the nap on the leather change shade as the edge brushes the nap. Its a bit like watching the water movement on a hone.
Watch the nap reflection on the strop as the razor edge passes over it.
I think that horse hide is the best strop because the nap is the finest. Its again a bit like the grit on a hone. The blade passes more quickly over a finer strop and some do not like the lack of resistance. They prefer to feel a pull. Cow hide does this better than horse hide, but it is not as fine a nap. Finally a really rough nap is on the canvas/cotton or linen which does something to the edge, but to be honest, I d'ont know what it is. I think it just cleans any oxidation off the blade before hitting the leather and thereby stops the leather getting dirty as quickly.
You can clearly see the nap changing shade on Seraphim's superb horse hide strop in his excellent video.
It took me a few weeks of showing love to my strop before it began to drag nicely with the lightest touch. I used Lynn's excellent advice about smoothing the strop with my palms every day. My strop is Illinois 835 cow hide.
Watch the slow motion downstroke in the barbershop video at 21 thru 24 seconds. Doesn't it look like the spine is lifted? That would be a disaster for me, but somehow this guy seems to know what he's doing. :eek:
I disagree that Liam's technique is perfect. In slow-mo, you can clearly see that on his "Away" stroke he is lifting the spine considereably!
On my vid, I didn't do any slow-mo, so you guys couldn't critique me!:p
It should be noted that this strop was modified for "extra nap" buy rubbing it with 600 grit sandpaper. I couldn't get the groove with the ultrasmooth horsehide with zero draw. By buffing it (a tip of the hat to Mr. Miller), it now has appreciable draw, although nowhere near the realm of the latigo strops.
Also, to be able to see the nap change you have to choose to watch the vid in high definition.
Very nice ! Kinda scary too, I'm glad you didn't have anyone tied up in the backround.....:rofl2:
Just kidding my friend, nice technique