I came across this link on Coupe Chou Club: THK DIAMOND TOOLS
Members there are happy with communication and quality.
Just wanted to share. I am not that much into pastes so can't tell you if they are any good.
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I came across this link on Coupe Chou Club: THK DIAMOND TOOLS
Members there are happy with communication and quality.
Just wanted to share. I am not that much into pastes so can't tell you if they are any good.
Damn. I only want one of them...but $30 shipped is really cheap. Too cheap, to be honest...
Jim, I'll buy them all and sell the one you want to you for a tenner :D
Thanks Kees. I'll be the guinea pig. I ordered them. Although I really have not liked the consistency of the DMT oil based pastes I have in 1, 3 & 5 micron, if this is legit, I'm on my way to try stropping with pastes from start to finish. The DMT oil based pastes are in a thick grease base and do not spread easily. I should try disolving them in some alcohol or something, maybe that would help.
I would assume all 12 of these pastes would be monocrystaline. Ideally I would like to try mono grits to let's say 8k to 10k range and then finish with polycrystaline diamond. My unsupported and untested (validity = zero, I know)theory is that high grit diamond pastes feel "harsh" to most people because they're mono instead of poly. The poly is not as "shard" like and cuts smoother.
Thanks again, Kees!
Chris L
Hi Chris,
Interesting experiment. I wouldn't use alcohol but rather petroleum-based solvent (similia similibus solvuntur). Alcholol is both water and petroleum soluble. IME it does not mix as well with every oily substance.
Please let us know the results.
I have a Dutch barbers' manual from 1910 that says that French razors were sharpened using only pasted wood and a leather strop. According to its authors any wood without knots can be used. I presume the bevel was set by the manufacturer.
Hey Chris, have you ever tried these yet?
I'm interested, and figure several others might be also... :beer1:
If they're really great, please don't everyone order them all at once and cause the price to double. :rant:
Yes, I received the 12 pastes. It took less than two weeks from the day I ordered until the day I received which, from Hong Kong to the USA is fine with me. They were packaged well.
Attachment 31403
Attachment 31404
All the colors of the rainbow or something like that; each paste, thankfully is colored differently. Of course, when applied to a substrate, the color disappears and they all look the same.
The reason I have not posted sooner on any progress with this is because:
- Although I'm not the most scientific or meticulous person, I'm in the beginning stages of testing not only these pastes, more importantly, I'm testing the technique of using pastes like this to backhone a razor from bevel set to shave ready.
- I have tested a range of razor grinds from wedge, half hollow and full hollow.
- I have only tested up to approx 1k grit starting with the very aggressive sounding 300 grit equivalent (40 micron) for bevel setting some very dull vintage razors.
- The key with this method and using pastes in general is to work with a suitable substrate. In this experiment I have thus far used the following:
- Engineered wood MDF type paddles graciously made for me for this experiment by Bruce at no charge; thanks again, Bruce!:) I say "MDF" type paddles because Bruce had a name for this type of stuff and it wasn't MDF. It's like a 3/4" thick MDF only a bit more solid IMO.
- Corian
- Balsa glued to Corian.
- 1/4" float glass beveled at the edges and cut in widths from 3" wide, 2 1/2" wide, and 1 1/2" wide all by 12" long.
- The paste itself is thick when you push it out of the plastic syringes. It smells to me like it's mixed in some sort of bearing grease. It has a fairly strong oil/grease industrial smell. I would consider the smell less than pleasant but not offensive.
- I mixed the paste with some Norton Honing Oil to thin it out. Norton Honing Oil is like a high grade thin mineral oil.
- The oil based mixture caused a straight edge flat (no light shining through where the straight edge met the paddles) surface of the paddles to become convex which was unfortunate.
- So far, there's a problem which is exhibited with each of the razors I've used when using the coarse bevel setting grits: Burrs like you'd never dream of. Call is massive macro-chipping, etc. It's bad.
- The substrates that caused this issue and were the worst offenders in decending order were: glass, corian, MDF type paddles then balsa. I think the hard surfaces with no give and no significant imbedding friendly properties cause the abrasive to just shred the edges. I'll try to get some pictures on my stereo mic to show what I'm talking about.
I want to try 3" wide basswood hobby strips mounted on the paddles then lapped flat prior to applying the oil thinned pastes. The grain will raise, but there should be enough "give" in the basswood to compensate by allowing for some cushion.
The balsa on the coarser grits for setting bevels has seemed to be too soft.
So.......that's where things are at the moment. Given the price, if others feel the desire to experiment, I say go for it and we can bounce ideas off each other. At this point though, I can't recommend utilizing this whole range of pastes in a complete honing method. I'm still exploring as you can see.
Chris L
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisL
I appreciate your effort on this!
Christopher:
The MDF type material surface changed after the oil thinned oil based paste was applied. Convex/raised in the center.
I have 1/4" thick x 36" long x 3" wide strips of basswood that I purchased along with balsa of the same dimensions from a hobby store for less than $3 per strip. You're right, I'm thinking the basswood will be a happy medium from the hard glass, corian and MDF type surfaces to the soft balsa. Balsa is my hands down preferred substrate for chrome ox even more than leather, but for diamond and doing any bevel work, I think it's simply too soft and the diamonds are getting lost in the balsa.
I have used other woods for honing with diamond pastes (DMT brand diamond pastes up to this point which are also grease based). Hard Maple blocks which when lapped and beveled are so hard I have been able, with care to hone edge leading on them like a hone. Also what I think is a mahogany. I have not tried the maple yet with these Hong Kong pastes, but that may be something I try. The goal will be to find a substrate which will bed the diamonds but not so soft that the diamonds will driven down into the substrate like a nail in wood ending up flush with the surface.
Chris L
other woods
I think (from a purely theorethical point of view) that the surprisingly great ocurrence of burrs is due to the fact that the abrasive particles are totally loose (just like a coticule stone cuts a lot more if you hub it with another stone to loose it's garnets) maybe using the coarser grits in leather would embed the diamonds on the honing surface, resulting in less aggressive cuting.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisL
Waiting for my pastes to arrive from hong kong to try this theory.
I was wondering why the heavier grit would be chipping the blade.
I think since the MDF reacts too readily to any kind of liquid by curling up or swelling, so I think it'll have to be counted out (at least for my experiments)...
With the glass and corian, I think that the grit is simply sitting on top and not embedding deeply enough to prevent the blade from riding on some of the grit like rollers, and when it gets to a point that the amount of grit is not even along the edge, it simply snaps off the part of the edge that is being held up by the grit.....kind of like laying a pencil on the table and setting another on top like a see saw, and pressing down on both ends until it breaks.....with our fragile edges, it wouldn't take much.
For any of the harder woods, I think you might be able to force the grit to embed by using the glass bottle on it like you would a hanging strop. This would do a better job of helping to even up the coat of grit and provide you with a more uniform grit height.....although it might also force the grit in too far to be useful!
It sounds like a good enough idea to me, that I will try it in a couple weeks when I get my pastes from HK....unless someone beats me to it, and saves me the trouble.
My 1901 barbers' manual recommends palm tree wood or elder for applying pastes.
For those following this post, to date, I've found the main challenge in my experiments with this to be finding a complimentary substrate which would allow for embedding of the diamonds; substrates previously mentioned that do not allow for any embedding (e.g. glass) resulted in edge damage to various razors while balsa was too soft for bevel setting.
I grabbed a scrap of 2x2 pine from my scrap pile and cut a length about 10" long. For our international members, a "2x2" is a board used in construction and is most commonly found in lengths of 8 feet in any building supply store for about one U.S. dollar. Much like the weight reference to coffee in our country where a "pound" of coffee has dwindled down to around 12 ounces, a "2x2" is now 1 1/2" x 1 1/2 inches in actual dimension. I lapped one surface using 220 grit open coat sandpaper on top of my Woodcraft granite surface plate.
I selected a $10 "WEDGE" razor square point stamped with the name of a barber supply company from Mpls, MN. This WEDGE (which is really what I would consider a 1/2 hollow) has a blade width of 7/16". It's a narrow razor with a standard blade length. This vintage razor, as purchased had an intermittently and only moderately sharp edge. Some areas did cut a few arm hairs while making contact with my arm. I decided then to go to the 7 micron diamond paste (approx 2k grit) to set the bevel, backhoning all the way of course. This razor was a "problem" razor in the sense that one side was flat, the other side had what I call a significant "horizontal cave curvature" (when flat on the wood, the heel and the toe very obviously did not make contact. The 1 1/2" wide "hone" was perfect for this). There was fairly extensive toe wear or "tapered toe" as I call it on that problem side as well. I was pleasantly surprised after several hundred passes with little to no pressure that the bevel was set nicely and the few micro-nicks in the edge were gone. I nice straight edge.
I then went to 3.5 micron (approx 4k) and refined that bevel; this time on a piece of 1/2" birch plywood which I also lapped on the surface plate.. Still.....a nice straight edge with no chipping. Approx 75 passes, again with little to no pressure. The surface of the 7 micron pasted 2x2 and the 3.5 mic pasted birch plywood I pasted were BLACK when I was done. Yup, diamonds cut. After 25 passes on a homemade horsehide paddle strop to prep for a good arm hair test, it passed very nicely. It shaved arm hair easily at skin level and took care of many above skin level.
I then went to 1.5 micron This would be approx 9k grit. I did something different here; I took a piece of the 1 1/2" wide x 12" long x 1/4" thick glass and tightly wrapped one sheet of heavily inked newspaper over it, taping it down firmly. I rubbed the honing oil thinned 1.5 micron diamond paste directly onto the newspaper soaking the newspaper with the mixture and rubbing it in. I don't recall the number of passes but I would estimate around 75 again. Quick strop on paddle strop. Very nice edge. Beautiful under magnification at 40x. Also, no errant large scratches/gouges putting my mind at ease that this paste is of uniform quality without damaging larger unwanted diamond. The edge was so nice in shaving arm hairs above skin level, that I decided to do the following:
I did not proceed to 1 mic and .5 mic diamond followed by chrome ox, cerium oxide, etc. Instead, I took another piece of glass, the same size as above and wrapped one layer of heavily inked newspaper and taped down tightly. I wanted to just "knock down" the diamond edge with plain newspaper. I've always loved newspaper for polishing edges and just can't say enough about it. I did 100 passes on the plain newspaper, then 75 passes on the horsehide paddle strop. Then I could not wait for a test shave. I lathered up at about 11:30 pm last night.
:beer1: Really, one of the most comfortable and smoothest shaves I've had in a long time. The edge was NOT harsh and to me had surprisingly (or not) similarities to an edge I'd hone off of a coticule or thuringian. Sharp, whisker catcher with virtually no resistance and only minor expected resistance on my chin area. The sharpness and comfort was the same from the first pass to the last. Actually the smoothest I've shaved my chin area in recent memory. I asked my wife to feel my face after I was done. She knows nothing about BBS terminology and she remarked "wow, it feels like our son's ass." (he's 4 months).:)
The research continues. Since this was of course, only one razor. Even so, one razor that was backhoned 100% from start to finish.
A note or two: At all three grits, the 7 mic, 3.5 mic and 1.5 mic, I did notice a wire edge was produced during the sessions on each grit level. Those that have been honing awhile know that it really is easy as pie to spot a wire edge when viewing a clean edge under a bright incandecent light. I don't need magnification to do that. It's the smallest band of white light seen at the very edge of the edge when you have one. No big deal. When I'd see the wire/burr I would reduce passes to no more than five, then I'd check the edge without, then with magnification. Every time on each grit, after spotting one and checking frequently, I would hone just until the burr was completely gone. Not a big deal. The enjoyable, comfortable and irritation free shave is testament to that.
Chris L
Impressive results, Chris! I don't understand the quote underneath. As I read it it means you continue honing on the same grit size when you see a wire edge. Doesn't it get worse that way?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisL
Randy asked the same thing and assumed at the point of a wire edge that I would drop down to the lower grit. I did not. Additional passes with frequent inspections revealed that those passes on the same grit level were sufficient to dissolve the burr evenly as it were.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kees
Chris L
The H. Birks wedge I´ve bought from ebay has arrived. It´s the ideal candidate for honing with those diamond pastes (I´ve bought them too). Just waiting for them to arrive to start sharpening!
I´ll post my impressions here too!
I´ve already made 5 glass bench hones. In one of them I´ve glued leather, to use as a leather hone charged with cromox, and the other 4 I´m still figuring out what to use (maybe newspaper, perhaps some surgical tape like micropore).
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisL
Cool. So we have multiple test results, if that wedge is in serious need of bevel setting/very dull, try some thinned out 28 mic or 20 mic first straight on glass (backhoning) and see if the edge seems to be too thrashed after the bevel is set. "Macro-chipping" which I would define as not able to be seen clearly with the unaided eye, but would be seen as extremely serrated large peaks and valleys on the edge under 40x magnification. I'm not talking about an edge at that grit range having an even "tooth" to it. I'm kicking myself for not taking pictures when I started on some very dull razors using the 40 micron (300 grit range) on glass, but I don't even want to go back there.Quote:
Originally Posted by cegadede
I worked on a Tonsorial Gem full hollow square point tonight that had a rough edge. There were some chips that needed to be honed out and a few small dings or wavy spots under magnification. So far, I would not say that backhoning from start to finish would a good way to go if a razor has chips which must be honed out. I believe it could be done, but I think the amount of time it would take would be much much much longer than edge leading. After starting to backhone using 20 micron diamond paste (approx 1k grit range) on the substrate I've found most effective to date for this method, a lapped 2x2 pine board section, I did revert to honing out the chips/waves and setting the bevel using my customized half width Shapton 1k glass stone. Once done on the glass stone, I did 25 passes on the 20 mic 2x2 reverting back to backhoning. The edge looked better under 40x mag and was impressively sharper after those 25 passes than the sharp (arm hair shaving along the length) edge off the 1k stone edge leading.
I'll continue honing the Tonsorial Gem through the backhoning diamond paste progression this week and see how that comes out at test shave and report back.
Chris L
So, have you gotten a good look at the edge you honed this way, Chris? I'm wondering if its more rounded then usual. And if it is, I'm wondering if it'll end up making any difference in the long run.
This is a pretty cool experiment.
I have a decent stereo microscope which I use almost exclusively on 40x magnification. Occasionally I will tilt a razor to view the actual edge, as best I can head on, but virtually all of the time when honing, I'm inspecting the edge from a side view. I'm looking at the bevels.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete_S
I'm interested in why you think the edges honing this way would be more rounded then honing edge leading?
Chris L
Mainly b/c you used a material with some give that might let the edge press down into it when it was actually being honed-I'd wonder if it was possible with the paper on glass more then the wood. Since this was actually being honed, not just post honing stroping, even a slight tendency to do this might be exaggerated. I'm not saying that its likely, you did use really stiff materials that would minimize or eliminate that sort of thing. Now that I think about it, I'd guess that there couldn't really even be much pressing into the newspaper, it would prolly tear if there was.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisL
I'm not dismissing your logic. I was wanting a basis for it. The 2x2 pine "hones" are softer than a stone, no doubt. I haven't noticed any rounding on the 2x2s. The oiled newspaper is one layer. It does give a cushioned strop sensation when backhoning over it. I worked on the Tonsorial Gem tonight after asking for additional info from you tonight and brought it up to what all my signs are pointing to as shaving sharp. I will be shaving with it tomorrow. While backhoning/stropping on the 1.5 micron pasted newspaper on glass I watched the edge very closely and made some slow motion passes. Granted, the naked eye wouldn't rule out an upward rebound of the trailing newspaper, but still I didn't see any evidence of that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete_S
Chris L
Very nice shave with the Tonsorial Gem full hollow this morning. I was in a hurry and did a single pass shave. Even with a skimpy prep it was a close comfortable and irritation free shave.
In honing the Tonsorial Gem, I was more concerned about identifying any area of the edge that showed a wire edge than I was about removing all traces of a wire edge before moving to the next grit. My logic in relaxing this that seemed to work was:
The wire edge off the 7 micron which covered approx 75% of the edge automatically decreased on the 3.5 micron passes to approx 30% and was finer in width. The 1.5 micron pasted newspaper over the glass automatically removed the remnants of at that point, the finest and smallest of wire edges.
I will try to find a decent way using my limited digital camera to take a picture of a wire edge as the unaided eye would see it and also under magnification.
I think a key player in this technique is the pasted newspaper on glass. The wood fibers of the newsprint swell a bit, the pasted newspaper surface has a significant draw and all areas of the edge from heel to the absolute tip of the toe are honed. The pasted newspaper just seems to hug the razor so well.
Chris L
