Honing Pastes! Help with choosing please!

Ok gents, all the talk of stropping pastes has got me confused, and I don't want to get messed up before I get started.

First, the things I think I know:

Daily strop:
Linen: White paste (optional)
Leather: Non-abrasive, yellow, aka strop dressing, mink oil etc. as needed to keep leather conditioned.

Pasted/Honing strops:
Diamond pastes are what they say they are, and that includes being pricey!
Dovo Green - 6 micron
Dovo Red (tube, not hard paste) is 2 to 4 micron

Ok, for what I need help on:

Dovo hard pastes:
Is the red package a 5 or 6 micron, or what?
Is the black .25 or something else?

I ordered a 4-sided paddle strop from Tony (and a hanging strop), and I would like to set it up properly to be a flexible and complete honing strop (I know that it can't substitute for a true hone in extreme cases). I am trying to follow the advice Randy gave me, and I would like to set this up with 6 micron, 1 micron, .5 micron and .25 micron on the different planes.

So I could go with Dovo green ($4.99), Diamond 1.0 ($16.99), Diamond .5 ($15.99), and Diamond .25 ($16.99) for a total of $55 just for pastes! :eek:
[all from ClassicShaving)

I also see this as an option:
Assuming that he Dovo 2 part strop paste is 6 micron and .25 micron ($6.99) (ClassicShaving), 1.8 micron Boron Carbide from handamerican.com ($9.50) and finally .5 Chromium Oxide from handamerican ($12.00), for a total of $28.50.

I could also substitute the diamond 1 Micron from Classic Shaving for the 1.8 micron Boron Carbide for just $7.50 more, bringing my total up to $36 if the 1.8 is just not close enough.

Are the Diamond pastes worth the extra $25? I don't want to be cheap, but also don't want to waste money either.

I know that Randy is the one that I started this out with, and that I should probably just get his advise via PM, but I am hoping that by posting out here that maybe it will help some other noobs. :shrug:

Thanks for your help!

Jim

Jim,
All my experience is with the diamond compounds so I won't be much help on the others. I do have the "hard" Dovo pastes but like you don't know for sure what the grit size is. I will also note they are only "hard" if it is 50 dergrees or below <g>. In mid summer they are like a stick of butter left on the counter and contained only by the wrapper......be warned, they are messy. I got them to apply to a vintage belt strop that already had red and black pastes.
I also have a strop with the green chromium oxide on it. It was already on so I don't know how messy application is.
I am sure all are proven performers but I have not tried them yet.
Diamond pastes are pricey but do go a long way. I have ben using the same 4 tubes for 9 months and have well more than half of each left. Figure that since I started selling my kits I have been useing pastes daily to prepare razors for sale. That is a lot of stropping. They are harder and probably a little more effective than the others but at a price tradeoff.

For your 4 side I think smooth leather all around may be a good choice but I do use rough on my coarse pastes. Lets see what the group says about choices on the pastes and I will setup your 4 side accordingly with corect leather choices.

Best,
Tony

So far as pastes go, they are messy. Buy some latex gloves at the local pharmacy -- clean up is a lot easier.

I use the boron carbide & chromium oxide from HandAmerican. For edge maintenance they work great.

Jim, the truth about pastes is that you DON'T actually need to use them. Their use originated from the old days of barbershops, when the barbers needed to refresh the edges after doing a LOT of shavings with their razors. I have read in some barber's manual that one should not use pasted strop before 10 years of plain strop experience, and it's not recomended using them at all... If you want to bring your edge a step further, you might consider getting 12-15K Chinese or Japanese wetstone. It will last you a lifetime, and will do the same if not better job than pasted strop. I am considering getting one myself, but for now, I am shaving very comfortably coming off the Norton 8K and DOVO plain strop.

Nenad

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Originally Posted by sensei_kyle

So far as pastes go, they are messy. Buy some latex gloves at the local pharmacy -- clean up is a lot easier.

I use the boron carbide & chromium oxide from HandAmerican. For edge maintenance they work great.

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I don't know how much the pharmacy charges, but I would recommend purchasing disposable gloves from Lee Valley - $8 for a box of 100. The also have latex and nitrile (for those individuals allergic to latex) gloves. Once you own some you'd be amazed how often you'll use them.

Seems you do have a lot to think about. And your right, you should get your advice from Randy. I will tell you this. I think you pretty much understand what your talking about. You understand that you want various pastes of varying grits, sort of like honing. In my limited opinion you don't want ALL diamond pastes. They are, as you have noticed, an expensive approach. First, remember this, you can't change pastes around too much. Once applied, that leather is impregnated with that grit. Second, paste strops are usually set for certain grits of paste. Tony can advise you on the leather he applied to the 4 sided strop and what you should apply and where.

I prefer the .5 in diamond from classic shaving. Fine honing seems great with diamond paste. I like the red and green pastes as well, cheaper and all from the same place (you have to consider shipping costs as well). Those would give you a regular unpasted strop, one .5, one 3 microns, and one 6 microns (I think, doesn't it say on the classicshaving website?) Well, regardless I know it is a good progression. Again .5, red, and green, with one side being unpasted (as a backup). Later if you want you can put .25 on the unpasted strop and just use the hanging at the end.

Its a little bit of a gamble but if you buy a shave ready razor I would imagine you'd not even need the green. Just red and .5 is where I would start and leave one side open for something else if you need it. Remember again, you can't just put any paste on any leather. Some leathers are designed more "porous" for high grit pastes and .5 should be applied to regular stropping type leather (being a very low grit). In fact I apply my .5, with spectacular results, to balsa wood.

Oh, also

The hanging strop. Just leave that be for now. Forget the pastes. Just rub your palm into it everyday for a while and let your natural oils work on it. Linen is fine too by itself. I rub candle wax into mine. But you don't need to buy all that stuff just yet.

I've heard of guys stropping on a hunk of rubber, and I myself have used my blue jeans. I've even used my palm in a pinch.

You can spend hundreds of dollars on straight shaving to get it "right" but without the knowledge and experience you still won't get a decent shave. You can't buy experience.

Here's my view on pastes. Using pasted strop creates beweled edge, as opposite to honing with finer stones (up to 15K+), wich keeps the edge wedge shaped. When you later hone this beweled edge, you will find it dificult to achieve desired results, needing more time on the hone, because you will have to remove more material to restore the edge. Depending on how long have you used pasted strop, this time is becoming guesswork. On the other side, when you hone nonpasted dull edge, you can usualy predict the strokes needed to restore the edge, as Lynn recomends, with two 1/3 passes on the Norton you can ussualy keen razor that is starting to pull. Using pasted strop also changes edge-spine angle, because pastes can "eat" faster thin edge than the bigger-surfaced spine, again needing more time on the hone to correct.

http://straightrazorpalace.com/image...WZC/pastes.jpg

As far as using pastes on any oeather I would suggest they not be used on the red finish leather on my paddle strops, just the rough or tan surfaces. The red has an oil treatment and I think that may prevent the pastes from fully embedding itself into the leather.

As for the pasted strops creating a secondary bevel on an edge I think that is more a problem with a hanging strop and pastes than on a paddle strop and pastes. The paddle strop and the tan leathers I use creates a pretty hard surface. if using just the weight of a razor on the strop you are unlikely to create the wrong bevel. On a hanging strop that is a different story and I would agree 100% with that creating a problem edge.

AF, you mentioned balsa. I just finished up a 4 sided balsa strop today for use with soft pastes. I was thinking red and black Dovo on two of the 4 but not sure what to use on the other two. I will post a photo in the Gallery, Gear For Sale section with my other stuff.

Tony

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Originally Posted by Tony Miller

As for the pasted strops creating a secondary bevel on an edge I think that is more a problem with a hanging strop and pastes than on a paddle strop and pastes. The paddle strop and the tan leathers I use creates a pretty hard surface. if using just the weight of a razor on the strop you are unlikely to create the wrong bevel. On a hanging strop that is a different story and I would agree 100% with that creating a problem edge.

Tony

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Tony, that is right. If the leather is glued to wood surface, there is little fear of creating beweled edge. But if stropped on hanging pasted strop, you got beweled edge.

Nenad

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Originally Posted by Darkwolf

I ordered a 4-sided paddle strop from Tony (and a hanging strop), and I would like to set it up properly to be a flexible and complete honing strop (I know that it can't substitute for a true hone in extreme cases). I am trying to follow the advice Randy gave me, and I would like to set this up with 6 micron, 1 micron, .5 micron and .25 micron on the different planes.

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I think you have too big a jump in there. Your grit equivalents are: 3K, 14K, 50K and 100K. The .25 gives you an extreme level of sharpness, but you haven't really put together a good set. I would delete it and go 6, 3, 1, and .5. The 3 gives you the 8K grit that you would have with a Norton. And the 1 gets up to the level of a fine finishing hone.

I don't think you'll miss the .25 that much. If you want to try it some day, youcan get a two sided paddle with finished leather on one side and put it on the other. Then you'l be able to go the entire range smoothly with only two paddles.

Nenad,
It does make me wonder about some of the really rounded razors I have gotten from eBay. Many old time barbers used only hanging strops with pastes and they tended to be coarse pastes too. Most of the Dovo tube style and cake stryle pastes are fairly coarse comparred to diamond pastes.
I am sure a 2 or 3 micron paste and a hanging strop could quickly ruin an edge.
Of course with the volume of shavves they did it may have been the most time effective way to quickly sharpen an edge and you must admit there is a certain amount of showmanship to a skilled barber speedily whipping a razor up and down a strop.
Just to clear things up. Ebven though I am "the strop guy" I don't think a strop can replace a hone. Each is a tool for a certain job and eventually most of us will want both to use for the jobs each does best. One compliments the other.
Tony

Quote:

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Originally Posted by superfly

Jim, the truth about pastes is that you DON'T actually need to use them. Their use originated from the old days of barbershops, when the barbers needed to refresh the edges after doing a LOT of shavings with their razors. I have read in some barber's manual that one should not use pasted strop before 10 years of plain strop experience, and it's not recomended using them at all...

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I don't know where you got this information about pastes, but it's not true. The baber's manual we have here says nothing of the sort. There are quite a few people here who have not been able to use a hone properly but have been very successful with pasted strops. I use both, and I find the strops easier. Also, there's less chance of overhoning. What I like best about the strops is that I can use them anywhere- i my office or in front of a TV. I can only use the stones in the bathroom where they always leave a mess.

One thing you didn't mention is babers hones. That's actually what babers used to ue in this country (I saw it), and that's whay our baber's manuals recommend.

Quote:

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If you want to bring your edge a step further, you might consider getting 12-15K Chinese or Japanese wetstone. It will last you a lifetime, and will do the same if not better job than pasted strop. I am considering getting one myself, but for now, I am shaving very comfortably coming off the Norton 8K and DOVO plain strop.

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No stone can come close to a pasted strop. The exalted Shapton is only 15K. Tehy also make a 30K whic you can own for only $700. Even a .5 micron paste is like 50K and will improve your edge after you finish with the Shapton. The 1 micron paste will get you to the level of that Japanese waterstone.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by superfly

Here's my view on pastes. Using pasted strop creates beweled edge, as opposite to honing with finer stones (up to 15K+), wich keeps the edge wedge shaped. When you later hone this beweled edge, you will find it dificult to achieve desired results, needing more time on the hone, because you will have to remove more material to restore the edge. Depending on how long have you used pasted strop, this time is becoming guesswork. On the other side, when you hone nonpasted dull edge, you can usualy predict the strokes needed to restore the edge, as Lynn recomends, with two 1/3 passes on the Norton you can ussualy keen razor that is starting to pull. Using pasted strop also changes edge-spine angle, because pastes can "eat" faster thin edge than the bigger-surfaced spine, again needing more time on the hone to correct.

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I don't know where you get your information, especially since you haven't used anything beyond the Norton yourself.

What you say about the pasted paddle strops is not true if you use them correctly. I look at my razor edges under 100x magnification and I haven't seen any of the rounding you describe. I suppose you could get it if you really bear down on the strop, but then who knows what you would get if you really bear down on a stone. Besides if he used only strops and did get that, so what? I have seen discussions in knife sharpening articles where they try to get that kind of edge because it's stronger and holds up better.

Now if you used hanging strops for paste and didn't use them right, you might get the edge you describe. But we're talking about paddles, which are firm.

If you follow the various posts you'll see that Lynn uses pastes to finish his razors.

If you had a rounded edge and needed to straighten it on a hone, you wouldn't have to guess at anything. You can see when it happens. On a 4K stone the edge forms up very quickly even on an Ebay razor. From your discussion it sounds like you've never done this.

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Originally Posted by Tony Miller

Nenad,
It does make me wonder about some of the really rounded razors I have gotten from eBay. Many old time barbers used only hanging strops with pastes and they tended to be coarse pastes too. Most of the Dovo tube style and cake stryle pastes are fairly coarse comparred to diamond pastes.
I am sure a 2 or 3 micron paste and a hanging strop could quickly ruin an edge.
Of course with the volume of shavves they did it may have been the most time effective way to quickly sharpen an edge and you must admit there is a certain amount of showmanship to a skilled barber speedily whipping a razor up and down a strop.
Just to clear things up. Ebven though I am "the strop guy" I don't think a strop can replace a hone. Each is a tool for a certain job and eventually most of us will want both to use for the jobs each does best. One compliments the other.
Tony

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I used to go to an old time barber and he used only barber hones like they show in the baber's manual. This guy was a real pro and he didn't need to make a show of anything. Once in a while he'd test an edge and do a few swipes over on the side on a small hone he had in his pocket, hit the strop and go to work. I never saw a pasted strop in that shop. Once in a while I would see him spend more time on a razor when he wasn't busy, but it was always quick. I talked to him about it (out of curiosity) and he told me he sent a set of razors out to a service every month. I can't imagine how many shaves he got on a razor before he sent it out to be honed. This guy was shaving constantly.

Tony,

Maybe you could develop the "strone", half strop and half stone!

Randy

My two cents,

The 0.25 is a luxury
The 0.5 I use on all razors and its chrome oxide from hand american. I purchased one pound of the stuff (dry) and apply it dry to the paddle strop which was made from a finishing strop. I use the smooth side. It works very well. I decided on the chrome oxide because I had other uses in mind for the stuff. Diamond does cut faster but whats so important about 1 minute? and I save money.

I would agree with the need for a paste to fit between the 8000 stone and the 0.5 paste. I would try for a 1.0 micron if available. However it is not a necessity! The only logical reason for ordering the one micron now is to save on shipping costs in the future. It does not matter what the material is. They will all get the job done. Its just that some work fastrer than others.
1. Diamond
2. Boron carbide
3. Chrome oxide
4. The old pastes are made from? and what level of quality control is used when they size the abrasive particles?
I will eventually try the old pastes. heck, I have tried rottenstone( it works) and grapite( it works) so I may as well try the others. But the new stuff is more controlled in terms of grain size.

Have a good night all, :)

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Originally Posted by Joe Lerch

I don't know where you get your information, especially since you haven't used anything beyond the Norton yourself.

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“Das Rasiermesser” (The razor) has been written in 1939 and was published by Der Messerschmied Verlag. It goes into detail about production techniques, geometry, and it also addresses the increasing competition with safety razors and electric shavers."

you can find it in nassrazur.com, or here in some of the .pdf's. I think it's in the razor central manual.

Quote:
"The pasted strop is just a commercial object, and cannot be advised to the user or expert. The edge is so fine, it needs only honing once a year, the rest can be done by stropping to polish the edge. Cutting pastes create new edges every time you strop. Coarse pastes cause a rough edge, which does not shave well. Painless shaving is impossible when the edge is not sharp. Only barbers who damage
the edge by shaving many persons a day, need a good cutting paste or a hone to refresh the edge every day. But even then, the cutting pastes are originally meant for French knives, not for hollow ones. Hollow ones form burrs with cutting paste easily. Many barbers stuck to the natural strop without cutting paste. Cutting paste needs special skills and errors are occurring frequently. Also, during shaving the back should be very close to the cheek i.e. with a very small angle, to conserve the edge.
Frequently, customers only start to complain after the razor has been sent in for sharpening. The
reason is, that before they shaved with a dull razor, increasing the shaving angle and the pressure, their pain nerves adapting to the pain. After sharpening, they damaged the edge by using the increased
pressure and angle they got used to, or worse, by using cutting paste. A burr forms faster the sharper the blade.
Many barbers have tried out several tricks with one purpose: to avoid honing. With the so called cutting pastes they believed to have found a suitable method. However, more than ever barbers complain about bad cutting razors, causing them to try out many amateuristic experiments, such as glassplates, ashes, soap, oils, pastes etc, without any succes. Even after having used a pasted strop, the unpasted strop is necessary to complete the stropping process. Every barber who wants to use the pasted strop, should have experience with honing first, for 10-15 years."

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Originally Posted by Joe Lerch

Now if you used hanging strops for paste and didn't use them right, you might get the edge you describe. But we're talking about paddles, which are firm.

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True. Partially. If U use pressure, you get the edge as well.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Joe Lerch

If you had a rounded edge and needed to straighten it on a hone, you wouldn't have to guess at anything. You can see when it happens. On a 4K stone the edge forms up very quickly even on an Ebay razor. From your discussion it sounds like you've never done this.

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I shave with this:

http://straightrazorpalace.com/image.../sol5yahre.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Joe Lerch

One thing you didn't mention is babers hones. That's actually what babers used to ue in this country (I saw it), and that's whay our baber's manuals recommend.

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True. I forgot to mention them, and I think they do what they supposed to, and are a great tool also.


have fun...

Nenad

My personal opinon only BUT I feel the validity of that manual is summed up in the first part. ""The edge is so fine, it needs only honing once a year, the rest can be done by stropping to polish the edge.""

So we are to believe that a comercially used razor only needs honing once a year and the strop alone will keep it going all year??? I doubt any of us could go a year this way using out razors just once a day. This is looking like a Danial Rouah manual now <g>.

I will stand by the hard paddle and light pressure not damaging the edge to any measuarble extent and the hanging pasted strop being very likely to reshape the edge and creating a secondary bevel.

Each book or manual is an individual opinon and each must be taken with a grain of salt. the info is worth noting in any of them but actual practice and the results we get are what works in the real world. Yes, the pasted strop may just be a comercial item as is the very manual that denigrades it. Both were meant to sell based on their creators opinons. Some work, some don't.

Tony

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you can find it in nassrazur.com, or here in some of the .pdf's. I think it's in the razor central manual.

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You said it yourelf. It's 1939. I don't know how they did it back then. But today Stropping with hard pasted strops is widely accepted in all sharpening circles. Just go online and check. It's considered the next step after hones. I'm afraid you're going against the wheels of progress.

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True. Partially. If U use pressure, you get the edge as well.

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I don't know if you could use enough pressure to do that with a solid paddle strop (Tony Miller can correct me). What you would get, if you could, is the same thing as a stone. The edge would bend and rise up above the surface of the strop. Besides, there's no reason to use that kind of pressure. That's why you use different pastes.

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I shave with this:

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Oh my! I hope you're not serious! I don't need a microscope to see that edge needs a lot of work. I would hone if the edge looked like that at 60x. With your naked eye, the edge should look perfectly smooth and straight. Just look at the razors in the gallery. Even old ones have a sharp edge. I envy your tough skin.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tony Miller

My personal opinon only BUT I feel the validity of that manual is summed up in the first part. ""The edge is so fine, it needs only honing once a year, the rest can be done by stropping to polish the edge.""

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If they had mentioned refreshing the edge with a barber hone, I could agree.

I used to go to an old time barber who used to specialize in shaving, his assistants did the haircuts, and he was always busy with shaves; Saturdays, mornings, and I don't know when else. I know he was open late two nights. Conservatively, I would say he had to do 30 shaves a week or more. He carried a little hone and I would see him sneak a few swipes occasionally, but he told me he sent a few razors out for service once a month.

Unfortunatrly I don't know if they were the same ones being sent out (I doubt it because he had a bunch of razors on hand to work with). I also don't know if the razors actually needed the service or he just did it as maintenance. I don't know an accurate way to figure it out, but if you say he did 150 shaves a month with three razors and sent the same razors out every other month, he was getting about 100 shaves on a razor between major honings. For an individual that would be roughly 3 times a year for one razor. I have too many razors in my otation to tell if that's right. Maybe others can.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Joe Lerch

Oh my! I hope you're not serious! I don't need a microscope to see that edge needs a lot of work. I would hone if the edge looked like that at 60x. With your naked eye, the edge should look perfectly smooth and straight. Just look at the razors in the gallery. Even old ones have a sharp edge. I envy your tough skin.

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My bad, I mean that is what it looked like when I picked it up, now it's all fine and shiny... I will post some "after" pictures when I get some nice camera.

1939 was the heyday of straight razors, and many of people's finest razors are from that time...

To sumarize my pasted strop posts here: Don't get me wrong, I think that if you use them wisely and carefuly, pasted strops may benefit your edge. I might even consider getting myself one, if Tony still wants to make me one, after all my pasted posts;)

Nenad

How long and what did you do to get that razor shavable?

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Originally Posted by mpols1968

How long and what did you do to get that razor shavable?

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It took me about 10 hours to clean this razor. You can read my post about it here:

http://straightrazorpalace.com2/showthread.php?t=3691

Nenad

Nenad,
That razor probably took way too much work. You should have gotten one of those "fuzzy" filters the ebay razor sellers use and it would have looked much better <g>.
Tony

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Originally Posted by Tony Miller

Nenad,
That razor probably took way too much work. You should have gotten one of those "fuzzy" filters the ebay razor sellers use and it would have looked much better <g>.
Tony

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LOL, actually, it's not e-bay find, I find it locally and got it for practice.

Nenad