Before i start sorry for my English. The question is what grind have a chromium oxiden paste its something about 600 grind or less. I`m thinking about a finishing paste.
Thanks for response
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Before i start sorry for my English. The question is what grind have a chromium oxiden paste its something about 600 grind or less. I`m thinking about a finishing paste.
Thanks for response
CrO is in the 60k grit range.
I good understand its 60 000 grint??
yes 60000 grit
Generally, chromium oxide is in the 0.5 micron range, stating it in different units.
And what Paste Of chromium oxiden will be The best. A homemad from pigment 44200, 44210 or buy a ready paste a Puma chromium? I know its that question may by stupid but now when i use my homemade strop i dom't fill any diffrences betwen that strop and dovo premim lether. If a sama be onest whit You guys i prefer my stop becuse its larger and more funn when use it:)
thanks for response Cube
Quote:
Originally Posted by mainaman
CrOx is .5 Micron. So that means it's roughly the equivalent of a 30,000 shapton (.49m), or 8000 JIS Sandpaper...
I'm not sure where you got 60,000.
And, just for the record, the JIS only goes up to 8000, so anything after than is non-standard as far as Japanese stones are concerned...
let´s not go through this again.
Chromium Oxide is a crystalline product that could technically have ANY grit size.
The chromium oxide commonly used and availiable has a rough particle size of 0.5µm.
The pigment PG17 produced by Kremer Pigmente in Deutschland has made some REM analysis and the average particle size of their Cr2O3 is 0.3µm
0.5µm can be translated into certain grit systems.
So we should make clear wich one he wants to hear.
The number 60k (60.000) referrs to the MESH system,
that has been commonly used for diamond sharpening compunds.
It is standartized to 100.000 I think,
unless JIS wich stops at 8.000 (as far as we know).
Still JIS can be extrapolated to any grit size!
Another commonly used number in Mesh for 0.5µ particles is 50k.
Shapton says it uses the Mesh system as well, wich up to the 30k is correct,
but fails at 30k. Idk why the shapton with 0.49 is called 30k.
But it doesn´t make any difference.
Not only will a shapton 30k cut different than chromium oxide at roughly the same grit size, but are in any term incompareable.
I would say in these high grit ranges it would be best to talk about actually micron sizes. But this might be my personal preference
the interesting part for cube:
What I wonder about is why the thread starter thinks a finishing paste would be around 600 grit. Are you talking about AINSI sandpaper?
btw: the Pigment 44200 or PG17 is exactly the Chromiumoxide Pigment that I use.
It comes from Kremer in germany and has an average particle size of 0.3µm
and has a round shape. It is perfectly suited for our purposes.
You can mix a little bit of the poweder with oil and apply to your strop
Your razor or blade should be sharpened on waterstones up to ~8.000 (standart waterstone grit)
before you can go to the chromium oxide.
And as far as Naniwa Kenma knows.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lesslemming
Every Japanese stone above 8K is based on in-house determinations, not on any external standard. This is straight from a representative of a Japanese waterstone manufacturer.
You´re right. The only uncertainity that remained for me was,Quote:
Every Japanese stone above 8K is based on in-house determinations, not on any external standard
that I did not see the official JIS list, that costs money to have a look at.
That´s why I said I personally prefer the actual micron size,
because it has the most information (but certainly not all. I wish to know the tolerances: 0.5µm +/- 0.3 or 10% above and 90% below) about the particle.
Still not about the sharpening power and action... but something to work with.
( I just saw a typo, I meant "unLIKE JIS wich stops at 8k (as far as we know) but can be extrapolated to any grit size")
Fair enough!Quote:
Originally Posted by Lesslemming
I can't show you the official list, but Naniwa assures me that this information follows JIS standards.
I wonder why there is Na2O in our Naniwa hones :hmmm:
Concerning getting some CO though...
I ordered a packet from ChrisL in the classifieds. I got in yesterday, and to me it definitely look like enough for at least two strops, and he double bags it in little ziplocs and includes directions with a few different ways to try using it.
I highly recommend it to anyone looking to experiment, and at $4 shipped CONUS, you can't go wrong because it is more than I think I will use in years.
Thanks for that large replay :]
What I wonder about is why the thread starter thinks a finishing paste would be around 600 grit. Are you talking about AINSI sandpaper?
No i talk about a paste what i found on internet shop. Now i looking a good pigment for making a chormium oxiden paste. Last time i found a great guy called ChrisL and i wanna buy that magical powder from him, but from no knowing reson i can`t end the pay pal transaction :/
Then i serch a powder who guys use to make that powder and find a Kremel pigment. And when i read You guys i have a good feeling about that stuff. But tell me whats be beter that pigment or paste buy from the shop??
I bought Chomium Oxide powder from Kremer pigments, and am very happy with it. It is very fine, at 0.3 microns, as stated earlier. Here's order info from the US outlet...
Kremer Pigments
247 West 29th Street
New York, NY 10001
212-219-2394 voice
212-219-2395 fax
Kremer Pigments Inc. NYC
[email protected]
Chromium Oxide powder
100 grams
$7.80 plus $9.50 shipping... $17.30
I also bought the Chromium Oxide "crayon" from Straight Razor Designs and am very happy with it also. 0.5 micron.
As for which is best, actually I am using both... StraightRazorDesigns' 0.5, followed by the Kremer 0.3. Inspection with a microscope, and the hanging hair test, both seem to indicate that there is a definite difference in grit size between the two, and that the Kremer does polish and sharpen a little finer than the 0.5 micron Chromium Oxide. But, truthfully, I can't tell that much difference when shaving. I got a good edge with only the 0.5 micron crayon, and I get a good edge with the 0.3 micron powder as the final polish.
if both the paste and the poweder consist of the same material, chromium oxide, they probably will be very similar, not same, but similar to the extend that you probably will not notice any difference.
The Kremer (not Kremel :roflmao ) pigments are of ultimate high quality.
In germany they sell 100g for 2.50€ plus 4€ shipping makes not more than 7€
and 100g will be enough to paint a house.
What exactly are you going to do with the paste, finishing a razor?
How did you sharpen it prior to pasting?
I think you are addressing this question to me, LessLemming...Quote:
Originally Posted by Lesslemming
Before pasting, I use a barbers hone. A more detailed response below...
Admittedly, I am outside the honing and sharpening mainstream. I have none of the Norton hones and other stones usually used. I am sharpening my razors "on the cheap" for the moment, since I have only been doing this since July. In the future, I have always said I will move to the "right" way, buying some of the more commonly used stones. However, I am now getting good enough edges with pastes (as the final steps) that I am starting to doubt that I will do anything other than what I am doing now.
Here's my sharpening progression...
- Arkansas hard whetstone (if blade is in very bad shape)
- Barbers hone
- Red Dovo paste (on balsa)
- Black Dovo paste (on balsa)
- 0.5 micron StraightRazorDesigns Chromium Oxide (on balsa)
- 0.3 micron Kremer Chromium Oxide (on balsa)
- 0.25 micron Diamond spray (on balsa)
After experimentation, I may remove one of the last two items, or I may retain them both. (Chromium Oxide crystals are round and don't gouge as deep, hence are better polishers. Diamond gouges deeper, but works quickly to remove metal.)
I use a Radio Shack microscope to check the edge, that it is straight, and that the bevel is polished without deep scratches.
A word about pastes vs hones from someone who admittedly has NO experience with stone hones (like the Nortons)... Privately, and on a thread or two, I have asked several experts why pastes are somewhat in disfavor. I think their answer makes a lot of sense. Summarizing...
(1) Pastes eventually round a cutting edge, while stones do not.
(2) Pastes are not as predictable and consistent in results.
(3) Pastes take longer.
I can't disagree with any of their points. They make logical sense. And, if I was advising anyone how to proceed, I would suggest stones and that they go with the common wisdom on this site. However, if someone can't spend the money on stones... initially, with some provisos and cautions and guidance, I believe pastes can produce a shave ready edge easily.
Somewhat "Contradicting" my previous post about pastes being cheaper...
If you add up what I spent on pastes, I might have been able to purchase the stones I needed and been done with it. However, when I started, I didn't know whether I would continue straight razor shaving. So, I purchased some cheap pastes to experiment with. If I had known from the beginning that this would turn out so well, I would have purchased stones to begin with.
oh actually I was hoping to get a little mor information from cube,
because I still wonder how he got this information "600 might be good for razors"
If there is some misinformation we can easily help him out with that :)
Still good to read your progression!
I have been experimenting with another nice pigment.
Someone recommended me to try ironoxide.
Kremer sells Pr 101 with an average particle size of 0.09 µm with round shape (they sell different Pr 101 I think).
It is awesome. It puts the smoothest non agressive edges on my blades
I myself had to overcome the disfavor for pastes,
but they are absolutely common in germany.
Nearly everybody uses them.
I didn´t like them, but use the diamond on felt
or ironoxide every now and then.
There is one thing to consider when recommending pastes to a newby:
they are absolutely easy to use!
It´s easyer to get a perfect edge with pastes than on the stones
Sorry to bog things down with my response. I just ordered the Kremer Iron (Ferrous) Oxide yesterday. Good to hear it works well.
Yes i wanna use that paste to finishing edge.
If You asking me about my sharpening. I use a Norton waterstone 4k/8k unforently i dom't have a lover grit stone - perfect will be a Norton 220k/1000k. But ther wen i live - Poland - gry that kimś Of stone its bery difficult, almoust impossible :(
when i finish sharpening on 8k i finish blade on 12k - but fr some te i disaide to not use that stone becuse same 8k i thinl oś better.
Affter all i clean Razor by paper towel, use my hommeade strop, linen side 15 łapę or less and lether side something about 30 laps.
Results affter all if my Beatę its 4days long i shave wery quickly comfortable - almoust smooth. Only little hair on my right side of Chin.
I have problems when i start shaving 1-2days beard becuse after third shave Of week i have a little iritations on my neck.
Then i must wait 4-5 days and migjt start again :)
your sharpening routine looks right. So you´re coming from poland? I bought my Chinese 12k from there, the seller also has some nice diamond pastes at a reasonable price.
You could consider buying some of them (around 1/2µm) and applying them to felt wich is glued to wood.
Remember; the usual finishing grit for razor sharpening compounds is
somewhat around 0.5µm (or micron)
So any "600" grit polishing compound would make me wonder
Here's a thread that gives sources of CrO in Europe, Cube:
http://straightrazorpalace.com/strop...de-europe.html
If the highest stone you have is a 8k Norton I would consider getting some 1 micron diamond as well. You would go from the Norton to the pasted strop with the 1 micron diamond, then to the Chromium oxide pasted strop.
By the way, Ardennes Coticle is in Belgium, you could get a coticle finishing stone there:
Ardennes Coticule - Producer of the Coticule whetstone!
I didn't add those exclamation points, btw...
I see You still have a asking about a paste 600 wher i found it. I ask becuse when i look for The paste on Internet thats all. For me its be wery strainge to polishing edge on 8k and then downgrade to 600 grit but who's know mayne it's a good methood :)
About a cromium oxide I found that kremel pigment when earley read You post thanks :) I connsdering what pigment will be the best but no one try a 44210 then I wait 10 days for a 44200 most people whe buy it whas happy :)
About a stone a Belgian stone it's great :) but for me it's little to expensive and when I try to use norton then I don't wanna use other stone :) when I look stone other was smaller or don't have that grit. Last time I buy my first ston one classicshaving it was not chep (package from USA to Poland) and price of stone becuse for that same price I be have 3 stones on kraftsmamstudio but kraftsmamstudio don't sen international package and that's it's a problem. But you know when stone lome to me I was lagging like a little Childe :) it's was fantastic I'm wery happy from that stone, and know colect money to lower grint stone
That guy from diamond paste - I buy from him "my" first razor and dovo black and red past and diamond 1/2 mikron paste.
For test I know diamond it's not for me. I use only diamond plate for flatering stone, but for my skin I wanna try a chromium.
And from that another question whit what proportion I must mix a pigment and what stuff I must use (mineral oil correct?)
I don't think it is critical how you mix the Chromium Oxide powder with the oil you are using. Put a very small amount of powder in a small bowl, and add a drop of oil. Mix it with a QTip (stick with end covered with cotton used to clean inside of ears), or with a small stick, anything that will stir. You should end up with a spreadable paste. Paste that on your strop or balsa, but don't overdo it! A little will do. You can always add more.
Ok, if I'm understanding you right you're asking about the grit. As others have said, CrO comes in different grits, like diamond pastes. The link in that thread is CrO that is a grit that is good for straight razors, .5 micron, or 30,000 grit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cube
As far as the diamond paste goes, if you're coming off the 8k Norton your edge is still going to be a little rough, and the diamond paste would sharpen it further, but it does leave a rough edge. If you follow the diamond with the CrO it smooths the edge out and takes away the harshness that the diamond leaves. Its at your discretion, of course.
Hand american lists the CrO grit as 60,000 on their containers. I thought CrO was 60k for a while, too.Quote:
Originally Posted by JimR
as we have already said, everybody uses his own grit rating system, without even saying wich one they are referring to.
30k,60k, 50k... nevermind. Even WITH the grit system you get in trouble,
because both 30k, 50k and 60k are used in Mesh for 1/2 micron particles.
(although 30k I have only seen on Shapton Stones)
I don´t even know the JIS rating for 1/2micron.
I just use 0.5µm sharpening particles. That´s all.
If there is only a number given ie. 60k I ask the seller specificly.
The Oil-Chromium ratio is no science.
I dip the tip of my finger into the powder (wich I don´t recommend)
or use a very small tip of a knive, mix it in a disposable container with a drop of oil
and mix. You should instantly get a deep colour.
I then dip my finger into the colour (wouldn´t do that, too)
and paint the leather in a very thin layer.
Then I let dry for a second and rub a bottle on the leather
to work the particles in.
Strop a kitchen knive or something else before you put your razor to it,
in order to work the chromium in.
And your done :)
Ok thanks to all You guys for that large request for my question, today i order a kremer 44200 pigment and i then i only must find a mineral oil. When i recive my order an make paste i write a litle about my experience.
ok big news i recive 3 days ago a some small package whit Kremel pigment. I never susspous that i like a natural smel of that stuff. But anyway when i got it then i mix a small piece (teaspoo) whit 4ml of mineral oil then put that on leather.
Yesterdey a test that after honing on 4k/8k norton 15 laps on linen side 15 on strop whit that chromium stuff and 30 on normal strop. And mayby i don`t know but i don`t feel any difrences.
Chromium Oxide crystals are fairly round in structure and so don't gouge as deeply as diamond crystals. But, for this reason, they cut more slowly. Possibly, you didn't use the chromium oxide long enough. And, possibly, you won't be able to detect a difference.
And, by the way, I don't know whether you are speaking about a shaving difference, or an observable physical difference.
I have finished razors with 0.25 micron diamond spray, and shaved only to feel like the razor was scratching. When I take, say, 20 or 30 passes on Chromium Oxide, this sensation seems to disappear.
The scratchy or harsh feeling I mentioned above with 0.25 micron diamond doesn't always occur, and doesn't always occur with every razor. So, this might be technique problem on my part. (It is fairly common to hear statements like this, often using the word "harsh" instead of scratchy.)
Ok and that`s my feelings about chromium oxide. On my first try mayby i touch too much or too less becusee a endge sems to be not enoght sharp. And that for that reasson becuse after shave i still have some hair on my nec. Second try give me a better results, mayby it`s not fantastic (i still don`t have any reference point) but much better.
Between too much and too little, you prolly put too much, its pretty common. The tutorial on the top of the strop forum shows a strop with a good amount, you can barely tell the strop is pasted. You don't wan't the strop to look like the top of a pool table.