How important is draw?

I like for my strops to have quite a bit of draw, because I have this notion that the more draw, the better (up to a point) in terms of prepping the razor's edge. But, I got to thinking about some of the old strops I've seen barbers use, and some of those strops have almost glass-like surfaces. Now, I'm not so sure that draw really matters in terms of edge prep, that it's just a matter of personal preference regarding the feel, or feedback, of the strop while you're using it. So, do you folks think that draw really matters in terms of razor prep?

I like a little bit. I am not a fan of a strop that has so much that it makes it difficult (for me) to control the razor with a light touch. I have experienced strops that have that much draw. I agree with a thread that AFDavis11 posted some time back that light pressure is preferable. I find that easier to maintain with moderate draw. YMMV :)

What I'm really wondering is if a strop with a lot of draw sharpens/conditions a blade any better than a strop with virtually no draw?

I believe the answer is that the amount of draw does not mean a strop is better for a razor, but I could be mistaken. I seem to remember reading that some members have strops (horse, I think) with little to no draw and they work very well.

Draw is a characteristic of some strops. If a strop exibits it, draw can be used as an indicator of sharpness but if a certain strop doesn't exhibit it then it means nothing. The draw itself doesn't have anything to do with the efficiency of the strop meaning the draw does not make the razor sharper.

I think it was one of your previous posts I was thinking of, TBS...

I wondered the same thing a while back, Tony Miller, the reigning authority on strops, said it doesn't make a difference/isn't more efficient, ect.


http://straightrazorpalace.com/strop...-anything.html

I agree. No difference. You'd think it would matter, but I've tried both and it doesn't.

I agree with TheBigSpender as well on the draw being a good indicator and feedback tool. For a beginner it can help clarify that you've honed correctly.

As I only have one strop, I cannot attest to any differences I've noticed from personal experience. However...2 points I have noticed make me think there might be a difference in the effect of stropping arising from differences in draw:

1. One thread (http://straightrazorpalace.com/strop...g-article.html) points to an article that suggests that stropping is actually a mildly abrasive process, removing corrosion. Many members have given this idea their support.
2. Many SRP members report using a stropping routine that goes from heaviest draw to lightest draw, such as from linen to latigo to horsehide.

These two points make me think that the draw from a strop is indicative of its level of abrasion. Higher draw = more abrasive. So going from a very heavy draw strop, such as linen, to a silky smooth, low draw strop such as a fine horsehide, would seem to lead to a finer and finer abrasive cleaning to the edge, leaving one with a finely touched up razor.

I plan on getting a TM latigo/linen strop to use in conjunction with my horsehide in order to test this out, but I would like to hear others' feedback.

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Originally Posted by DanS

2. Many SRP members report using a stropping routine that goes from heaviest draw to lightest draw, such as from linen to latigo to horsehide.

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I'm one of those who did the linen to latigo to horse routine. I don't know that the latigo to horse makes any difference (OTOH, maybe it does) but I do believe the linen does enhance the sharpness. IIRC the 'Interesting Article' thread you noted comes to that conclusion ?

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

I'm one of those who did the linen to latigo to horse routine. I don't know that the latigo to horse makes any difference (OTOH, maybe it does) but I do believe the linen does enhance the sharpness. IIRC the 'Interesting Article' thread you noted comes to that conclusion ?

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It was said that the abrasiveness of the linen did enhance the sharpness b/c of the removal of corrosion, but I believe the same was said of the leathers (though not quite as abrasive).

I find draw a definite item of personal preference. As I test both strops, linens and different fabrics daily for strops, I normally will do both a Thumb Pad Test and actually shave off both fabrics and the different leathers to test what I feel makes the most differences in materials. I do find that some of the slicker feeling leathers of today really don't provide the best results, however several of them do provide better results as they break in.

From a personal standpoint, my preference in draw is something on the medium end. I like a little resistance, but not harder resistance. When doing a minimum of 1200 strokes per day on a stop I get an idea pretty quickly of what feels good to me or not.The other interesting thing for me is that when I find a strop that I like, it works for all types and shapes of razors. I have never found that any particular strop works better for one brand or shape of a razor vs. another.

Have fun.

Lynn

Linen X 25, webbed fabric (SRD) X 25, Latigo X 30, TM horsehide X 30.

This may be overkill, but I've noticed a significant improvement in my shaving edges since going to this.

Lynn, when you say you haven't found ideal results with some of the slicker strops, do you include vintage horse/shell in that category?

I tend to agree with those here saying it's mostly preference. As far as theories about abrasiveness & draw, I'm sure it's technically true but the differences frankly must be too tiny to matter. I base this on the fact that I've never seen unpasted vintage strops – no matter how well-used – with the sort of grey/darkened streaks that you always see when abrasive paste is used.

I like vintage shell strops and I agree that they have no draw when you begin stropping. After 40-50 fast passes they do build up a little draw. In fact that's my indication that the edge is ready, but I may well be imagining that there's any correlation.

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Originally Posted by dylandog

Lynn, when you say you haven't found ideal results with some of the slicker strops, do you include vintage horse/shell in that category?

I tend to agree with those here saying it's mostly preference. As far as theories about abrasiveness & draw, I'm sure it's technically true but the differences frankly must be too tiny to matter. I base this on the fact that I've never seen unpasted vintage strops – no matter how well-used – with the sort of grey/darkened streaks that you always see when abrasive paste is used.

I like vintage shell strops and I agree that they have no draw when you begin stropping. After 40-50 fast passes they do build up a little draw. In fact that's my indication that the edge is ready, but I may well be imagining that there's any correlation.

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I really don't feel that the horsehide results are that good at first when the strop is new and the stropping is slick. As the strop breaks in, I do find that the results definitely improve. the results from some of my vintage horsehide strops are superb. This is only my opinion though and others may not experience the same. I try to hand rub all my strops until my palm is warm prior to use and after. Not only helps break in a strop, but helps to keep them supple and helps with the draw.

Lynn

I've been using a TM Latigo Cotton for two years. Just got a TM Horsehide Linen. Been Going Linen-Latigo-Horsehide for a couple weeks and it seems to me I'm getting better results. But who knows.....

I love these strops though.

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Originally Posted by Lynn

I try to hand rub all my strops until my palm is warm prior to use and after. Not only helps break in a strop, but helps to keep them supple and helps with the draw.

Lynn

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Come to think of it, probably heat probably has a lot to do with draw on slick shell strops.

I always like to think the mounting draw means the edge is ready, but that's probably pure fantasy; the strop is just heating up.

I have a bunch, probably more than I need. I have a DD Scotch Shell which is like the aforementiond "Glass" It's more for the collection that anything else. One strop, a beauty I got off ebay and restored stinks of cigarettes, it just won't come out, so it's bannded to the garage, What sucks is, it has great draw...The russian leather, Latigo, Horse, etc...Lately, I've been "Dual Stropping. I'll always do 25 on some type of canvan or linen, then 25 on Latigo, and 25 on Kenrup's Paladin which is like a suede almost. So, it's like a progression, rough, less rough, fine....? you get the idea....

I also like a medium draw in a strop. How much draw I feel seems to tell me more about the moisture level of my strop than anything else though. as the leather gets in need of conditioning the draw lessens and lessens just after conditioning it is almost heavier than I like.

I gotta start doing the hand rub thing daily, I think it might really help especially in the dry winter house.

I picked up a vintage horse hide strop in great condition, when I first started using it I found it had a nice draw to it. After a month or so using it, the strop has a shine on it and there is little to no draw. Should I get some fine grit sandpaper or a pumice stone to take off the shine and hopefuly bring back some of that nice draw it once had?

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Originally Posted by kipper

I picked up a vintage horse hide strop in great condition, when I first started using it I found it had a nice draw to it. After a month or so using it, the strop has a shine on it and there is little to no draw. Should I get some fine grit sandpaper or a pumice stone to take off the shine and hopefuly bring back some of that nice draw it once had?

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I had this problem and saddle soap solved it beautifully. IMO sandpaper and/or pumice would be overkill in this situation.

This is an interesting thread. I would be interested to hear if you guys feel a different draw on any of your strops during the process. Does the draw increase at 20 strokes or 30 or 50? Is it different when you first come off a hone? Are you getting sufficient feedback to feel the differences? Do you feel differences with different width blades or different grinds?

Thanks,

Lynn

OK Lynn.

Lets see.

IF I do the hand rub like you do stropping tends to start out with a good draw. If I start with a cold strop it takes 20 or so laps before I begin to feel the draw. This is assuming there is enough moisture in the strop to get decent draw at all, my house is dry as hell this time of year and sucks the moisture out of everything.

I don't feel any significant difference when I come off a hone, though it does seem that if the razor is quite dull I don't really get any draw with it, though that might be my imagination, but as long it is in good shaving condition it strops like the day it was honed.

I don't really have a variety of grinds but the wider the blade the greater the draw it seems, though my smiling 6/8 does not draw as heavy as my straight 6/8's. Some blades seem to draw heavier than others in the same width and grind but I have no way to really account for why. It doesn't seem to be polish level, or country of origin related.

This is all on a Tony Miller NO.2 Latigo that is a few yeas old and has a couple of cosmetic (I assume) nicks. My antique 1.5 inch loom strop with vege tanned, neetsfoot finished leather doesn't really produce any draw at all to speak of.

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Originally Posted by kipper

I picked up a vintage horse hide strop in great condition, when I first started using it I found it had a nice draw to it. After a month or so using it, the strop has a shine on it and there is little to no draw. Should I get some fine grit sandpaper or a pumice stone to take off the shine and hopefuly bring back some of that nice draw it once had?

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Kipper, I would also add that I would not suggest using strop conditioning paste on vintage horse-shell strops. Don't know if you did that I'm just saying. Shell is almost impermeable and in my experience the conditioning paste just sort of sits on top and creates a surface slick (or worse, a grubby gunk) rather than absorbing into the leather. Besides, shell is very supple and durable and the palm-rubbing Lynn recommends is more than enough to maintain it.

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Originally Posted by Wildtim

IF I do the hand rub like you do stropping tends to start out with a good draw. If I start with a cold strop it takes 20 or so laps before I begin to feel the draw. This is assuming there is enough moisture in the strop to get decent draw at all, my house is dry as hell this time of year and sucks the moisture out of everything.

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Lynn, this is pretty much my experience as well, except that I usually have to do about 40 fast passes to work up a draw. Again, I use one of those very smooth vintage shell strops. I always think of the draw perking up as my cue that the razor is "done," but again, this may well be simply a function of the leather heating up. I'll have to try warming it up with my palm before stropping to see if that's the case.

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Originally Posted by Wildtim

I don't feel any significant difference when I come off a hone, though it does seem that if the razor is quite dull I don't really get any draw with it, though that might be my imagination, but as long it is in good shaving condition it strops like the day it was honed.

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My experience exactly. No particular effect from a fresh honing, but a dull razor will not draw.

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Originally Posted by dylandog

Kipper, I would also add that I would not suggest using strop conditioning paste on vintage horse-shell strops. Don't know if you did that I'm just saying. Shell is almost impermeable and in my experience the conditioning paste just sort of sits on top and creates a surface slick (or worse, a grubby gunk) rather than absorbing into the leather. Besides, shell is very supple and durable and the palm-rubbing Lynn recommends is more than enough to maintain it.

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No I have no paste at all on the strop.

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Originally Posted by Lynn

This is an interesting thread. I would be interested to hear if you guys feel a different draw on any of your strops during the process. Does the draw increase at 20 strokes or 30 or 50? Is it different when you first come off a hone? Are you getting sufficient feedback to feel the differences? Do you feel differences with different width blades or different grinds?

Thanks,

Lynn

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I find that I can feel the draw after about 10 strokes with a full hollow and I find it a little harder to get the same kind of draw with more of a wedge.

Palm rubbing on horse strops to me is a must. It warms the leather and conditions in one with the bonus of getting a mild draw while stropping.

Latigo and other heavy oiled leathers for me require palming for the reverse reason, to polish the surface and relieve the draw you can get on some high wax/oil leathers.

A well broken in russian or latigo strop for me has a faster work rate on an edge that a smooth horse hide etc. Sometimes just 5 round trips on Latigo can do the muscle work, leaving a final finish on a horse hide strop too add the finesse....along with making you feel the right amount of work was put into this shave :)

I have the habit of selecting the heavy draw strops for the heavy grinds I think mainly for the control you have with a 1/4 hollow say, on latigo with its heavy draw.
I keep the full hollows to the horse hides and less heavy draw strops for the same reason. This is not to say that they never see Latigo etc, just not for so long.
This preference is ease of use for me not because one type of draw works best for a certain grind of razor, though a argument could be made of this I suspect.

I hope my thoughts help

PuFF