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I've read a few places (in the documents in the Help section) that it is recommended to let a razor rest for a few days between shaves. The same documents also say that you should not strop the razor after shaving since this might damage the strop because of the edge being slightly damaged after the shaving.
Could someone explain why this is not valid advice (I get the impression that nobody here follows these "rules").
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Alf
I normally strop a razor after every shave and have done so for years without problems. I have also used the same razor daily for weeks without problem or any loss of edge. Like alot of advice, everyone really needs to find out what works best for them.
Good Luck.
Lynn
Just out of curiousity, why do you strop after the shave when you're (probably) stropping before the next shave...
Quote:
Originally Posted by alfborge
I'm not sure why Lynn does it, but I do it to both clean the edge, and make sure it's absolutely dry before putting it away. Carbon steel razor edges will microscopically degrade due to corrosion, if moisture is left on the edge. I suspect (outside the fact that he's the best razor honer around) that one of the reasons he gets so much life out of a razor before rehoning, is that his edges don't degrade due to corrosion.
The problem with a lot of recommendations is that as soon as someone with some authority recommends something others follow suit and pass the recommendations on. Soon such a recommendation is considered as rock solid truth. I have experienced same in gardening, medicine, technique etc. Some think that small burr particles on the cutting edge of the razor caused during a shave will fall back into their old place with rest.Quote:
Originally Posted by alfborge
I've picked up a couple of the old 7-day sets. One of the old sets with ivory handles is what I mostly use for shaving now. These sets allow for the blade to rest and re-align for a week before it was used again.
When I first started my experiments with shaving I bought a new Dovo. I shaved with it every day for a month or so before I used the "resting" theory to justify buying another Dovo, with contrasting handle color. My plan was that I would use the dark handle on odd days, and the light handle on even days.
I shaved that way, alternating blades, for another month or so. To be honest, I didn't notice any difference. Then I started buying the old antiques, and from that time I never had the luxury of even imagining that my blades were not getting enough rest between uses.
It's a good theory if you want an excuse to buy another razor. It sounds really scientific to the wife if you talk about steel elasticity and micro-realignment.
I was told by my old barber, Jim (who stropped after shaving to realign the edge) that the razor needed to rest for the rest of that day and it would be good to go the next morning. I strop after the shave about a dozen passes on brushed leather these days, and have used the same razor for sequential days without noticing any problems.
X
I think one of the problems is that much of the information we use to make our decisions on involving straights is based on what I call old barbers tales. Because someones friends cousins barber told him to do it one way everyone must now follow suit. You have to experiment and do things the way it works for you not the way it worked for some old barber. A few months ago I did a post comparing alot of this stuff to lemmings, you know those animals that follow each other off the cliff every few years. We shouldn't be like them. I know many people say when you are starting out you need gereralized advice on how to do things, and thats true but you should always question the same advice and look to improve and adapt something lemmings don't do.
I can tell you my own compromise on this: first I dry the blade and scales gently with a towel, keeping the towel off the blade's edge. Once all visible drops of water are gone, I strop the blade gently for just five easy passes on the leather. The blade then sits open on my dresser for a while before I close it up.
The idea is to dry the micro-serrations, preventing corrosion, but also to do as little violence as possible to those micro-serrations that have been bent askew by shaving.
That's what I do, too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Chandler
I do it because Lynn does ;)
Now, cleaning the razor after the shave on the strop is a good idea. I do a full linen/leather stroping after the shave, maybe a bit less strokes on the leather. But... My friend, a straight razor shaver of 25 years has notted that if you use daily palm rubbing to condition your strop, the oils from the hand, which might be accidic, may corrode the edge faster?? Anyways, I am cleaning the razor afterwards buy stroping few trips on towel over my palm.
Nenad
I think the best source of information comes from the old barber manuals.
These are not just trivial books full of old barber tales, but serious professional texts full of information gathered and tested over years of trial and error. These books were written by those who made shaving with a straight razor their livelyhood, not just a hobby or pastime.
Now, what a barber did, or said, after he left barber college is another thing. Not all professionals practice the sound principles they were taught by their teachers. "A" students as well as "C" students often pass their licensing exams, on the first try.
Therefor, some info passed on by "Joe the Barber" may or may not be accurate, but the info found in the professional text, more likely than not, is accurate and reliable.
I imagine that these debates over what techniques are best, and how to do such-and such, are not new, but were probably going on as long as there have been barbers.
I suggest that this is at least one reason why such a thing as a "Standard Textbook of Barbering" came into exisitense. Probably some in the profession wanted a degree of uniformity and standardization to bring the profession of barbering to a greater level of professionalism and respect. And also to end the debates.
Now, all that being said, I can't find any reference in my "Standard Textbook of Barbering", or the Moler Barbers Manual, regarding the resting of a straight razor. I'll conclude that if resting the razor were really an important issue, it would have been covered in the professional texts. The texts DO mention stropping during the shave. They DON'T mention anything about stropping after the shave, but if it's ok during, then why not after.
I'll even add, at risk of life and limb, that just "doing what works for you" may in fact work for you, but may not be the best policy if you really want to achieve proficiency with a straight razor. I know we are not professional barbers, but I sure want to get the same quality shave as a pro barber would have given.
The old barbers who wrote the texts already figured out what works. Why not follow them? I don't think their teachings will lead you over a cliff into the sea.
I hear the stones headed my way....
Scott
From "The Practice and Science of Standard Barbering," Ken-Delle Barber School, Harrisburg Pennsylvania, 1951, page 56Quote:
Originally Posted by honedright
At least one text recommends stropping after the shave. As you noted, some theorists postulate that this is damaging to the razor, the strop, the shave, etc. However, at least some professional barbers did not think so.Quote:
Care of Razors. Razors will maintain their cutting quality if care is taken to prevent corrosion of the extremely fine edge. After use, they should be stropped and a little castor oil applied over the cutting edge, thus preventing the corrosive action of moisture.
Howard,
Thank you for that info. It fits my conclusion that if it's ok to strop during, then why not after. Interesting to see it backed up in a professional text.
I should point out too, that my deduction (now substantiated by your reference) was based on a fundamental learned from a barber text and not based on the"what works for me" school.
It also shows that information can change, or be added, over time. My texts predate yours by a couple of decades. Still we shouldn't just pull ideas about straight razor use out of thin air. Our methods should be based on sound principles, most of which are covered in the texts.
Now if someone can find a reliable reference for resting the blade between shaves, I'll gladly consider myself corrected.
Scott
It just seems to me that if moisture is left on the razor after shaving though it would seem that stropping would remove that moisture or so it made sense 100 years age with better magnification we know that the surface water will quickly evaporate anyway but the moisture that will start the corrosion process is the small stuff that settle in the striations and fins and imperfections in the edge and I don't think all the stropping in the world is going to remove it. Hopefully some oil placed on the edge will displace it but you never know. I have a razor that has an area near the toe of the blade but away from the edge that is kind of ,well, abraided and the last time I used it even though I use liberal amounts of sterol on it it had develped into a rust spot. I cleaned it up and used some Russells rust free on and it seems to protect it better. So my point is once moisture gets into microscopic areas its almost impossible to get it out.
Also as to the old barber texts written 100 or more years ago remember at one time the medical textbooks recommended bleeding people. It was state of the art thinking. As time goes on we improve our understanding of things and practices that were thought of as deregeur need to be updated and changed.
thebigspendur,
I agree, times change, and so does our information base. But don't forget, we are talking about the exact same tool used by those barbers 100 years ago. The straight razor, and I would say it's use and care, hasn't changed that much, if at all. And, I would say, that those old barbers, when it came to using the straight razor, probably had it down pat. Would you agree?
I would further add that with the decline of barbershops and their services, really taking off after WWII and peaking during the 1960's and 70's, the knowledge base regarding straight razor use has declined as well. Thanks to SRP some of this knowledge is being rekindled, but I think we should still be looking back to the old texts.
Scott
I have seen pics of the instructions that came with two different vintage razors that instruct the user to strop the razor after the shave.Quote:
Originally Posted by alfborge
Just my two cents,
It appears that people have been shaving many different ways for a long time. Some of them have been letting their razors rest for a week between shaves. Some have used the same razor every day for years. Some strop after a shave. Some don't.Quote:
Originally Posted by randydance062449
As far as I can tell none of them have had a razor explode or had their face fall off from incorrect practice.
Nice observation. I'll make sure I follow one of these non-exploding techniques. I'll probably find one practice I feel comfortable with and follow it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Howard Wallace
THe advice about stropping comes from no less than Dovo itself: see paragraph 5 at http://www.dovo.com/e/seiten/faq.html#2. So, the simple answer is that it is not bad advice.
Stropping too soon after a shave will result in unnecessary removal of material and will shorten the life of a razor. What does that mean? A razor that is well taken care of could last three lifetimes. You do this stropping approacjh and you may actually outlive your razor.
Why would you want to strop that way? The best explanation I've heard is that it cleans the edge and squeezes out moisture, avoiding microscopic oxidation. That sounds pretty good to me, because I've had to remove a lot of material from edges to get past oxidation. So, this one may actually be a standoff.
We have to give some credence to Dovo (unless you're a skeptic and believe that they're trying to get us to oxidize our edges so they can sell more razors). So, I did some experimenting. With all my razors, I carefully dried the edges with a towel (using side pressure and being careful not to dull the edge) and sprayed with Clippercide after use (it contains a penetrating lubricant). Some razors I put away and don't use them again for months. But when I take one of those out I check it under a microscope for oxidation. I haven't had it on a single razor.
What I do now is strop only before a shave and don't reuse a razor for at least 3 days. Careful drying and Clippercide follow every shave. And maybe some of my razors will make it to my great grandson.
That's exactly the reason I went looking for other information. They only mention stropping before and during the shave. Not stropping after is consistent with the resting theory.Quote:
Originally Posted by honedright
Dovo is a pretty good source for this kind of information, since they are the largest manufacturer. As I said before, they tell you to let the razor rest. So, after some experimenting, that's what I do.
But we need to focus this whole discussion. It's almost like trying to figure out the number of angels that will fit on the head of a pin. There are plenty of razors on Ebay that are 150 years old, and they may even have oxidized edges. We've seen them. A little hone work gets you down to clean material, and you're back in business for another 150 years. On the issue of wasting razor material, I've seen more material wasted by poor honing than any other way. How about all those tapered toes and ground down spines?
So, isn't it all academic?
Use either approach and you're right. By the time that razor wears out, guys may no longer be shaving. Just enjoy the razor and the shaving experience.
DOVO faq puts it like this;
"DOVO straight razors are whetted in the factory for use (whetting on leather by hand). If you own a suitable strop, you should nevertheless take into account that the razor must first "rest" after use. After the razor has been carefully rinsed and dried, it should not be used again for at least 24 - 48 hours because the fine "fin" on the cutting edge straightens up again extremely slowly. If the razor is stropped too soon (or stropped incorrectly by moving it backwards and forwards without turning it over), the "fin" which is necessary for a close shave breaks off. Between six and fifteen shaves are possible without stropping in between."
6-15 shaves out of an razor without extra stropping? :roflmao and then to imply that someone would move the razor back and forth withould turning it over, well, words escape me :shrug:
I quote another sentence from DOVOs faq;
"There is no generally valid rule for the whetting (stropping) of straight razors; in many cases, it is sufficient to draw the razor lightly over the ball of the thumb, especially when it has been left unused for several days between shaves."
Now can someone explain that to me:thinking:
I would like to see more evidence than this to change my practices. I never oil my razors even when they will be left for up to a year sometimes. I have yet to find a rusted razor or one that has lost it's edge from my before&after routine stropping.
It seems to me that if the edge is that weakened by shaving, then proper stropping would remedy this. In 25 years of SR shaving, I have yet to be let down by this technique. I highlight that to show that it is one method amoungst many systems devised for stropping.
"Can ther be only one" :nj
PuFF
Arthur Boon also says you don't need to strop every time if you let your razors rest:
"STROPPING, GENERAL When you shave, the cutting edge gets somewhat misaligned microscopically. It looks like microserrations, bending aside irregularly. If you put the knife away, the cutting edge stretches ('grows') spontaneously within 24 hours. After 3 or 4 shaves it should be aligned a little bit again and therefore you must strop."
Has anyone here experimented with this method? Clearly some old-timers did it this way, and it's not just some sort of confusion at Dovo...
Reading that kinda throws into question the whole idea of stropping after the shave. Heck stropping at all. I'd say this was wrotten by somebody who doesn't know what they're talking about and should ALL be discounted. Either that or we're all pretty ignorant. Why do barbers keep strops around at all? Special occasions? :thinking: :shrug:Quote:
Originally Posted by PuFFaH
X
It does sound like fantasy. But Boon knows what he's talking about right?
Yeah, Boon should be a pretty trusted source, but he doesn't say anything crazy. Perhaps something for discussion, but that's all.
X
I think an experiment is brewing. I think I'll let a few blades rest for 48 hours and see how it goes. Shouldn't be difficult for all of us to try it. No stropping. The edge I'll evaluate will be a carbon steel razor.
The razors I will rotate will be my Henkels carbon steel on its 10th shave, a Dovo Inox stainless on its 6th shave and my new Renaissance on its 2nd shave (which isn't wicked sharp yet, but is shaving).
Whatcha guys think? No stropping for a while? Two weeks maybe?
Why bother, after all we are talking about stropping a razor not rebuilding your car's engine. It takes under 5 minutes so who cares... I never use the same razor two days in a row and I strop before each shave, works for me.:y
I'm into this experiment.
I'm with Rich on this one.
The quote from Dovo is the one I was talking about, but I've seen the same thing mentioned in other places. Boon is one of them.
I don't think anyone is saying that you don't have to strop if you let the razor rest for 48 hours. The way I understand it is that the microserrations will come back to close to their stropped condition after 24-48 hours. If you strop then, you'll just push the fin a short distance when you strop, and you'll be back to your shaving sharp edge. However, if you srop right after the shave you will be pushing the microserrations a large distance, which causes metal fatigue (like breaking a tin can lid by repeated bending), and eventual breaking of the microserrations.
I never tried the 6-10 shaves without stropping. I always thought it was a mistake and they were talking about honing (refreshing the edge). Like Rich, I never use the same razor within 48 hours, but I always strop before I shave.
I have to say that I'm skeptical that you could shave 6-10 times without stropping, just by not using the razor for 48 hours. I think the razor would be useable without stropping, but it would deteriorate more with every shave. Maybe you could tolerate a few inferior shaves, but why bother?
I'm always up for an experiment, but I don't use any one razor often enough to do this one.
heres a question from a newbee but its relevent to this discussion:
If it is best to let the razor rest, how many shave ready razors did those old time barbers keep around for each days use?
One for each client?
One for the day?
I tend to think that the number would be close to the later as even back when these were common household items they were not cheep, and barbering has never been a rich mans trade.
What was good enough to give a professional shave to a descerning gentleman would be good enough for me.
The manual that came with my new Henckels Friodur recommends stropping 10-15 laps before and after the shave.
You have agood point. I used to go to an old barber and he only used a few razors in a day. Also, it was not unusual for him to strop mid-shave. If the microserrations are misaligned, how does the razor know if you're stropping mid-shave or after the shave?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wildtim
Well I tried it 3 times with one razor, which is not enough for a good experiment but I'll post my observations anyway. I shaved with the same carbon steel razor for 3 shaves, each 3 days apart, without stropping. During each shave, towards the end the shave became uncomfortable. At the beginning of each shave, after 72 hours rest the shave was again good, atleast the cutting ability of the razor was. But it was not as nice and smooth as stropping provides. The cutting ability was fine, the comfort was not. I surmise that stopping realigns the fin and smooths the edge for comfort and that the fin may actually realign itself after resting.
Additionally, on day 2 I cut myself. I haven't done that in well over a year. I have to admit though that I did make a mistake, so that may have no effect.
It felt like the edge was realigned but not as smooth and aligned as it would feel had I stropped. It felt a little like back in the day when I didn't know how to hone as well as I do now.
That's a great experiment, Alan! And I think the results are pretty convincing.Quote:
Originally Posted by AFDavis11
It supports Dovo's recommendation not to strop at the end of a shave, because the edge is too misaligned and you'll end up breaking the fin, and honing a lot more than you have to. But after the edge recovers, it's only slightly misaligned and can be stropped.
I also realize why barbers stropped mid-shave. The idea was not to let the edge get too misaligned. Then, they could use it all day.
So, should you strop at the end of the shave to squeeze out moisture and clean the edge? You can if there's not a lot of misalignment. And if you've got a tough beard and always have a misaligned edge after a shave, strop mid-shave so you can strop at thend of the shave.
Those conclusions make a lot of sense and have helped clear up a lot of confusion for me regarding edge re-alignment and stropping. Cheers guys! :bowQuote:
Originally Posted by Joe Lerch
James.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Lerch
Excelent logic it makes sense, uses all the available facts and explains the reasoning behind common belief. We have a winning theory:tu
It may well be that an error in translation is the cause of all this. I could not find the original German version of the DOVO FAQ thing to check.Quote:
Originally Posted by PuFFaH
The German word "abziehen" is used for both whetting and stropping. The context gives you the clue as to the meaning of the word. A translator who is not familiar w/ stropping and honing may easily get it wrong. 6-15 shaves between 2 honing sessions is not that unusual.
That's what I thought, but it also seems you could go at least 3 shaves without stropping (why?), if you let the razor rest.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kees