Illinois Razor Strop Company

I had a very interesting conversation this morning with Mr. Ed Simon at Fromm International. Mr. Simon has been involved in razor strop production since the 1940's and probably knows more about the subject than anyone. His father was the founder of the Illinois Razor Strop Co. in 1907.
Apparently I was very lucky to get a hold of him as he's not often available.

I picked Ed's brain for about 15-20 minutes. He said he was recovering from surgery and was still a little woozy so I took it easy on him. I could have gone on for hours asking him questions. He's a very nice, patient gentleman.

I suggested that he write down everything he knows about strops and make a pamphlet. I told him what happened at the American Hone Company and he agreed that it would be a good idea to create an informational pamphlet on strops for collectors, home users, etc.
Next year is IRS's 100 year aniversary and he might do something for that. I also suggested a 100 year aniversary razor strop. They liked that idea too, so we'll see.

One little tid-bit I got from him is that the razor should be stropped with more pressure on the down stroke (with the hide grain) than on the up stroke (against the grain) based on how the grain runs on your particular strop. According to Ed the grain should run from top to bottom. You have to inspect your strop to know for sure. I was a little suprised by this, but plan on trying it. I asked him about uneven wear on the blade from altering pressure on strokes. He said it would only matter if there were some abrasive cutting agent on the leather. For an unpasted strop there wouldn't be any appreciable difference. The idea is to not lift the nap of the leather by going heavily against the grain, but you do want to achieve some draw on the blade while stropping with the grain. I propose that a few of us try this out to see if it makes a difference in shaving.

Also, if using a pumice stone to lightly dress a strop, rub the strop from top to bottom only, and not in the other direction back up the strop (in other words, rub only with the grain, not against). For breaking in he seemed to favor sanding with a fine grit paper and/or frequent hand dressing to smooth out the strop. He also mentioned using "heavy" shaving lather during break-in.

And he mentioned something about the superior abrasive quality of linen over cotton in the manufacture of canvas strops. This may help clarify the intended purpose of using the linen when stropping.

It was trully a pleasure to speak with this man and I feel very luck to have had the opportunity.

Scott

Scott, Thanks for sharing some of your conversation with Mr. Simon. I've been impressed with the Illinois Strops I've used.

Excelent contribution Scott!! I think we should collect as much information as possible from guys like Ed Simons on anything regarding straight razors, their paraphernalia and use. Guys like Ed have undoubtedly a wealth of knowledge based not only on their own experience but also on experience passed down for generations.

Whether we like it or not: straight razor shaving is an art on the brink of extinction kept alive by a relatively small, I understand growing, number of enthusiasts.

Why not ask him to become an honorary member of SRP, he migth be willing to make a contribution to the strop forum on a regular basis.

Just to focus on on bit: I do notice that, on the down-stroke (with the grain of the leather), I tend to feel less draw; it is more like that "glass strop" feeling. I find I unconsciously am applying greater pressure on that down-stroke, and have to work consciously to try to even out the pressure. Mr. Simon's remarks suggest that it's okay to lay on a tad more pressure on that down-stroke, in order to "even out" the actual draw.

This is with a pair of Lynn-honed razors that still pass my sharpness tests, and a (lower-end) Illinois strop.

I hope Mr. Simon takes my suggestion to heart and does record his knowledge for posterity. It would be an invaluable resource to us all.

I thought it interesting, he did lament a bit on the decreased quality of the current IRC strops due in part to the inavailability of some materials such as linen hose and cordovan shell.

Along those lines, he mentioned that the cordovan strops were the best ever produced for hollow ground razors, and that the Russian strop is best for wedges, "that were used in schools," due to the increased draw.
So after hearing that, I sent an email off to the Horween Leather Company asking about their "genuine cordovan shell" leather. I don't know if anyone in this group has talked to them yet, but I was interested to know if their current product is suitable for strops. This is the same company that supplied leather to IRS in 1907.

Also, regarding his suggestion on using "heavy" lather, I'm re-exploring it's use as a breaking-in / conditionng treatment for strops. I've done the breaking-in using lather and a bottle, but never the overnight treatment. So last night I covered my leather strop with very thick lather (William's) and let it sit until this morning. I actually like the results. I'm guessing the sodium cocoate and tallowate, as well as the glycerine in William's is good for the leather. I think it also improved the draw on the strop. I also like the "back-to-basics" feel of using the lather.

Scott

Scott,
The Cordovan leather is basicaly from the cheeks of a horses butt. You get two oval pieces, one from each cheek. It is very expensive leather and only yieldsan oval roughly 14" x 18" or so. Pretty much just enough to do a single very nice dress shoe per cheek. Last price I got on really nice stuff was about $70 per oval and it is still not enough to make a single good strop from.

I did try other similar horse leather pieces but the surface markings and cracking didn't yield enough to make it a worthwile route. I got maybe 2 decent strips cut from a $35 to $40 piece.

Tony Miller

I understand that the 24" cordovan strops were made from leather that came from large draft horses which provided the size required. Have the number of draft horses (Percheons, Clydesdales) dwindled that much in the last century?

Scott

Geeeez . . . and all this time I've been feeling bad for the badgers!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by honedright

I understand that the 24" cordovan strops were made from leather that came from large draft horses which provided the size required. Have the number of draft horses (Percheons, Clydesdales) dwindled that much in the last century?

Scott

---

I think the uses for the horses have changed and therefore the availablity of the hides. In early times, well into the 1900s draft horses were used for much hauling as well as agricultural use in plowing, etc... They were work horses, beasts of burden really and when the were retired or died their meat and hides were used for whatever they could. Today, although the magnificent horses are still plentiful they are privately owned on farms and for show. When they pass or are put down they would rarely be sold having basically serving as pets and loved by someone.

My daughter owns 7 quarter horses and they are as dear to her as any house pet and animals like this never enter the recycling market when they die.

Tony

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tony Miller

My daughter owns 7 quarter horses and they are as dear to her as any house pet and animals like this never enter the recycling market when they die.

---

Do you think your daughter would notice if just a strip of hide were missing one morning? :hmmm:

Tony, One thing I've been meaning to ask you. The Illinois strops I've seen have separate handles for the canvas and the leather, allowing them to be pulled taut individually. The strop I got from you (which I like very much) has the canvas and leather attached at both ends, so the shorter one will be pulled tight but the (ever so slightly) longer one will have some slack. Why did you choose this design?

Tony, what about linen hose? Have you tried sourcing that?

I use linen (cotton) on all of my strops. I used to buy a certian weight from Tilly when it was available and have finally found a direct source right from the mill. I have a variety of weights and widths. Not easy stuff to find.

The material Illinois uses is flat weave, like mine, not tubular but they inpregnate or coat it to achieve the super stiff feel. Mine has a firm body but a soft napp to it. I also have one now that has a slicker finish much like it has been waxed but it is simply a smooth "ironed" type finish.

It seems that quite a variety of material will work. Jemico strops use a very soft loose weave linen, Illinois uses what feels like a hard starched material and mine is like Baby Bear's Porridge......."just right" <g>.

Tony

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Howard Wallace

The strop I got from you (which I like very much) has the canvas and leather attached at both ends, so the shorter one will be pulled tight but the (ever so slightly) longer one will have some slack. Why did you choose this design?

---

Howard,

In different climates and humidity the two pieces of the strop may seem slightly different. The idea is to pull just enough that both become taught and you will have the correct tension. If for some reason one has stretched too much and you cannot get them taught let me take a look at it and make it work for you. All of mine are still fine but occasionally a piece may have more give in it than others.

I am adding some different hardware options on my strops, mainly the more basic models to make them lok even nicer. I may change the bottom attachment though now that I hear about this.

Thanks,
Tony

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tony Miller

In different climates and humidity the two pieces of the strop may seem slightly different. The idea is to pull just enough that both become taught and you will have the correct tension. If for some reason one has stretched too much and you cannot get them taught let me take a look at it and make it work for you. All of mine are still fine but occasionally a piece may have more give in it than others.

---

Tony,

On my strop the linen is slightly shorter than the leather, so the leather never becomes completely taut. However, the strop still functions well to keep my razors sharp, and that's all I ask of it. I wouldn't take the trouble, nor bother you, to adjust it.

An easy adjustment feature might be something to consider when you're thinking of new designs though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tony Miller

I use linen (cotton) on all of my strops.
Tony

---

Tony, ever considered using real linen? Ed Simon indicates it is more abrasive:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by honedright

I had a very interesting conversation this morning with Mr. Ed Simon at Fromm International.

And he mentioned something about the superior abrasive quality of linen over cotton in the manufacture of canvas strops. This may help clarify the intended purpose of using the linen when stropping.
Scott

---

Linen has been available (especially in Europe) much longer than cotton, so the old barbers must have used it instead of cotton.

Linen (Flax) and Canvas (Hemp) are two most used materials for the "other" side of the strop. They have unique properties for maintaining and preparing the edge for the leather strop. While Linen was more available to the states, the Canvas was used more in Europe, and today, DOVO is still using Hemp for the canvas side of their strops.

Flax fiber properties:
When adequately prepared, linen has the ability to absorb and lose water rapidly. It can gain up to 20% moisture without feeling damp. When freed from impurities it is highly absorbent and will quickly remove perspiration from the skin.

It does not stretch and is resistant to damage from abrasion.

Linen is relatively easy to take care of since it resists dirt and stains, has no lint or pilling tendencies and can be dry cleaned, machine washed or steamed.

It can withstand high temperatures and only has some moderate initial shrinkage.

Due to its strength, in the Middle Ages linen was used for shields and gambeson.

Irish linen is the best wrap of pool/billiard cues, due to its absorption of sweat from hands.

Paper made of linen can be very strong and crisp, which is why the United States and many other countries print their currency on paper that is made from 25% Linen and 75% Cotton.

Hemp fiber properties:

70% of the Cannabis plant's total weight is made up of the 'hurd' or woody inner core.

The silica leached from soil by the plant combined with unslaked lime (calcium oxide) forms a chemical bond similar to cement which is both fire and waterproof.

It was used to make the first pieces of fabric ever found and was therefore also used as the first material for paper. It was used to make canvas, and the word itself is derived from cannabis.

Hemp rope is notorious for breaking due to rot. Hemp rope rots from the inside out, and thus the rope looks good until it breaks. Hemp rope used in the age of sail was protected by tarring.


Nenad

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kees

Tony, ever considered using real linen? Ed Simon indicates it is more abrasive:
Linen has been available (especially in Europe) much longer than cotton, so the old barbers must have used it instead of cotton.

---

Kees,
Sadley though the manufacturers and mill only weave the material in cotton now days.
Do remember though that Ed Simon, a valuable resource I admit is recalling the good old days. I don't think you will find any maker out there doing things this way today simply because the materials are not available. Tubular "hose" woven cloth, linen belting, horsehide, etc...... When the large market nearly vanished those items stopped being needed or made. It is increasingly hard to source many of the fine components any more.

Tony

There are mills that still produce fine 100% linen textiles, such as Thomas Fergusons in Ireland. Now would, or could, they produce linen hose? I sent an inquiry asking them, but haven't heard back yet.

My guess is that, if they can make it, it would be very expensive as most custom ordered items are. I read that linen is also processed in China. Anyone want to go over there and try and have linen hose made?

I'm sure that if someone really wanted, all of the high quality old materials could be brought back into production, but would it be worth the time, trouble and expense? It'll probably never happen as long as there are suitable, cheaper alternatives, and there is a relatively small demand.

Scott

Tony, if you have problems finding Hemp or Flax, you can try searching for hemp in the painter's supply store, as the paintings are still painted on hemp canvas. The texture is not so fine, and it might be suitable for the strop's canvas side. I have a piece at home, I just have to find it :thinking:

Nenad

Nenad,
The problem is finding it already woven into a neat strap withour trying to bind edges etc.... which don't hold up well or look neat.

Yes, one could have anything made to order but cost is an issue. Even buying a standard size as I do subjects me to a minimum length which is a LOT of linen. Remember, we are serving a very small market here. Even my minimum on a standard size lasts me 6 to 9 months and I make a lot of strops.
To have a mill setup for a certain specialty would require thousands of yards to be purchased.

Tony

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tony Miller

Kees,
Sadley though the manufacturers and mill only weave the material in cotton now days.
Do remember though that Ed Simon, a valuable resource I admit is recalling the good old days. I don't think you will find any maker out there doing things this way today simply because the materials are not available. Tubular "hose" woven cloth, linen belting, horsehide, etc...... When the large market nearly vanished those items stopped being needed or made. It is increasingly hard to source many of the fine components any more.

Tony

---

Tony,

I just came across this as a potential source for linen: http://www.redtrader99.com/hones.html. Thought you might be interested.

Kees,
Tilly and I go way back! I bought many a yard of linen form her my first year in business. Nice material and an ever nicer lady to deal with. As you can see it is not exactly inexpensive stuff.

Thanks,
Tony

Can those that know explain these terms used for leather tanning:?



-full grain
-vegetable re-tanned
-fat liquored
-mill dyed
-pasted or toggled
-hand glazed
-aniline or pigment finish
-cementable

Very confusing:thinking:

PuFF