Added Linen. Improvement?

I have been using only leather for a few months in an attempt to reduce the variables. My plan has been to start using the linen at some point and see if I can detect a difference.

So I've been shaving with the same razor the last two weeks. My routine has been 60 on leather before every shave. Two days ago I shaved and afterward I decided to try out the linen. So after the shave I did maybe 10 strokes on linen, and 10 to 20 on leather before putting the blade away.

Today I shaved again with the same blade. I gave it a good stropping on leather. Lathered and did two passes.

After both shaves I had my wife touch my face. For the first shave, her response had been that I "have gotten closer" in the past. Then today she said that my face felt "softer" than two days ago. She then offered to resign as my post shave face tester, but I declined her resignation and said she will stay in the position.

I think I'm going to be using the linen more in the future. It sure didn't hurt anything.

Michael

I started with linen and moved away from it, shaves have not been quiet as comfortable, i'll be going back to it...just my experiment though.

Just out of curiosity, what strop are you using?

Tony miller steerhide

Michael

I found that linen seemed a bit harsh on my blades, micro-chipping them. I can't prove that the linen was the culprit, but the problem has not resurfaced since I went back to plain leather only.

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Originally Posted by ace

I found that linen seemed a bit harsh on my blades, micro-chipping them. I can't prove that the linen was the culprit, but the problem has not resurfaced since I went back to plain leather only.

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That's a very interesting observation! On one of my (few) razors I've suspected the same thing. I like using my cotton canvas strop, but only use it when a the razor no longer instantly "catches" then cuts my whiskers. I wonder if that catching behavior is from some sort ot "texture" being added to the edge - perhaps micro-chips?

I'm using a vintage strop or a newer Tony Miller. The linen always seems to help. 15-30 linen/50-60 leather. So far I don't think it's made any of my edges worse.

A couple light passes on linen then many on leather.

Nice linen (fabric) will remove cruft that you do not want
on the leather.

I am a friend of a dirty canvas strop. Over time canvas will
get grey and better. I am a fan of sub micron spray
on canvas. It very much improves the smoothness of the shave.

Use a gosh light touch on both the canvas and the leather...
Most fabric is "rough" and will over work harden the thin
edge. This can look like "micro chipping" just like a wire
coat hanger bent too much the steel with break off.

On my favorite strop I have very much abused the canvas
with my DMT and knocked most all the bumps down by
20% or so.. It used to buzz and whistle on razors with a
narrow spine now it purrs. The seat belt nylon canvas
options on some vendor strops should purr even softer.

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Originally Posted by ace

I found that linen seemed a bit harsh on my blades, micro-chipping them. I can't prove that the linen was the culprit, but the problem has not resurfaced since I went back to plain leather only.

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Nothing can ever be proven, because the word itself denotes an absolute state, i.e. it has always been so in every case in the past, is so in every case in the present, and will always be so in every case in the future. The historical record is incomplete and sometimes inaccurate, the present is underreported and usually inaccurate, and the future is unknown to everyone. Ergo NOTHING can ever be "proven." These conditions make the word "proven" useless and misleading.

Well, I think we need a 'yes, quite' reply to Maple's esoteric philosophy, and then we all need to move forward...

I do 30/70 canvas/leather and always have.

I didn't really know why. I read the other day that canvas warms the steel to make it more malleable for the leather. Makes sense, but I don't know. Heaps of variables, and I think dragging a She Who Must Be Obeyed into the mix just complicates it; do She Who Must Be Obeyeds EVER give a straight answer? Whenever I ask mine if she agrees I'm getting more attractive as I age it seems the answer is not as straight forward as one would hope...

I'm with Carl on this one. I also do a 30 linen and 60 leather stropping routine before each and every shave for the simple reason that it is what I was taught to do. Maybe before my next shave I'll skip the linen and see how it goes. It'll be a first for me.

I don't go with the theory of linen warming the steel. It seems to me that any heat would quickly dissipate in the time it takes to switch to leather. And rubbing the leather also warms the blade anyway.

Michael

I do 15-20 on canvas then 60-70 on leather. My shaves are much better since starting this. One thing I've noticed, though, is that my Dovo is very sensitive to the amount of pressure I use, although the others don't seem quite so much. Lighter is better.

I add linen, about 60 passes, when leather alone stops working. I do this maybe once every few weeks. I sometimes use linen if my strop is having trouble "setting" the edge after honing. So usually 60 after the first shave and 60 every three weeks afterward.

One thing I know as "I can see it" something comes off on the linen, that I don't particularly want embedded in my leather, that is a fact in my mind, I have the strops and the pics to prove it (that was for MLA :) just messing with ya brother)

Now the "Better Shave" argument has been going on for years and honestly I can't tell the difference in the shave myself so that is of no issue to me.

I got in the habit of always using Linen after honing because if there is a weak spot or flaw in the edge that your eyes/tests miss the Linen will find it, basically IMHO if the edge is too fagile for Linen stropping then the edge is too fagile.. (that might be for another thread)

Count me in the 25/50 Linen/Leather before each shave club...


-HOWEVER-

If were using the same razor everyday I could be convinced that there is no time to build up the micro-corrosion on the edge that the Linen seems to remove, just another thought..

I use linen every shave as I feel there's a marked improvement. As Alan pointed out, try increasing your linen count if you feel your edge is starting to taper off a bit - that works very well too.

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Originally Posted by mjsorkin

I don't go with the theory of linen warming the steel. It seems to me that any heat would quickly dissipate in the time it takes to switch to leather. And rubbing the leather also warms the blade anyway.

Michael

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Yeah, agreed on that.

In regards to Maple's experiment idea, the problem for me when I consider these sorts of ideas (and I do), I always desist as there's a lot of variables. For instance, for years I've written down every set and rep of my workouts. I have quite a number of note books. I time myself exactly 1.5 minutes between each set. My workouts can be better or worse than the last. I never know if it's my mood, the temperature, the food I have for breakfast, lunch or mid afternoon snack, the 1/2 a carton of beer I drank on the weekend, or what. I CAN make some guesses, but I can't REALLY peg it. I think for many doing an experiment may not actually determine exactly what the difference, if any that is perceivable, is.

However, having said that, I may just go right ahead and make a note to join Maple in his experiment and just do my 'standard' 70 on leather tomorrow and dispense with the linen.

This comes at a good time, as I'm going to get a new strop, and considering using my Dovo linen/leather as a pasted strop (on the canvas of course). I was going to give the Dovo to my son, but he's happy stropping on his belt, the damn hippy!

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

One thing I know as "I can see it" something comes off on the linen, that I don't particularly want embedded in my leather, that is a fact in my mind, I have the strops and the pics to prove it (that was for MLA :) just messing with ya brother)

Now the "Better Shave" argument has been going on for years and honestly I can't tell the difference in the shave myself so that is of no issue to me.

I got in the habit of always using Linen after honing because if there is a weak spot or flaw in the edge that your eyes/tests miss the Linen will find it, basically IMHO if the edge is too fagile for Linen stropping then the edge is too fagile.. (that might be for another thread)

Count me in the 25/50 Linen/Leather before each shave club...


-HOWEVER-

If were using the same razor everyday I could be convinced that there is no time to build up the micro-corrosion on the edge that the Linen seems to remove, just another thought..

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Sorry to quote this whole thing, but I think for me this makes it much clearer in my mind. I think I might save this to my computer...

Started using linen about a month ago. Mainly to 'clean off' the blade before I go to my good leather strop. Seems to have been positive(?). As a I don't use the same razor everyday it's hard to tell.

Carl,

I agree with you. Whatever you or I do as an "experiment", it's not really going to be very scientific. And the results are going to be entirely subjective.

It's trial and error. Over time by trying new things and isolating variables as much as I can, I do learn things with reasonable certainty.

The main piece of data that I got from this "experiment" was that using linen didn't ruin my edge after one use. The more I use linen, the more I may find out. In the end though, it's just trial and error.

Michael

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Originally Posted by mapleleafalumnus

Nothing can ever be proven, because the word itself denotes an absolute state, i.e. it has always been so in every case in the past, is so in every case in the present, and will always be so in every case in the future. The historical record is incomplete and sometimes inaccurate, the present is underreported and usually inaccurate, and the future is unknown to everyone. Ergo NOTHING can ever be "proven." These conditions make the word "proven" useless and misleading.

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Is that the same as: "there's No Present'? As soon as it happens it's the past and if you think about it, it's the future? Remember, Be there now!

What I find particularly interesting about this topic is that there has always been controversy surrounding it. In the 1961 barber manual excerpt on honing and stropping , that I frequently link to, here, they say that this is an issue that is debated amongst barbers. The manual says that a razor should always be stropped before shaving without exception but there are differing opinions on whether linen is necessary or not.

The manual recommends leather only if the razor is fresh off of the hone but always strop before a shave, and to do linen/leather if the razor has been shaved with last time around. I have experimented with this and early on if I honed a razor and went leather only it would usually not pass HHT. If I did the linen first it would usually pass HHT following the leather. So for a long time I always did linen leather, off the hones and between shaves.

Then, a couple of years gone by, I got curious about leather only after the hones and decided to try it again. I guess either my honing, my stropping , or both improved because for quite some time I do leather only after the hones and my razors do HHT 99% of the time.

When I read Lynn and Glen post about steel embedding in the strops it really freaked me out. I haven't noticed this phenomenon. Thinking about it I figured out that because both of them hone way more razors than the average shaver ..... and obviously strop the 'way more razors' it is not hard to understand why they have this happening. I also rotate between an assortment of strops which probably helps. Anyway, this is a heck of a hobby ain't it ? Lots more fun when you're honing and stropping your blades , looking for that perfect shave .... rather than popping a cartridge or a DE blade into a device.

JimmyHAD --
I'm just hopelessly addicted to stropping -- I can't help myself!

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Originally Posted by mapleleafalumnus

JimmyHAD --
I'm just hopelessly addicted to stropping -- I can't help myself!

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Yeah well ....... these ought to keep you busy for awhile .... :deal:

http://straightrazorpalace.com/strop...ght=experiment

http://straightrazorpalace.com/strop...ght=experiment

http://straightrazorpalace.com/strop...ght=experiment

http://straightrazorpalace.com/strop...g-article.html

And the grand-daddy of all SRP stropping threads:
http://straightrazorpalace.com/strop...ping-king.html

"Hail to the king, baby!" ;)

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Originally Posted by JeffR

And the grand-daddy of all stropping SRP threads:
http://straightrazorpalace.com/strop...ping-king.html

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Oh, god...

(removed duplicate post)

I read the same thread about the embedded metal, so now I give the razor about 20 light linen laps after honing just to get the metal clean, then onto leather. After using 10 linen/ 10 leather to dry it off, and before using 10-30 linen / 50 leather

Yeah, cool, Michael. I actually FORGOT to NOT use canvas this morning, so I guess my experiment will have to wait 'till the morrow... :-)

Ha! That's something I would do

Michael

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Originally Posted by ace

I found that linen seemed a bit harsh on my blades, micro-chipping them. I can't prove that the linen was the culprit, but the problem has not resurfaced since I went back to plain leather only.

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Could it be that you have the residue of past pastes and metal filings that have accumulated on to and in to the linen there. While I haven't tried it on my strop s there may be away of washing it out and the chipping might stop. Any ideas??

I have re-conditioned Linen in the past,,

I used a stiff Nylon scrub brush and powdered laundry detergent to scrub it clean, I dried it inside a flat folded over towel with a weighted board on it..

I used simple plain white Chalkboard Chalk and a few light coats of Aquanet hairspray to set it back up...rub the chalk on, spray lightly, rub the chalk on, spray lightly, rub the chalk on and that should finish it...
I did this on my very first strop several times in the 20+ years before I found SRP, this was what I was told by the Barber who got me started with this crazy way of shaving.. It worked fine

Seriously, you wouldn't believe it. Forgot again. I'm a robot. I'm going right now to make a note.

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Originally Posted by carlmaloschneider

Seriously, you wouldn't believe it. Forgot again. I'm a robot. I'm going right now to make a note.

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Memory is the last thing to go.

Michael

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Originally Posted by mjsorkin

Memory is the last thing to go.

Michael

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No, memory is the 2nd thing to go. I just can't remember what the first is.

Yeah, must be the first, cause everything else is in tip top condition. I'm quite astonishing actually...

I never noticed much improvement with linen; was possibly doing it wrong. When the razor needs linen, I just give it 2 or 3 laps on a barber hone. Works faster for me, YMMV.

Linen does no harm, but it also does nothing good in my opinion except for cleaning the bevel.

Leather is KING. Linen is virtually useless in my opinion.

Attachment 102652

My take on linen is that its primary use is to clean off stuff you don't want on your leather strop. I think it is better to put any leftover shaving soap, oil and any blade oxidation on the linen rather than the leather.

Just my $.02 :)

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

I have re-conditioned Linen in the past,,

I used a stiff Nylon scrub brush and powdered laundry detergent to scrub it clean, .....

I used simple plain white Chalkboard Chalk and a few light coats of Aquanet hairspray to set it back up...
....
It worked fine

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Quality chalk is classic. There are references that describe the use of chalk on vibrating
rotating glass to hone medical microtome blades. In the same article there is a comment
that the edge is "too sharp" for shaving. Today some here call it the darn (*%& Feather edge
or in kinder moments a harsh edge.

Hone dust or chalk they both add to the feel and effectiveness of some strops.
White Dovo strop paste is a mix of diamond and chalk in a waxy base. The need
to paste or not paste a strop is a whole thread on to itself but after honing a
light visit to a pasted strop is a good thing (IMO).

Years ago my barber used a razor for the final tidy up of the back of
my neck and sides (before I had whiskers). His routine was mostly
leather but if the edge was not restored on the leather he would go
to canvas. i.e. with a quick shave test he knew if the razor and the customer
were matched. In the #4 chair was Nick... he was always thrashing his
razor on the strop while the owner in the #1 chair just seemed to strop
and shave. Perhaps Nick was not his real name.....

If I recall he said twelve times more leather than canvas... mostly leather.

And IMO the routine need for chalk or paste is "the old school" that predate modern
water hones. Remember that ultra fine abrasives like submicron diamond are
a modern tool.


So for a shaver:
Canvas to clean the edge as needed and leather to perfect and restore the edge.

And after honing:
Pasted canvas can add a final polish, tidy up the small burrs
left by hones and also soften the edge so it is not too harsh.