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I have a question about pressure when stropping. A lot of articles I've read talk about using no pressure, but from the videos watched it looks like there is some pressure being used:
eg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4W44WFTfqzA
I am am wondering how much pressure is good for stropping and if I am using enough to do a good job. Would appreciate some direction.
Thanks
No pressure is kind of misleading, there should be pressure but not so much to roll the edge.
Unfortunately to figure how much to use you need to practice.
There should be enough pressure _on the spine_ so you can see the strop bend a little bit around the spine.
You should _not_ be able to see the strop bend as it goes around the edge. If you can see it bending, you're pressing too hard on the edge.
I once put a strop down along the edge of a table, and did an X-stroke with a Dovo "Best Quality" razor -- not the thinnest grind. In good light, I could see the whole edge bending as it came off the strop!
A light hand is best.
Charles
If you look at it semantically, no pressure = no contact. You only need enough pressure to maintain contact but that is usually a lot lighter than most beginners think, hence the expression "no pressure".
A lot more pressure than you might think. The "weight of the blade" is a myth. It's the sound. I've never heard anyone talk about the sound a proper stropping makes and using THAT as your guide. You're shooting for that paper tearing sound. More on a hollow and less on the wedge.
+1 with the above. Each razor will sing differently. You'll get use to what's right for each one.
Pressure? Stropping? Go to the Head Master's office straight way boy, and tell him why you're there!...
Now, class, have we done pre-shave preparation yet?
I think if you concentrate on the 'no pressure' concept at first, after a few months you'll understand...Sound is also a good gauge, as mentioned above by Slash, however you need to know the sound each of your razors like if you have a few different styles. The sound my Full Hollow Burrell Top Flight makes is truly astonishing, but so again is the sound from my De Pews near wedge. Nice, pleasant, comforting sounds. You have to know your razor's preferred stropping sound. I find I can't RARELY see the edge that well as I strop, so feel and hearing guide me.
For me, I concentrate on a fully trailing edge. No twist on the tang to force it down, a twist or hold to bring it to the strop so it trails. I also do quite a few laps (30/70).
It's one the principles of marksmanship "The weapon must point naturally at the target with no undue effort on behalf of the firer"...
That's just how I do it and it seems to work quite well for me...
Just use enough to keep the spine of the razor in contact with the leather for the whole stropping stroke. I'd suggest you anchor the strop somwhere around waist high so you are stropping on a relatively flat plane. I found this to be much easier to learn on. And yeah, the guy in the second vid is a good stropper, but don't try to mimick him, you'll destroy your strop, just go slow at first to learn the stroke.
After I put my blade on the strop, I apply light pressure to the spine. That will result in even lighter pressure on the edge. In combination with the right speed of drawing and keeping the spine on the leather at all times, I get a fine edge .
At least this works for me.
The problem is that 'light pressure' is different for everyone, as is drawing speed etc. So you need to practice and find out what works best for you.
The amount of bowing you see in the strop has a lot to do with how "taught" the person is holding the strop.
Experience is the best guide for "how much pressure should be used?" I am not sure there is much of a shortcut for this...I find that more trips across the strop and less pressure yields a sharper edge.
If I may, Binder. Keep a chill until Oct 1st and there will be a big pile of stropping info here. Look for a thread called "Stroptober". Some of the more experienced guys will be stropping for you and it will be discussed in great detail. In my opinion, every blade strops differently, so one must learn to "feel" as one strops. Not too heavy, taught strop, not too tight, not too loose. A matter of feel involved. Different strops and different leathers and different razors. Different requirements. JMO One thing is certain. It is like shaving and honing. No two men do it the same exact way. Techniques differ widely. You will find one which suits you.
I, for one, am looking forward to learning from it. Stropping is the most important part of maintaining an edge and you will gain significant knowledge from it, I promise! ;)
Some would pressure you to use absolutely no pressure, but I'd be hard pressed not to pressure you to use at least a bit of pressure.
I agree - pressure can be useful under the right conditions. It's always the same old story - gaining enough experience to know when and where and what. We can help with advice, but in the end the best teacher is often trial and, I'm afraid to say, error.
James.
Thanks everyone for the advice. I think I have a better idea about stropping. I will keep a lookout for STROPTOBER, that should be interesting.
The thread is already up...but the entries thus far may or may not be helpful (mine is no more than me showing my stropping from several angles)...Quote:
Originally Posted by binder
http://straightrazorpalace.com/strop...st-2012-a.html
It varies with the leather, to me at least. I can keep an edge up for quite a while with horse butt as long as after the first 25 shaves or so, when the edge seems to go a little, I add more pressure to the stropping stroke from time to time. It'll easily push an edge to 50 shaves like that.
I never had the same luck with cowhide, but cowhide isn't as hard, and at least fresh, horse butt has more effect on the edge (so much so that in raw from it's too abrasive for a while).
That's relevant conversation for a horse butt hanging strop. Spine on the leather and entire edge makes contact with the strop during a stroke, with the former being necessary no matter what and the latter being a preference so that the whole razor is evenly stropped without thinking about it.
When I am teaching new guys how to strop I demonstrate and show them that I gauge my pressure based upon the amount of deflection in the strop. I try for 1/2" to 1" of deflection. Of course that assumes that the strop is held taut. But.... I also only use strops with a very slick surface ( mostly vintage horsehise ( shell)), no latigo or crisp cowhide strops.
Using softer leather like cowhide, would someone use less pressure than horsehide. The strop I have is from Whippeddog. I think it is bridle leather.
Thanks
Hmmmm....your doing the same thing I do when starting something new...I over engineer and make things far more complex than they need to be.
So, start by using the same pressure then experiment and adjust from there.
Just be sue to keep both the edge & the spine in contact with the leather during the stroke. Most new guys think the edge is fragile and fail to keep it on the strop. That is the most common mistake, then your wasting your time. The second most common mistake is to use a fast stroke. That leads to lack of control over both pressure and keeping the edge & spine on the strop.
Take it easy, a full round trip lap should take anywhere from at least 1 second to 4 seconds. Enjoy the process, don't rush it.
Well, I have rambled long enough, time to finish my first cup of coffee for the day. :)
Quote:
Originally Posted by binder
I appreciate your post, Randydance. I read in a couple of places that stropping needs to be quick -- round trip in no longer than a second. Since I have only been at this 3 months and consider myself pretty new, I am still taking it slow -- maybe 2-3 seconds. Glad to hear that slower is OK.
I am focused on training muscle memory, keeping the spine on the strop, maintaining a taut strop (too taut, I worry) with the edge trailing in contact all the way. I'm putting a bit more pressure on the spine and on the edge. So far, so good. Paranoid about ruining an edge. I have an old time barber friend who is returning to health and when he is up and about I'm hoping to get more tips from him. I started with an Illinois 361, then a 3" latigo but have pretty much been working on a 3" SRD Premium recently. I accept that stropping is a crucial part of this endeavor but the experiment with getting it right is taking awhile. Worthwhile, I hope.
There are 2 reasons given to strop fast...
1. To get the job done quickly
2. To create heat in the bevel/edge that will invoke the plasticity of steel to more easily burnish the bevel/edge and thus make it smoother & sharper.
Unfortunately this have never been shown to happen. It is purely a theoretical argument.
The downside to rapid stropping is that the risk of making an error greatly increases.
BTW, even with very slow stropping your edge can become so sharp that it will be uncomfortable to use. There is no need for rapid stropping or for rapid honing on a stone.
At first I used very little pressure, about the same as honing so that I would not roll the edge. What I found is that once you get the motion down it will come to you. The pressure should be mostly on the spine and the amount on the edge can then be controlled. You will get to a comfortable level when you get to about 10 thousand laps. Just the fact that you are asking the question of how much pressure means that you will recognize the proper amount of pressure. It will come to you.
Take Care,
Richard
PMFJI --Quote:
Originally Posted by mumpig
You _cannot_ hold the strop too tight. A perfectly-tight strop is equivalent to a paddle strop -- and those work fine. An almost-perfectly-tight strop is equivalent to a loom strop -- and those also work fine.
What will kill the edge is:
. . . putting lots of pressure on the blade (including pressure on the edge), and
. . . having the strop loose, so that it bends around the edge, rather
. . . . . . . than only bending around the spine.
A tight strop, and light pressure on the blade (mostly on the spine) is what you want. It sounds like that's what you're aiming for.
Your barber friend should make all this clear in about two minutes.
Charles
Most strops have a little draw. If it does you would use only enough pressure to feel some draw. Looked at another way, the simplicity of stropping becomes painfully obvious; strop with enough pressure so it feels like you are stropping.
What this means is that when you move the blade down the strop you should feel something, and what that is is stropping. As Randy points out, this effect happens at practically any speed.
Just a point of clarification for the OP.............
Pressure......when I hone I use a 60/40 distribution, 60% on the spine and 40% on the edge ( approx). I try to do the same when stropping.
Taut strop........Yup, a slack strop will dull the edge but please, not so tight that you pull the bolts out of the wall! :)
I posted a video in the Stroptober thread asking about how taught to keep the strop, I keep hearing taught but I guess its like trying to explain what sharp is :)Quote:
Originally Posted by randydance062449
I'll propose (again) one additional reason for "fast" stropping, and that is uniformity. Imagine the variance of the razor as it travels s-l-o-w-l-y along the strop. Wavering here, more pressure here, less there, etc. Even though the variance might be miniscule, it might be enough to matter, especially with multiple passes.Quote:
Originally Posted by randydance062449
There is sort of a natural speed one settles into with stropping, I think - going faster than that feels detrimental to meQuote:
Originally Posted by honedright
Of course speed must match comfort and ability. I'm just pointing out that the slower you go, from point A to B, the more chance there is for little differences in variables such as pressure change, tilt of the razor, etc. to affect the edge. The quicker the swipe from A to B, the less likely anything willl have a chance to change from beginning to end. Of course still accounting for the skill of the person stropping. Also, not implying lightning fast, just fast enough, whatever that might be. And keep in mind, there are two sides to the blade. So not only is it necessary to strop one side of the edge uniformly, you want to strop the other side equally uniform, or as close as possible.Quote:
Originally Posted by hoglahoo
I think this same principle would apply to honing as well.
I'm assuming that uniformity of the edge is important to the overall shave-ability of the razor. Just as with machine made blades. But since we probably don't have the ability for that same, fine precision of a machine, anything we can do to reduce error, I think, would help.
So, I suppose there is a point where if you go too slow you are increasing the chance for error, and if you go too fast the same. You just have to find the right middle ground.