strop scratches

OK, I have enough data now to know I'm not crazy. Here's what's happening:

I'm honing to 12,000, then maybe chromium oxide or not. At any rate the level of scratching on the blade as seen under a microscope has reached a pretty good point, varying on how far I go with the chrome (on glass, by the way). With the chrome on glass, it can reach the point of no scratches at all

Then I strop.

I have two different strops, my belt, some leather strapping not intended for stropping, some misc leather on wood, and newspaper. The razors are a selection, about a dozen of them, all different.

I'm cleaning everything well between steps, including a very complete job when I check with the scope.

No matter what I do, the strops are scratching the blades. After stropping, no matter which blade, no matter which stropping material, the scratch level is back to about what I get directly off an 8000 stone.

I've tried everything, all combinations, and that's what happens, every single time.

Comments? I can't be the only person who ever saw this.

Maybe you need a new clean uncontaminated leather that is intended to be used to strop razors. You don't mention how the razors shave your face

off the existing strops.

Jerry
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Three of the leather strops are new, real commercial strops. One of them I sanded down, just to see if there was something caught in it. Of the bunch, I think that my belt does the cleanest job.

The shave is fine. What I'm wondering is if all of this stuff with fancy and expensive hones above an old fashioned barber's hone (which worked fine for a century) is just a waste of time and money, and an illusion, if we're going to ruin it with a strop.

Ive used a strop for 48 years, never owned a microscope.

I'm thinking people could save themselves some stone money if they did have one and had used it.

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Originally Posted by bobthbarbr

Ive used a strop for 48 years, never owned a microscope.

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You don't know what you're missing ! :rofl2:

Be sure that your strops are clean and uncontaminated by grit. I wipe my blade and hand rub my strop before each use, and if anything begins to feel off while stropping. Tactile and audio feedback while stropping is important. Do your strops feel smooth while stropping, no gritty feel with a nice even draw and the same sound in both directions? Do you protect your strops from dust (swarf, stone grit, etc.) and paste cross contamination?

I have not used a microscope to examin my razor edges so I do not know whether good stropping creates a scratch pattern when blades are honed above 8K.

They can't be any cleaner than brand new, and then cleaned again, just in case, right? And that's why I included various sheets of newspaper, since that seems to be an unquestioned standard around here.

From what I'm reading, I'm gathering that people have been advocating sharpening methods that they've never really examined to see what's going on, on the theory that throwing more money at a problem solves it better? I've noticed something interesting about chromium oxide, too, but I'm not even going to get into that.

Have you tried shaving directly off the hone and comparing it to the shave after stropping?

As you might of read more then a few times if you have been reading about honing the only true test that matters is the shave test. This is normally referenced when someone can't do the hht.

But it also applies here. Studying scratch patterns and the presence of after stropping real doesn't matter to most guys here. Guys on here are looking for the best shave they can get. Guys that are advocating high grit stones and paste have shaved off of 4k, 8k, 10k, 12k, 16k, 30k, 50k and higher grits. They then advocate what gave them the best shave over multiple use, blades and other factors.

If you feel your optimum high grit is 8k great you know what you need and you can save your self money.

Me I like something in the 12 k range at the moment but have used a 4 k and 8k edge comfortably before. I can honestly tell you on my face I can tell the difference. Thats all the examining I need.

I have also used crox and ferox while I can also feel that these edges are sharper on the face I don't recommend them as I feel they leave a harsh edge and a relatively weak edge.

It sounds like an error in the process you use to evaluate scratches. Let's spend some time here. The scratches don't ever "go away" no matter what grit you use. There is a well known optical illusion referred to as "black ice". Could that be what you're seeing? Carefully micro-observe the bevel at various angles before stropping to verify that the scratches are really going away.

What is your hypothsis regarding how the 8 k scratches are getting on the blades? How can the strop scratch the blade and just happen to match 8k?

I suppose they are both pretty smooth but please double check your results. Years ago when I looked at stropping under a scope it looked more like a new cross-hatch pattern, not the angular striations associated with a stone.

All razors honed at 8k or higher do feel the same to me. So you've got that working for your theory.

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Originally Posted by mdarnton

Three of the leather strops are new, real commercial strops. One of them I sanded down, just to see if there was something caught in it. Of the bunch, I think that my belt does the cleanest job.

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I think this may be the culprit, especially if you are seeing an obvious new scratch pattern. I finish on a very fine stone & sometimes I see a random scratch from the strop but not to the degree you describe.

Have you checked after the CrO also ? Strop scratches will also run in the opposite direction to stone scratches. Just something else to check.

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Originally Posted by AFDavis11

It sounds like an error in the process you use to evaluate scratches.

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I really don't think so. I'm doing this pretty critically--give me a bit of credit here. For one thing, the scratches start sparse, about the depth, not the frequency, of 8000 grit. Then as I strop, they increase in frequency. I've tried various angles, and the scratches form at the angles I'm stropping. I'm not a sharpening newbie--I've been doing it for 30 years and Ido know what I'm seeing. And as I said, it's happening with every strop, not just the one I sanded, not just the new ones, the old ones.

What I'm not looking for here is various people who've never bothered to look for themselves telling me I'm imagining things. That's really not very helpful.

I guess I'm going to have to solve this one myself.

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

Have you checked after the CrO also ? Strop scratches will also run in the opposite direction to stone scratches. Just something else to check.

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I have chromed on glass, just to avoid contamination, to the point where there are no scratches at all, and then stropped and watched the scratches form. As I said, on fresh newspaper, too.

How do these scratches affect the edge ? Any visible damage ? Shave test bad ?
Leather does contain silicates so scratches would be obvious on a highly polished bevel but hard for us to get an idea of what you're seeing without microscope pics.

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Originally Posted by mdarnton

I really don't think so. I'm doing this pretty critically--give me a bit of credit here. For one thing, the scratches start sparse, about the depth, not the frequency, of 8000 grit. Then as I strop, they increase in frequency. I've tried various angles, and the scratches form at the angles I'm stropping. I'm not a sharpening newbie--I've been doing it for 30 years and Ido know what I'm seeing. And as I said, it's happening with every strop, not just the one I sanded, not just the new ones, the old ones.

What I'm not looking for here is various people who've never bothered to look for themselves telling me I'm imagining things. That's really not very helpful.

I guess I'm going to have to solve this one myself.

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That's not exactly a great attitude to have when asking for help. I have looked at my blades under a USB microscope after honing, and after stropping. I see scratches off the strop too, but, the shave is significantly more pleasant off leather.

You never answered my question though.

I've looked at blades at all stages of the sharpening process under magnification of up to 1000x.
I have not observed an increase in scratches from stropping on plain leather.

What type of microscope are you using, how is it lit, and what magnification?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mdarnton

From what I'm reading, I'm gathering that people have been advocating sharpening methods that they've never really examined to see what's going on, on the theory that throwing more money at a problem solves it better?

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This is incorrect.

Ok. Since you're tossing me into the group that has never looked at an edge, with a scope, I'll stay out of it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mdarnton

I really don't think so. I'm doing this pretty critically--give me a bit of credit here. For one thing, the scratches start sparse, about the depth, not the frequency, of 8000 grit. Then as I strop, they increase in frequency. I've tried various angles, and the scratches form at the angles I'm stropping. I'm not a sharpening newbie--I've been doing it for 30 years and Ido know what I'm seeing. And as I said, it's happening with every strop, not just the one I sanded, not just the new ones, the old ones.

What I'm not looking for here is various people who've never bothered to look for themselves telling me I'm imagining things. That's really not very helpful.

I guess I'm going to have to solve this one myself.

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I've looked at bevels under all kinds of magnification and have never been able to draw much of a connection between residual scratches in the bevel sides and the quality of the resulting shave. The bevel sides do get shinier as one progresses upward in grit, especially as one approaches and passes 8K. My personal results have never shown any degrading in that shiny effect as a result of stropping. On the other hand, I have not seen any particular connection between a shiny bevel and a good edge. To me, they are two separate issues. It is possible to have a beautifully shiny set of bevel sides that do not meet properly in a good edge when the bevel is not set. I tend to concentrate much more on how sharp the edge appears to be with visual tests and the HHT. I don't have a lot of time for "test shaving", so I use the HHT to save me the time. I've never gotten a positive HHT result that was followed by a less than excellent shave.

Ace, yes, I understand. I'm not implying the shaving is better or worse--I'm just curious about the scratches. This is a technical question, and what is really happening at that level of examination, not one about shave-readiness. Thanks.

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Originally Posted by HNSB

What type of microscope are you using, how is it lit, and what magnification?

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A variety--a 60X stereo scope at work, and a couple of hand-helds in various ranges, none over 60X, with their own lights and other external sources, too. I've been very careful to try all light directions, to highlight any scratching from any direction. The one single thing I'm absolutely sure of is that I'm seeing all there is to see, and every stage in the sharpening process accurately. That's really not the issue. And as I said before, I'm viewing newspaper as a standard, since everyone has access to the same thing, and that's scratching, too.

All of my blades are old ones. Could it possibly be a factor of softer steel? I'm doubting that, but one never knows.

I don't think vintage steel would make any difference. What I can say is that when I first came around there were members who seemed to be saying that removing the previous grits scratch pattern was necessary to achieve a proper edge. I was beginning in honing with a norton 1k, and a 4/8k set.

Wanting a benchmark to compare my own efforts I bought some razors that were shave ready and honed by known honemeisters. Upon microscopic examination with a 40x B&L stereoscope I found that these honemeisters apparently did not concern themselves with removing scratches in the bevel. Since the primary purpose of my honing is to realize a satisfactory shaving edge, I don't concern myself with the scratches at all. YMMV.

As far as I know, newspaper is abrasive to a degree - naturally. I suppose that the act of making and calendering it, running it on rollers in a dusty atmosphere, bundling it up and transporting it to newspaper shops, displaying it, the trip home, etc, etc all add to its abrasiveness. The latter stages perhaps only affect the edges and outer leaves, but machinery wears and produces dust and this would affect all aspects of making it and printing it in the first place.

People have taken advantage of the abrasive nature of newsprint for ages to strop on. Perhaps you have only reinvented the wheel in this case.

The very air holds dust to a greater or lesser degree. Strops left open to the atmosphere are bound to catch dust. If they are protected they will still pick up any residue left on the blade from honing, storage, etc, as well as metal fragments from the blade itself. The finish of the leather may have introduced some abrasive elements - it is tanned in vats - open topped as far as I know, with bits of bark, etc, as the tanning agent. I guess trees are covered with years of dust, and crusty old bark isn't the easiest thing to clean before use.

A leather that has the top milled is likely to have less of this residue than ones that are left fair faced, but risk picking up grit during the milling process. When the grain pattern is impressed it would impress any grit into the leather. Something like a belt that has a surface treatment may not have such characteristics, or be a bit more robust so that grit isn't as easily pressed into the surface.

I examine the bevel while honing using a loupe - after every stone, and again after stropping. Yes - I can see micro scratches after stropping that were not there after the last stone - nothing like an 8k hone would leave, though, more fine and not as densely covering the bevel. I also see what the strop has left on the bevel - fine fibres, a smeary layer from oiled/waxed strops and latigo, etc. I am sure that polishing on a strop probably traps micro-fine detritus in scratches that were already there, in much the same way that some metal polishes make things look worse by leaving a dark deposit in lower areas. As far as I know, those scratches were already there and the strop has highlighted them and partially smoothed them over. I would think the same applies to newspaper - the darker print, in this case.

If you are going to use hi-tech apparatus, perhaps you should also use high tech techniques like clinically clean rooms, air vacuuming, etc. At any rate, you need to find a 'control' to prove your hypothesis, if only to help nail-down the source of contamination.

I'm quite positive that the higher the degree of magnification, the more striations/scratches appear, and that they are about impossible to eliminate no matter what you do. I don't worry about what I can't alter, and I am not sure that my skin is sensitive enough to notice micro-striations anyway. If I get a good shave I am happy - this is the real world, after all. There are much more important things to obsess over.

Regards,
Neil

Thank You, Neil! Very astute observations and explanations. It makes complete sense to me AND gives some things to think about! :D
Finest,
Tom

I agree with AFDavis & Neil, you will never remove all scratches, they are a byproduct of honing & stropping. The scratches you are seeing are inherent in the substate we typically use to strop, leather, balsa, nylon, fabric or even your hand, or a result of airborne dust. Much of dust partical size is larger than .05 chrome ox.

Random scratches will not greatly affect the shave and if you strop on a pasted strop prior to shaving, you can remove most of that stria.

Try a fabric strop of nylon or polyester for cleaning and pasting prior to shaving if you want stria free. The polished bevel is the by-product, of a bevel and edge stropped on high grit paste, not the goal.

The goal, is a highly refined and comfortable edge. To polish the edge we must polish the bevel. The trick is to find the combination that gives the best, most durable and comfortable shave with the least amount of effort.

Once you get your Chrome Ox edges down, try CBN, light years from .50 Chrome edges.

Perhaps it is as simple as: your strop is contaminated with something (have you ever sanded them? perhaps one pce of micro grit is imbedded.
Are you using X strokes? are the edges properly beveled? Just curious.

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Originally Posted by mdarnton

Ace, yes, I understand. I'm not implying the shaving is better or worse--I'm just curious about the scratches. This is a technical question, and what is really happening at that level of examination, not one about shave-readiness. Thanks.

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There has been extensive work done by SRP members examining the various scratch patterns that result from different honing and stropping media. Methodology has ranged from "seat of the pants" up to examination utilizing an electron microscope. A proper search might yield more information than you are receiving based on your earlier posts.

One thing to keep in mind is that all stropping "Scratches" the bevel, one on the reasons on many of the MicroGraph pics that you are going to find with the search Bill mentioned, you will find a comment by me saying that shiny bevels are sure pretty, but meaningless to the feel of the shave..

Stropping on linen and/or leather will leave a hazy finish "Scratches".. Yes even Newspaper

Many types of stone finishes are not "Shiny" either, yet are considered by many to be some of the most comfortable shaves, in fact chasing a Perfect Mirror Bevel might very well lead you to a Fragile, Thin, Weak, Harsh edge :( CBN lends itself to very nice looking bevels, without harshing the edge, but again as soon as you go Linen/Leather is will haze it up again..

Now if you are getting deep Gouges /Scratches then either your strop has issues, or you are doing something drastically wrong while stropping..